Has anyone built a pole building using "bookshelf construction method"?

[anojones]

Well, back to the original question. Our pole barn was built in a "bookshelf" style, around here known as commercial style. Our construction is with 6X6 poles in the ground and a slab poured after the structure was built. Our shop is insulated with fiberglass batts- R18 in the walls which was very easy to do with the bookshelf style. The one issue we had is our poles were 6X6 and the girts were dimensional 2X6, thus the poles were about 1/2" off on the interior of the barn. This is not an issue unless you are finishing the inside, which we did, no extra framing but a little funny looking at the poles. The other issue is using fiberglass you need a good vapor barrier on the warm side so moisture doesn't condense on the metal siding and get the fiberglass wet. Although we didn't have to do extra framing, our sheet rock on the inside is on 24" horizontal "bookshelf" centers and given 12' between posts, there is risk that you might not meet code on the number of screws for sheet rock. I agree with some posts above, that given our insulation/sheet rock and concrete slab, we should have bid out a stick frame on foundation.

 

[BeezFun]

If cost is an issue, another consideration is taxes. I'm in the design stages of putting up a barn, I went to our assessor with 3 different designs, all for a 32'x80' building with gravel floor. For a fabric building the tax cost would be zero because of the way they categorize the structure. For a pole barn with wood siding and metal roof the tax would be about $1000/year. For a stick built building on foundation (but no slab) it would be about $1800/year. So the tax costs of the building exceed the cost of what it will cost me to put it up after about 15 years. Surprised me that they don't factor in whether I build it myself or not: they look up cost to build in a book and that's the tax basis. I told him I could build it for about a third of his cost estimate, said it didn't matter. Also didn't matter that I plan to run about 40amps out there, just enough for lights and a saw if I need to do some repairs. I could run 200A service out there and they consider both to be "electrified". goofy

 

[jimgerken]

Everyone, thanks again for the info.
Rustyiron: I understand your well written description and the ideas to combine the frost wall, the RFH, and the bookshelf wall and it tempts me, but one thing I wonder about. As insulated the way you describe, the edge of the slab is uninsulated. Right? In fact, it seems that the entire frost wall is a thermal bleed. The slab is heated from the embedded hydronic tubing, and the heat spreads out to the colder parts of the slab, one of them being the frost wall, which the entire outside surface of is exposed to the cold air above ground and the frozen soil below ground. Unless I didn't understand properly, which is likely...
COST is of course a big issue. Cost of construction, cost of taxes forever, and cost to heat. I just called the county tax office and confirmed that a "pole building" (the lowest tax cost structure type) is still a pole building if there are steel brackets embedded or bolted to concrete at ground level and poles vertically up from there, and it is then sided with pole building steel siding. No difference between soil embedded poles in the ground and poles bolted thru brackets on top of concrete. That seems very cool, because I can use a frost wall or similar, as long as there are poles and steel, not studs, and cut the taxes to less than half of a stud-built structure. Now I must reconcile the construction cost differences, and the heating cost differences into the equation. More concrete of course, but that cost is being poured into a solid investment in the building quality. Working on details......

GOOD STUFF GUYS !!!

 

[Rustyiron]

Jim, there are a million details that would be hard to describe, but yes I have a thermal break where the slab meets the frost wall, (1"of foam) . I did this from suggestions that I read on another forum - Greenbuildtalk in the radiant section, very helpful bunch there too! I believe that the insulated frost wall helps to keep the cold from migrating in/under your heated slab. It also keeps any moving ground water out and from what I've read , that really carries off our heat. There is a small horizontal "shelf" of 3 1/2" that the slab rests on the fw that is not insulated but I was concerned about the overall slab stregnth. I had a pair of 2x4 laid flat in the forms of the 8"FW at the inside to create a shelf for the slab and rebar to sit on.

 

[jimgerken]

OK, starting to get back to this design. Have been kicking around a variation of an Alaskan slab/slab on grade/frost protected shallow foundation/whatever you want to call it... Picture attached. In the pic, the black cross hatched area represents a single ICF block such as Introduction to Insulated Concrete Forms | Reward Walls. ICF blocks add $1000 to the project, but also supply about $400 worth of foam insulation, so their convenience for forming and rerod placement really only costs $600. I can see lots of forming if not using the ICF, and almost none if using them, so it seems like a great addition for labor reduction. Also, some concrete saving will be possible with the ICF blocks, since the quantity will be so closely predictable using them, as opposed to normal forming technique (mine anyway).
Rerod not shown for clarity, but you can maybe imagine horizontal and vertical sticks in the "wall" part of the drawing. Outside, inside and under the black ICF area, the deep blue color is to represent extruded polystyrene (XPS). Total depth into the ground of the outer XPS is about 24", so this is not a frost wall, although it is somewhat protected. Plenty of insulation on the outside of the foundation and floor, about 4.5 inches thick total, for R value of about 18. R-10 under the slab, which is enough since this is a shop building afterall, and so will not be heated to 72 degrees air temp.
The idea would be to pour the entire ICF building perimeter square with rerod, nearly full of concrete, then backfill the inside and outside of the ICF "form" with aggregate, then pack and level, then the XPS under the floor area on the aggregate, next lay all the floor 1/2 inch rerod on 2 foot grid, wire tie intersections, all set up 1 inch above the surface of the XPS. Then the RFH tubing zip tied to the rebar grid. Then a second pour to the top of the finished floor height. Then metal brackets such as http://www.permacolumn.com/drill_set_models.aspget
which are bolted (hammer drill the holes after the pour) to the surface of the floor to bolt the laminated 3 times 2x6 pole assemblies into. Then the bookshelf wall gets assembled. Pink line is Tyvek outside structure and inside steel siding. Gradeplank shown is not set into poles, but added conventionally.
A big advantage of this is the way the floor and wall float (I bet very little) together. So doors always fit properly all winter long. Floor pour should be way easier than pouring after the building walls are up. The perimeter wall is quite tall and with rerod dependably placed in the trays in the ICF, the wall should be really stiff. Also, I think I have designed (with your help) a pretty thermally well isolated mass for the RFH method. One minor thermal nosebleed area is the overhead door thresholds, which will radiate heat outside. A possible band-aid would be to keep the tubing further from those areas, to use the concrete slab's own low R-value (resistance to heat flow) to minimize the total BTUs lost this direction. In fact, I'd keep all the tubing a couple feet from the outside edge of the floor, since I am not worried about an uncomfortable cold spot. Most of the wall space gets cabinets or tools or benches anyway. Maybe even three feet inside the outer edge would work for the first run of tubing.
Your feedback welcome. Again, this is a heated shop in MN, frost penetrates 48 inches.

 

[Rustyiron]

I think that your foundation/slab design is a winner. :thumbsup:
I know a few guys that have used the ICF's and they are great.
A few thoughts that I had are, do you think that the outside layer of insul. at grade might get loosened or wiped off by the ground heaving more than the foundation. (This 4' frost thing is new to me, I'm from south on the Mason Dixon line!)(and not going back). The radiant heat was new to me as well, I had the sys. designed and laid out by a pro. For me I believe that it was worth it because what I've read about tubing layout widely varried and he (of course) did the hear load calc's and really put the science to it. It looks like my perma column note may have helped, but am wondering why you would not use the type that you "wet dip" or stick into the wet crete?
One last thing that I saved some bucks on was I found a place that sells ridgid foam insulation that has been used. I got some 1 1/2" iso 4x8 sheets for about $7/sht. It is used but in very usable cond. They like to sell 48' trlr loads but at that $ it's worth looking into. I put 2 layers in the walls and I think that the poiyisocianurate (spelling?) that I got has an insulation value of about R6.5 to 7 per inch. Get going, winters coming!:laughing:

 

[jimgerken]

Rustyiron, thanks for the reply.
Outside insulation wiped off: Maybe, good point. Maybe I will "restack" the layers so the bottom horizontal is under the outside vertical. I have redrawn that and re-attached it below. I am thinking that is better, if not a cure.
Drill and bolt on instead of wet set: Yea, I feel the wet set would be better strength-wise, but the Perma-column (thanks for that!) site shows real respectable numbers for the drill and bolt ones. And think of the wonderful luxury of being able to finish the slab flat without all the obstructions. And it will be way easier to get them exactly placed if doing it on the cured concrete, rather than in the wet, the day of pour with all the stress and hurry that goes with that. Just thinking of lower stress, if it can be done that way. I will keep pondering that one though.
Rustyiron, would you mind private messaging me that re-utilized foam business information please? I am interested in talking to them. Thanks...

Still looking for input from the Duffster with his frosty midwest freezing experience viewpoint.

 

[trailbuilder]

We have a Cleary Pole barn (actually 3 of them). The last one was built on the slab with the brackets. It is 40 x 54 x 14. The slab sits on a nice sand slab and the slab is thickened to 2 foot around the perimeter and has 2 courses of rebar. It was so nice to pour the concrete without the barn in the way and then we had a nice working area for the barn construction. It is 5 years old without issue. It might be worth getting a materials quote from Cleary Buildings.

 

[jimgerken]

Trailbuilder: Are the pole brackets the ones that drill and bolt down, or were they set "wet"?
Any in-floor heat? Any insulation under slab, or around perimeter?
Thanks!!!

 

[trailbuilder]

The brackets were wet set. They were like a J and not critical for setting them dead nuts.You could be off an inch or so and the building still was true and square and plumb. It did take 2 extra guys 2 hours during the placement to set the brackets while the other 5 of us placed 33 yards of concrete.

This barn is not heated or insulated.

 

[dave1949]

If you reconsider shallow frost-protected foundations, here are some sources.

This site gives the mean air temp for a location, which determines the amount of insulation:
NCDC: FPSF/Frost Protected Shallow Foundations

This site has some great drawings for how to place the insulation:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.pdf

There are different methods for heated versus unheated buildings.

No personal experience, but I've remembered this just in case, maybe, someday ... If the Scandinavians can use them, they must work if done properly, and save some money too.

I don't think you can go wrong with a frost wall on footer in northern climates. It is a proven method after all. It will be more expensive.

Thermal breaks are important as well as reducing the exposed frost wall surface area to the minimum necessary for avoiding insect problems. Also, you need a very good moisture barrier below the XPS under the slab. As mentioned, moisture is an excellent heat conductor, it steals your floor heat. I used 3 layers of 6 mil black poly in my house. Black poly does not decompose-get eaten by soil minerals nearly as much as the clear poly.

Finding an attractive, durable and weatherproof covering/sheathing for use over XPS on exterior concrete is a challenge. I assume the same would be true for ICF's.
Dave.

 

[Duffster]

Rustyiron, thanks for the reply.
Outside insulation wiped off: Maybe, good point. Maybe I will "restack" the layers so the bottom horizontal is under the outside vertical. I have redrawn that and re-attached it below. I am thinking that is better, if not a cure.
Drill and bolt on instead of wet set: Yea, I feel the wet set would be better strength-wise, but the Perma-column (thanks for that!) site shows real respectable numbers for the drill and bolt ones. And think of the wonderful luxury of being able to finish the slab flat without all the obstructions. And it will be way easier to get them exactly placed if doing it on the cured concrete, rather than in the wet, the day of pour with all the stress and hurry that goes with that. Just thinking of lower stress, if it can be done that way. I will keep pondering that one though.
Rustyiron, would you mind private messaging me that re-utilized foam business information please? I am interested in talking to them. Thanks...

Still looking for input from the Duffster with his frosty midwest freezing experience viewpoint.

I think that is making WAY to much work out of it. I would skip the ICF. To me that is just money down the drain. 2 seperate pours will be more time and money as well.

If you are going to do te ICF anyway you might as well pour a footer 4' deep or trench pour a frost wall.

 

[jimgerken]

Duffster, yea, the ICF money is partially wasted and I feel bad about that and keep apologizing for it. It adds $1000 to the project but supplies almost half that money value in displaced XPS foam insulation alone. Other benefits include; very convenient forming with virtually no labor, exact concrete quantity control, and exact rebar placement.
As far as making too much work, actually I feel this plan (or a variation of it as it seems to keep evolving) makes way less work of it, in the forming and removing of forms. Setting these up and doing the first pour is something I can do alone, then a bunch of tractoring to backfill the inside and outside, running around with the plate packer, then more foam under the floor, then rod grid, then RFH tubing, all work I can do alone. Then finally hire the slab poured and finished. Going all the way to a frost wall costs way more in concrete and excavation, and is beyond the scope of me doing it alone. Adding the FSPF (below) has put this idea to the fore-front.
Dave1949: Thanks for the pointer to the FPSF stuff. I had seen it before, I am reading it again now and I think it fits my situation quite well. If I am understanding it correctly, if I add a pc of foam 2 inches thick sticking outwards from the base of my footing (25 inches below grade) horizontally in the ground about 24" wide, all around the building, I get a frost protected structure in my semi-heated (41-63 degrees minimum average indoor temp) structure. So nothing floats, everything acts "footed", no extra footed sections under overhead doors like I have done in the past, walls and floor act as one, interior walls can be added, compatible with RFH, still very compatible with bookshelf construction, very concrete efficient, should be energy efficient and still qualifies as a "pole building" for tax reasons. Final plan by next week.
Thanks to all again... Good stuff!!!

 

[trailbuilder]

If the numbers for shear and uplift are similar I would go for the bolt in afterwards. Like I said in anothe post it takes time to set the anchors...and it is at a time when youare very busy tending to the concrete.

 

[Danno1]

If I am understanding it correctly, if I add a pc of foam 2 inches thick sticking outwards from the base of my footing (25 inches below grade) horizontally in the ground about 24" wide, all around the building, I get a frost protected structure in my semi-heated (41-63 degrees minimum average indoor temp) structure.

Not horizontal. Pitch it down (like a low slope roof) to drain water away fr the foundation.


.

 

[jimgerken]

The plan is about final at this point. For various reasons of past experience, desired performance and site issues, I am going to use a combination of techniques. The FLW rubble trench idea with drainage at the bottom is being combined with the frost protected shallow foundation technique. This should ensure it stays dry and acts as a footed building, but without pouring any concrete beyond the quantity for a standard alaskan or thickened edge slab. Of course the floor and thickened edge is being insulated strategically for reasons of efficiency with the radiant floor heat method, and this insulation satisfies most of the requirements of the frost protected shallow foundation technique. For real ease of assembly and virtually no forming, the ICF blocks are still in the plan, which also add insulation.
Thanks to all who contributed to the plan. I will post pics of construction as it goes.

 

[ultrarunner]

Looking forward to the pixs!

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

I am going to build a new shop building and wish to be able to finish the inside, insulation, sheeting, etc. I am in Minnesota, so it has to be fairly energy efficient. I saw some breif info on the "bookshelf method" in a pamphlet from the Menards store. Looks like a super way to provide the desired structure on the inside of the wall surface to fasten sheeting to, and provide spaces for fiberglass bats laid in there horzontally. Very material efficient method, I beleive. If anyone here has used this method, please share your experiences with it, pictures too if possible. Even if you have seen one built, like by a neighbor or friend, please speak up and share.
In case you do not recognize the method by the name I gave it (bookshelf), it is a technique which puts the wall girts between the posts, laid flat, typically 2x6's, 24 inches on center vertically spaced (instead of the usual girt method which puts them on the outside of the posts). The pamphlet says they can be toe-nailed (?) or little nailers installed above and below them, for fastening to the posts. The pamphlet says wind loading is increased with the bookshelf method. The real attractive part of this method for me is that the 2x6 girt is available to the outside tin for fastening, then provides a 22.5 inch tall space for fiberglass bat (off the shelf size for between trusses on 24 inch center) and then is flush to the inside of the wall for interior wall sheeting fastening.
Thanks.

I've done several thousand pole buildings using the "bookshelf" or "commercial" girt method. I have two of them myself - in Northeastern WA, so have cold climate to contend with.

The ideal route on your wall framing would be to match the size of your horizontal commercial girts to your columns (2x6 with 6x6, etc.). Set the columns to building dimension (e.g. 40' x 60' would be the measure from outside of column to outside of column). Wrap this framework entirely with A1V reflective insulation (aluminum face out, vinyl face in). Then install 2x4 girts "barn style" on the outside of the columns. In this you have now created a thermal break with the reflective insulation, as well as a dead air space which increases the thermal performance of the system.

For maximum cost effective R value, use BIBS insulation. I found it to be cost competitive with installed batt insulation, has a higher R value and completely fills all of the voids.

Most people are not willing to go through the effort of the double layer of girts, in which case, use a girt one size larger than the columns (2x8 on 6x6, etc.), setting the girt so 1-1/2" hangs past the exterior face of the column.

You will find this installation method allows to compensate for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits - electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3' in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall.

In either case, block the ends of the girts solid against the columns (22-1/2" long 2x4 blocks). Toe-nailing is a very poor connection and joist hangers are not designed to be installed rotated 90 degrees.

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[jimgerken]

POLEBARNGURU : Welcome!
Some good ideas in that post. I was already prepared to block between girts. Wiring, no problem, everything will be on the surface in conduit as I always do.
Count me as one of those people unwilling to double the girts too. My main reason for using the bookshelf system is ease of finish. And economy of materials of course. If I was willing to use double girts, I'd let the builder build using standard external girts, then I'd put a whole second set between like bookshelves, insulate between, and finally sheet internally. All the girts would be 2x4, and the builder's bill would be lower. But to my thinking, if using 2x6 laminated columns and 2x6 bookshelf girts (fully blocked), I am building with about as little amount of wood as possible (for a completly insulated and internally sheeted).
What is BIBS ? Sounds like maybe "blown in something something".
You did not mention Tyvek or similar -- assuming you would want to use this on the outside, and a vapor barrier on the inside just under the sheeting.
(quote) Most people are not willing to go through the effort of the double layer of girts, in which case, use a girt one size larger than the columns (2x8 on 6x6, etc.), setting the girt so 1-1/2" hangs past the exterior face of the column. You will find this installation method allows to compensate for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits - electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3' in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall. (end quote)
This is interesting and I will think about it. At least you reminded me to add 2 inches to my plan in each direction, as I forgot about that last sheet covering 2 extra inches.

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

If you plan on pouring a floor right away I wouldn't put the pole in the ground. Just on top of the slab.

It has never made sense to me to put post in the ground and pour inside the grade boards.

The post will heave in the frost anyway if there is a board resting on the ground and nailed to the post.

From experience, properly constructed, there is no reason you would ever experience any challenges with columns embedded into the ground. Embedded columns are far superior in resistance to bending, uplift and overturning.

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