Has anyone built a pole building using "bookshelf construction method"?

[dave1949]

If you reconsider shallow frost-protected foundations, here are some sources.

This site gives the mean air temp for a location, which determines the amount of insulation:
NCDC: FPSF/Frost Protected Shallow Foundations

This site has some great drawings for how to place the insulation:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.pdf

There are different methods for heated versus unheated buildings.

No personal experience, but I've remembered this just in case, maybe, someday ... If the Scandinavians can use them, they must work if done properly, and save some money too.

I don't think you can go wrong with a frost wall on footer in northern climates. It is a proven method after all. It will be more expensive.

Thermal breaks are important as well as reducing the exposed frost wall surface area to the minimum necessary for avoiding insect problems. Also, you need a very good moisture barrier below the XPS under the slab. As mentioned, moisture is an excellent heat conductor, it steals your floor heat. I used 3 layers of 6 mil black poly in my house. Black poly does not decompose-get eaten by soil minerals nearly as much as the clear poly.

Finding an attractive, durable and weatherproof covering/sheathing for use over XPS on exterior concrete is a challenge. I assume the same would be true for ICF's.
Dave.

 

[Duffster]

Rustyiron, thanks for the reply.
Outside insulation wiped off: Maybe, good point. Maybe I will "restack" the layers so the bottom horizontal is under the outside vertical. I have redrawn that and re-attached it below. I am thinking that is better, if not a cure.
Drill and bolt on instead of wet set: Yea, I feel the wet set would be better strength-wise, but the Perma-column (thanks for that!) site shows real respectable numbers for the drill and bolt ones. And think of the wonderful luxury of being able to finish the slab flat without all the obstructions. And it will be way easier to get them exactly placed if doing it on the cured concrete, rather than in the wet, the day of pour with all the stress and hurry that goes with that. Just thinking of lower stress, if it can be done that way. I will keep pondering that one though.
Rustyiron, would you mind private messaging me that re-utilized foam business information please? I am interested in talking to them. Thanks...

Still looking for input from the Duffster with his frosty midwest freezing experience viewpoint.

I think that is making WAY to much work out of it. I would skip the ICF. To me that is just money down the drain. 2 seperate pours will be more time and money as well.

If you are going to do te ICF anyway you might as well pour a footer 4' deep or trench pour a frost wall.

 

[jimgerken]

Duffster, yea, the ICF money is partially wasted and I feel bad about that and keep apologizing for it. It adds $1000 to the project but supplies almost half that money value in displaced XPS foam insulation alone. Other benefits include; very convenient forming with virtually no labor, exact concrete quantity control, and exact rebar placement.
As far as making too much work, actually I feel this plan (or a variation of it as it seems to keep evolving) makes way less work of it, in the forming and removing of forms. Setting these up and doing the first pour is something I can do alone, then a bunch of tractoring to backfill the inside and outside, running around with the plate packer, then more foam under the floor, then rod grid, then RFH tubing, all work I can do alone. Then finally hire the slab poured and finished. Going all the way to a frost wall costs way more in concrete and excavation, and is beyond the scope of me doing it alone. Adding the FSPF (below) has put this idea to the fore-front.
Dave1949: Thanks for the pointer to the FPSF stuff. I had seen it before, I am reading it again now and I think it fits my situation quite well. If I am understanding it correctly, if I add a pc of foam 2 inches thick sticking outwards from the base of my footing (25 inches below grade) horizontally in the ground about 24" wide, all around the building, I get a frost protected structure in my semi-heated (41-63 degrees minimum average indoor temp) structure. So nothing floats, everything acts "footed", no extra footed sections under overhead doors like I have done in the past, walls and floor act as one, interior walls can be added, compatible with RFH, still very compatible with bookshelf construction, very concrete efficient, should be energy efficient and still qualifies as a "pole building" for tax reasons. Final plan by next week.
Thanks to all again... Good stuff!!!

 

[trailbuilder]

If the numbers for shear and uplift are similar I would go for the bolt in afterwards. Like I said in anothe post it takes time to set the anchors...and it is at a time when youare very busy tending to the concrete.

 

[Danno1]

If I am understanding it correctly, if I add a pc of foam 2 inches thick sticking outwards from the base of my footing (25 inches below grade) horizontally in the ground about 24" wide, all around the building, I get a frost protected structure in my semi-heated (41-63 degrees minimum average indoor temp) structure.

Not horizontal. Pitch it down (like a low slope roof) to drain water away fr the foundation.


.

 

[jimgerken]

The plan is about final at this point. For various reasons of past experience, desired performance and site issues, I am going to use a combination of techniques. The FLW rubble trench idea with drainage at the bottom is being combined with the frost protected shallow foundation technique. This should ensure it stays dry and acts as a footed building, but without pouring any concrete beyond the quantity for a standard alaskan or thickened edge slab. Of course the floor and thickened edge is being insulated strategically for reasons of efficiency with the radiant floor heat method, and this insulation satisfies most of the requirements of the frost protected shallow foundation technique. For real ease of assembly and virtually no forming, the ICF blocks are still in the plan, which also add insulation.
Thanks to all who contributed to the plan. I will post pics of construction as it goes.

 

[ultrarunner]

Looking forward to the pixs!

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

I am going to build a new shop building and wish to be able to finish the inside, insulation, sheeting, etc. I am in Minnesota, so it has to be fairly energy efficient. I saw some breif info on the "bookshelf method" in a pamphlet from the Menards store. Looks like a super way to provide the desired structure on the inside of the wall surface to fasten sheeting to, and provide spaces for fiberglass bats laid in there horzontally. Very material efficient method, I beleive. If anyone here has used this method, please share your experiences with it, pictures too if possible. Even if you have seen one built, like by a neighbor or friend, please speak up and share.
In case you do not recognize the method by the name I gave it (bookshelf), it is a technique which puts the wall girts between the posts, laid flat, typically 2x6's, 24 inches on center vertically spaced (instead of the usual girt method which puts them on the outside of the posts). The pamphlet says they can be toe-nailed (?) or little nailers installed above and below them, for fastening to the posts. The pamphlet says wind loading is increased with the bookshelf method. The real attractive part of this method for me is that the 2x6 girt is available to the outside tin for fastening, then provides a 22.5 inch tall space for fiberglass bat (off the shelf size for between trusses on 24 inch center) and then is flush to the inside of the wall for interior wall sheeting fastening.
Thanks.

I've done several thousand pole buildings using the "bookshelf" or "commercial" girt method. I have two of them myself - in Northeastern WA, so have cold climate to contend with.

The ideal route on your wall framing would be to match the size of your horizontal commercial girts to your columns (2x6 with 6x6, etc.). Set the columns to building dimension (e.g. 40' x 60' would be the measure from outside of column to outside of column). Wrap this framework entirely with A1V reflective insulation (aluminum face out, vinyl face in). Then install 2x4 girts "barn style" on the outside of the columns. In this you have now created a thermal break with the reflective insulation, as well as a dead air space which increases the thermal performance of the system.

For maximum cost effective R value, use BIBS insulation. I found it to be cost competitive with installed batt insulation, has a higher R value and completely fills all of the voids.

Most people are not willing to go through the effort of the double layer of girts, in which case, use a girt one size larger than the columns (2x8 on 6x6, etc.), setting the girt so 1-1/2" hangs past the exterior face of the column.

You will find this installation method allows to compensate for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits - electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3' in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall.

In either case, block the ends of the girts solid against the columns (22-1/2" long 2x4 blocks). Toe-nailing is a very poor connection and joist hangers are not designed to be installed rotated 90 degrees.

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[jimgerken]

POLEBARNGURU : Welcome!
Some good ideas in that post. I was already prepared to block between girts. Wiring, no problem, everything will be on the surface in conduit as I always do.
Count me as one of those people unwilling to double the girts too. My main reason for using the bookshelf system is ease of finish. And economy of materials of course. If I was willing to use double girts, I'd let the builder build using standard external girts, then I'd put a whole second set between like bookshelves, insulate between, and finally sheet internally. All the girts would be 2x4, and the builder's bill would be lower. But to my thinking, if using 2x6 laminated columns and 2x6 bookshelf girts (fully blocked), I am building with about as little amount of wood as possible (for a completly insulated and internally sheeted).
What is BIBS ? Sounds like maybe "blown in something something".
You did not mention Tyvek or similar -- assuming you would want to use this on the outside, and a vapor barrier on the inside just under the sheeting.
(quote) Most people are not willing to go through the effort of the double layer of girts, in which case, use a girt one size larger than the columns (2x8 on 6x6, etc.), setting the girt so 1-1/2" hangs past the exterior face of the column. You will find this installation method allows to compensate for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits - electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3' in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall. (end quote)
This is interesting and I will think about it. At least you reminded me to add 2 inches to my plan in each direction, as I forgot about that last sheet covering 2 extra inches.

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

If you plan on pouring a floor right away I wouldn't put the pole in the ground. Just on top of the slab.

It has never made sense to me to put post in the ground and pour inside the grade boards.

The post will heave in the frost anyway if there is a board resting on the ground and nailed to the post.

From experience, properly constructed, there is no reason you would ever experience any challenges with columns embedded into the ground. Embedded columns are far superior in resistance to bending, uplift and overturning.

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