Comparison EPA vs Standard Engine.

[NewTractorOz]

Hi,

I'm considering a Luzhong 454. 45hp. (Similar to Foton 454.) The Engine comes as two models. An EPA approved engine and the standard engine. The EPA approved costs a little more. I'm wondering if anyone can advise me on which way to go. I'm in Australia and we don't have the same regulations as in US and Europe so I have a choice.

Firstly I'd like to know if an EPA engine is cheaper to run. Will i get better performance and power? Is an EPA engine easy to work on? Does it have more things that can clog up or go wrong?

I'd be interest to hear what everyone thinks about EPA approved engines.

 

[zonta223]

Hi Eric
Which dealer are you going to buy your tractor from? or are you going to self import?
With all Chinese tractors the important thing is dealer pre delivery and setup.
If you want to PM me can give you a few horror stories on the Luzhong tractors as delivered by Australian dealers. I was a victim of some of these practices myself and have collected similar stories from other people.
There is a HUGE difference with the quality and robustness between the genuine Foton and the Luzhong.
As an example the 40hp Fotons on sale at the moment come with the genuine English Perkins diesel in them not some copy of a copy engine.
My honest opinion on Luzhong tractors would be think twice before you buy......then think again and forget it.
However if you are still determined to go ahead and buy one then I would get the EPA engine just for one reason. More of these tractors are sold in the USA than anywhere else. these are sold with the EPA engine.This means a better chance of getting parts when you need them.

 

[RonMar]

IMO, nothing the EPA mandates be done to sell an engine in the USA, does anything to improve power output or efficiency. That is, If the trend with trucks in the US, with no significant changes in diesel truck MPG ratings in the past 30 years, but a whole slew of EPA mandated complexity imposed is any indication... Efficiency is not on their agenda, at least not for diesels...

 

[NewTractorOz]

Hi,

I've been considering the thought of self importing. I've been working at it for months , working out what I need, finding a dealer and a customs broker. I'm just on the verge of making a decision only I was unsure about the EPA engine.

The reason I went with Luzhong is because I began looking at these tractors for the reason that they were affordable and seemed better built than the Jinma. One thing just lead to another. I looked at Foton too but I didn't know who to trust. Not all Fotons come with a Perkins engine.

I read a few horror stories too when it comes to Ausi dealers. I guess this is why I decided not to rely on one. I figured that if I take full responsibility and be my own boss on this one then I don't have any one to complain about. Just take it as it comes. If the tractor drops out on me then I figure I'll find a way to fix it. I know someone who's been driving a Luzhong for a few years now and not one tiny thing has gone wrong. I think there are enough Luzhong dealers in Australia to get small parts. I may need to wait a bit. What would be handy is to let me know what part are likely to go on the tractor first. Maybe I can buy a few bits extra and have them shipped at the same time. (I guess someone is going to say, A whole spare tractor!) Thanks for the advice, I'll certainly take it all into consideration. I need to hear the horror stories I guess to help make up my mind.

What I am uncertain of is just what makes an engine an EPA engine tick. Is it better built to better specifications? Does it have more filters and things? What worries me is that it could have more things to go wrong.

 

[NewTractorOz]

IMO, nothing the EPA mandates be done to sell an engine in the USA, does anything to improve power output or efficiency. That is, If the trend with trucks in the US, with no significant changes in diesel truck MPG ratings in the past 30 years, but a whole slew of EPA mandated complexity imposed is any indication... Efficiency is not on their agenda, at least not for diesels...

So please tell. What is it all about? What does an EPA approved engine offer apart from conforming to US customs regulations?

 

[zonta223]

Hi,

I've been considering the thought of self importing. I've been working at it for months , working out what I need, finding a dealer and a customs broker. I'm just on the verge of making a decision only I was unsure about the EPA engine.

.

Hi Eric
If your are going to self import do not use one of the Chinese dealers/suppliers to supply the tractor.....PM me and I will give the the name of the factory rep and you can buy the tractor directly from them. He advised me their 30 and 40hp tractors are a lot better than their 35 and 45hp ones
Will also pass on the details of someone who bought a LZ454 this year....The first one he got he had to have replaced because the engine vibrated that badly it was unusable.....the dealer replaced it with a new one....he tried pulling a 400kg log with it and the gearbox suffered what he said was terminal failure,
Not trying to scare you just give you info on what is happening with the current Luzhong.

Foton do not sell a 45hp tractor in Australia only the 40hp.

I think there are enough Luzhong dealers in Australia to get small parts.
.

Sorry Eric their is one official Luzhong dealer in whole of Australia to supply parts and he is in Western Australia.

regards

 

[90cummins]

I have worked in engineering and owned & driven diesels for years and also have diesel powered equipment such as tractors, chippers, and generators. I also have experience with Chinese clone diesels specifically the Yanmar clones.
I also attempt to stay on top of current technology and also who's buying who and what's made where.
Chinese equipment is a gamble. I had a new 5500watt generator powered by a 10hp Yanmar diesel clone. At 41 hours the camshaft bearing failed. On this particular engine the camshaft rides in a ball bearing and needle bearing. The cause of the failure was a soft camshaft. The bearing journals were not hardened and the cam journal failed that ran in the needle bearing this also caused other component damage due to contamination. It took me over 2 years to find Chinese replacement parts and get it operating again.
Having had the engine apart and seeing the poor workmanship I would never ever go the Chinese route again and that was a simple small generator.
Imagine the possibilities for grief to fall upon you if you purchase a Chinese tractor which is much more complicated.

Also in the news, Perkins engine company was in an agreement to produce licensed Perkins diesel engines in china.
Currently Perkins is attempting to legally stop them from continuing production because they refuse to build the engines to Perkins quality standards and to prohibit them from using the Perkins name or trademark on any products manufactured.
The Chinese will agree to any and all conditions to lure American and European manufacturing to their country and once they get the technology they do as they dam well please. They steal, they copy, they cheapen!!
If you look at Northern Tools line-up of tractors you will notice that the larger ones are powered Lovol Perkins Tianjing engines.
I think you would be better off to buy a used name brand tractor with dealer support.
I'm not saying Northern Tools particular tractors are poor I'm just stating some facts!
As far as EPA versus non EPA not a clue!!!

Sorry for the rant Chinese products are a sore spot with me.

My 2cents
Tim

 

[greg_g]

So please tell. What is it all about? What does an EPA approved engine offer apart from conforming to US customs regulations?
Eric.

Nothing. I'd personally get the non-EPA engine, and that's from the standpoint that it's simply easier to work on. Runs cooler too I think.

//greg//

 

[Bob Rooks]

I had a new 5500watt generator powered by a 10hp Yanmar diesel clone. At 41 hours the camshaft bearing failed. On this particular engine the camshaft rides in a ball bearing and needle bearing. The cause of the failure was a soft camshaft. The bearing journals were not hardened and the cam journal failed that ran in the needle bearing this also caused other component damage due to contamination. It took me over 2 years to find Chinese replacement parts and get it operating again.

TWO YEARS?? Why didn't you just replace the whole engine for $600.00, fresh warranty and all and be done with it Amazon.com: 10 Hp Diesel Engine Electric Start Plus Recoil Start: Home Improvement. Small two pole 5.5 kW generators that run at 3,600 r/m are throw-away units anyway.
It should be noted that Chinese manufacturers will build just about anything you want, and any way you want it. I've seen high-spec machines and components come from China, all very good. It all depends on your supervisory role and willingness to adopt to new ways of doing business.
Caterpillar will be doing a LOT of business in China in the coming years.

http://www.uk.cat.com/cda/files/2258809/7/062810+Caterpillar+to+Increase+Excavator+Production+in+China.pdf

As for EPA engines vs. non-EPA engines of the same family, I don't know much about the Chinese engines in that regard even though I own one, but the domestic small diesel propulsion market (under 1,000 HP) has undergone dramatic changes since Tier ll regulations came into effect. Basically what you will see in most cases are different injectors, metallurgical and design changes in pistons, cam timing, combustion chamber design changes, and exhaust gas recirculating (EGR) components to name just a few. In many cases they are the same engine with updated components. Cleaner burning and more efficient engines come at a price, a trade-off. Example: If one engine developed 5,000 HP prior to EPA implementation and only 4,000 HP (in theory) afterward then a 6,000 HP engine would produce 5,000 HP.

 

[erj]

I have worked in engineering and owned & driven diesels for years and also have diesel powered equipment such as tractors, chippers, and generators. I also have experience with Chinese clone diesels specifically the Yanmar clones.
I also attempt to stay on top of current technology and also who's buying who and what's made where.
Chinese equipment is a gamble. I had a new 5500watt generator powered by a 10hp Yanmar diesel clone. At 41 hours the camshaft bearing failed. On this particular engine the camshaft rides in a ball bearing and needle bearing. The cause of the failure was a soft camshaft. The bearing journals were not hardened and the cam journal failed that ran in the needle bearing this also caused other component damage due to contamination. It took me over 2 years to find Chinese replacement parts and get it operating again.
Having had the engine apart and seeing the poor workmanship I would never ever go the Chinese route again and that was a simple small generator.
Imagine the possibilities for grief to fall upon you if you purchase a Chinese tractor which is much more complicated.

Also in the news, Perkins engine company was in an agreement to produce licensed Perkins diesel engines in china.
Currently Perkins is attempting to legally stop them from continuing production because they refuse to build the engines to Perkins quality standards and to prohibit them from using the Perkins name or trademark on any products manufactured.
The Chinese will agree to any and all conditions to lure American and European manufacturing to their country and once they get the technology they do as they dam well please. They steal, they copy, they cheapen!!
If you look at Northern Tools line-up of tractors you will notice that the larger ones are powered Lovol Perkins Tianjing engines.
I think you would be better off to buy a used name brand tractor with dealer support.
I'm not saying Northern Tools particular tractors are poor I'm just stating some facts!
As far as EPA versus non EPA not a clue!!!

Sorry for the rant Chinese products are a sore spot with me.

My 2cents
Tim

After reading this post I had to recheck the URL on my web page. I thought that the computer messed up and I was no longer on the site for helping others with Chinese tractors.
RonJ

 

[NewTractorOz]

Hey Zonta. I'm unfamiliar with this site. maybe you can PM me with the details.

The WA company say they are the only authorized dealer but this is quite incorrect. The are no authorized dealers. They simply say this to spin a mystery web over the whole thing. My information is that Luzhong don't ever deal direct with westerners. They have good reasons for this. They have a ring of Chinese export companies handing their sales. The export companies are all independent from each other but all give you the impression they are the direct link to the factory. (As their web sites all look the same but have different managers.) Each company is the direct link to the factory , but not the only link. It's a dragon with many heads. You may deal with any one of these export companies. I have found them to be very patient and easy to deal with. They are also all very competitive amongst each other and will sell to anyone and try to give you a better price or better service. The end product is the same. (If you happen to get the right person.) So to say that someone has sole rights, as this particular WA company does in their site is just not right. This is actually a breech of the consumer protection laws. I have discovered three other Luzhong dealers. One in Adelaide. One in Brisbane and one in Taree. They don't call themselves Luzhong though, they have their own company names. Agricat Aus are also Luzhong under a different badge. (but we won't talk about them)

These tractors are out there and working fine. Depending on who you talk to. But of course some go wrong as do well known brands.

My problem is that I don't have the money to even get a look at the well known brands. I would love to be able to spend big but my income won't allow it. So far the tractor with all the luxury add-ons, 45hp EPA engine, cab, wider tires, shuttle shift, etc etc plus TZ05 loader 4 in 1, and 1400mm rotary hoe is costing $14500 to my door. That's why I'm considering importing my own. it's not easy and it's taken me ages to track down the right information. I still won't know of course until I run the tractor for a year. (if it runs for a year.) But hey, it's also the way one looks at life. I don't think of problems and problems but as lessons that always have something to teach. I've learned a lot so far. And no doubt if the machine cracks in half or if the gearbox drops out, I will learn a lot more.

I'm not going into this blindly. I do have doubts and so am researching these angles. But there will come a time soon when I will need to decide. I appreciate your comments. They make me rethink the whole exercise.
Eric.

 

[NewTractorOz]

Nothing. I'd personally get the non-EPA engine, and that's from the standpoint that it's simply easier to work on. Runs cooler too I think.

//greg//

From this point alone I think it's worth considering.

However Bob is saying :In many cases they are the same engine with updated components.
This is worth considering too.

About the horsepower rating: I figure I only need a 30-35hp machine. But I definitely need a cab and the small tractors don't come with cabins. So the extra weight will need a slightly larger engine. My logic is that a 45hp machine won't be worked as hard. I never push machines to the limit anyway. But does this make sense to anyone?

 

[zonta223]

Hi
PM on its way.

regards

 

[indianaEPH]

Nothing. I'd personally get the non-EPA engine, and that's from the standpoint that it's simply easier to work on. Runs cooler too I think.

//greg//

I think it depends on the specific difference. If it is the exact same engine/components and the only difference is the calibration of the fuel system then choose the engine based on : Better performance choose non-EPA, lower Smoke/PM choose EPA. HOwever, it may be that in order to be compliant with EPA regulations the EPA engines need to have better components, particularly the fuel system. Again the details are what matters.

The Diesel engine industry has been reducing emissions greatly over the last 20 years. In general this has been at the burden of added cost. Fuel economy although has always been very important is secondary to regulated emissions (if you don't meet emissions standards you don't sell).

With the adoption of Teir 4 standard in US/Euorope and 2010/Euro 6/7 emissions regulations the emphasis now shifts to fuel economy.

 

[greg_g]

But does this make sense to anyone?

Agreed. I had a 24hp 2wd Yanmar for years, and decided to replace it with a 25hp 42d Jinma. Big mistake. The construction materials used in the Chinese tractor were so much heavier/bulkier than the Japanese tractor, that the Jinma considerably outweighed the Yanmar. In some cases that's a good thing, but not on my hillside property. So despite the advantage of 4wd, the Jinma had considerably fewer horsepower per pound of tractor than the Yanmar. It just couldn't work and climb a hill at the same time. One or the other, not both. The Jinma dealer even replaced the tractor for me, but the 2nd one was no better. So after struggling with the under-powered (for my purposes) Jinmas for a couple years, I decided there was no alternative other than to trade up. I even skipped a tier, went straight to a 45hp 4wd KAMA. That's the machine I should have gotten in the first place. I liked the KM454 so well, that I bought it's little brother (TS354C) for light duty and loader work around the farm. But to tackle those hillsides, the 45hp was definitely the machine of preference. All four of those tractors were non-EPA

//greg//

 

[zonta223]

Hi Eric
can understand why you want to make a move shortly with Australian dollar going so High against the $US is a great time to pay for anything priced in $US

regards

 

[greg_g]

The Diesel engine industry has been reducing emissions greatly over the last 20 years. In general this has been at the burden of added cost. Fuel economy although has always been very important is secondary to regulated emissions (if you don't meet emissions standards you don't sell).

I've since traded the last two non-EPA tractors for a new 44hp 4wd John Deere (to the left). It has an EPA engine, and is lightweight like the old Yanmar. But after adding cab/loader/ballast, the horsepower per pound comes up well short of the 45hp KAMA it replaced (open station/no loader). The unintended consequence has put me back in the same situation; not enough power to effectively work up the hillsides.

So in my estimation the EPA/Euro road to lower emissions/particulates and greater fuel economy, has resulted in less power to the ground. In the old days, I think they use to call that draw bar horsepower.

//greg//

 

[doxford jim]

Hi Eric,
Thought I would add my two cents worth.

I too bought a Chinese tractor - a 2007 Jinma 554 (55hp). It was to replace a MF65 that I had but was a 1959 tractor and while it still worked well, parts were getting to be hard to come by and expensive.

I went with 55hp as I thought it would be enough - I don't think you can have too much hp unless you get ridiculous with it.

The choice for the Jinma was based on reports I could find and parts availability - I live in Canada and there can be problems. I recently tried to buy some parts out of the USA and was charged a certain price and was told one week delivery if I used UPS. Well, that turned out to be a real crock of sh*t and nearly seven weeks later, UPS phoned to tell me about a parcel of tractor part for delivery !!! After two weeks of no parts I re-ordered through a company in eastern Canada - who had to order the part direct from China, air freight it to Ontario and then send the complete order to me by Canada Post. This order was delivered within two weeks of first placing the order and at about 40% of what the US company would have cost me. I cancelled the first order and now the parts supplier and UPS have to sort out their expenses - ha , that should teach 'em !

The point of this story is to say that getting parts from China may not be bad at all. For me it was much faster than shipping from the USA and 40% of the cost.

The tractor with the FEL was perhaps 35% of what I would have paid for a new 55hp big name tractor (Ford, JD, MF etc). Sure I have had a few problems but nothing catastrophic that I couldn't handle. You can import yourself easier in Australia I think, than in Canada. I ordered through an importer (Chinese Canadian) and did quite well I feel. It came as a crated tractor and I assembled it myself - easy to do if you are mechanically inclined. But, as in anything you buy you do take some risk. I had reason to contact the Jinma factory and found them easy and pleasant to deal with.

How does this apply to Luzhong tractors - it doesn't really, but the lessons learned do.

If you feel happy about the Luzhong models, go for it. It might be worth looking at other major brands too like Foton, Dongfeng, ,Kama etc. Each make has good and not so good points and I think for the most part, the later tractors are better quality than the earlier ones.

By the way, I got $4500 in a quick sale for my old MF65 with a FEL and TPH (could have held out for $5,000). The new Jinma with the FEL and TPH cost me around $14,000 US in 2007. I would say that is a fair price - they most likely would be more expensive now.

HTH - good luck with whatever make you decide to go with.

Cheers

Jim

 

[NewTractorOz]

hey jim,
It's nice to hear the positive stories. I really appreciate your comments. My tractor should be coming fully assembled so it will be easier but I know there will be little things to tighten and check. The hardest thing for me was working out just what kind of options I wanted and finding the right supplier. I started out not knowing very much about tractors at all. I've tried my best to make sure I got the best loader. I hope I can add my experiences to yours as a positive one. Self importing is like taking the scary path through the bush rather than going along the highway. I've always preferred to take the unmarked trails. I've lived in some pretty isolated places and so don't mind waiting a while until something is fixed. China is only an email away really. And I've already decided to order a few spare parts along with the shipment. It's not so much the money I've saved, it's just that without doing what I'm doing a cab tractor just wouldn't be an option for me. I just wouldn't be able to do it.

But we'll see what happens as it's only early days yet.

I have decided to keep the EPA engine out for now. Runs hotter with a higher fuel pressure? To me it sounds like it's asking for trouble. Maybe my next tractor.

Eric

 

[SPIKER]

One thing is you should get a list of parts together and get them with the tractor is possible...

mark