How Important is Made in the USA?

[Gale Hawkins]

Today software development costs to outsource to India have about equalized we are finding or is cheaper in the USA. As the facts become more clear about the future wages in the USA they are continuing to adjust themselves. In time China and India like Japan will loose they low cost labor advantage. That is why China companies are looking at off shoring to areas of Africa in the future where the next source of cheap labor will come from.

The time window for a country starting with England to be the source of goods for the world is getting shorter and shorter. We had about 100 years and Japan about 40-50 years. China's fast growth in manufacturing and wages and their form of goverment is going to make for very rocky times ahead for them. Their race to be a major naval force complete with aircraft carriers and a strong player in the space race would make for very rocky tmes for the rest of us.

 

[WHW2821]

WHW2821: The inferior equipment that you mentioned (HOWSE) is not India made, but made in Mississippi. The blades however may be sourced outside the USA just like most manufactureres do, look for the cheapest price so they can make more profit. So even though we may buy American made, some of the critical components may not be up to par. The only Howse thing I have is a cheap bush hog and I have abused the heck out of it and it is still clipping. Despite hitting a truck load of rocks, the blades are still in good shape. Maybe they just outsources the tiller blades for a while and go some inferior products. A letter to their headquarters might make them take notice if they havent already. If they realize that they used some bad blades on older models, they should bite the bullet and replace the for you at their cost but dont hold your breath on that one. Maybe ship them some broken ones for examination with a letter and maybe some photos of the soil that you were using them in would get a response.

Gary, You are correct about them being from Ms and I knew that and didn't mean to say that the whole thing was made in India. The blades are they have a blue sticker on them that says India. You can see the air pockets and blobs of slag in the cast blades where they snapped. I took pictures and sent many emails and even got Mr. Howse's attention but they will not warranty them so I guess I am stuck with the continued replacement at my expense for there choice of junk blades. The new blades I received are of notably better quality and do not have the made in India sticker on them. I pointed out to them that at some point they changed blades so there must have been a problem that they acknowledged but that did not matter. Oh well lesson learned and that is why I will not buy there products.

 

[crazyal]

I once did some subcontract work inspecting valves for a Canadian company that were going to be used in nuclear reactors and US subs. The bulk of the castings came from India (they were the best). What people don't understand is these countries with low wages will make what ever is spec'd out. If the wholesaler asks for junk, they get it (just look at some of the horrible freight stuff). But if they ask for and inspect quality they also can deliver it.

As to wages, I see it like Baseball. Should all these players have milti-million dollar contracts, of course not but since one team is willing to pay it then others have to. It's the same with CEOs. If you want good ones then you need to pay for them or risk loosing them to another business. It rare that one or two workers will make or break a company but a good CEO could be the difference between liquidating your company or being rewarded with dividends and high stock prices (the only reason why people invest in stock).

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Good post crazyal.

 

[Mistyridgefarm]

Cheap tools? Lots of blame going around. CEOs, corporations, unions, etc are small parts of the real problem. Take a look in the mirror. There is the root of the problem. Quality is something Americans have completely lost sight of. If we stopped buying the junk, none of the aforementioned blameies would matter. When I started out, it was a real temptation to buy the cheaper stuff to get by. What I found out was the junk cost me more in the long run with repeated buys, rushed trips to get a part or replacement before the store closes, etc.

Now, if I can't afford the best, I don't buy it. Also, how many of you go above your "pay grade" and ensure whatever it is you do is the best it can be done? Sorry for the stump. Like others posted, it will balance out when the farse of an economy we have hits the floor.

We have become a nation of blind consumers, with no judgement on quality, nor the impact of our purchasing decisions. Swipe the card and all is well. Leverage our homes and children so we can add a Mahindra to the garage? When I paid $7500 for my JD345 twenty years ago my boss at the time scoffed his Wally world special for 1200 would be just fine. He has had problems year after year, in the shop more than mowing, and replaced seven times! Mine has mowed at least 5 acres a week from march thru October with only some belts, blades, and a few tubes. Any part on it I can have the next day, even things like the hood ( which a five year old thought made a trampoline).

Sorry, this turned into a diatribe. Bottom line is the consumer holds the power, responsibility, and ultimately the blame for the products they "consume".

 

[dcyrilc]

Cheap tools? Lots of blame going around. CEOs, corporations, unions, etc are small parts of the real problem. Take a look in the mirror. There is the root of the problem. Quality is something Americans have completely lost sight of. If we stopped buying the junk, none of the aforementioned blameies would matter. When I started out, it was a real temptation to buy the cheaper stuff to get by. What I found out was the junk cost me more in the long run with repeated buys, rushed trips to get a part or replacement before the store closes, etc.

Now, if I can't afford the best, I don't buy it. Also, how many of you go above your "pay grade" and ensure whatever it is you do is the best it can be done? Sorry for the stump. Like others posted, it will balance out when the farse of an economy we have hits the floor.

We have become a nation of blind consumers, with no judgement on quality, nor the impact of our purchasing decisions. Swipe the card and all is well. Leverage our homes and children so we can add a Mahindra to the garage? When I paid $7500 for my JD345 twenty years ago my boss at the time scoffed his Wally world special for 1200 would be just fine. He has had problems year after year, in the shop more than mowing, and replaced seven times! Mine has mowed at least 5 acres a week from march thru October with only some belts, blades, and a few tubes. Any part on it I can have the next day, even things like the hood ( which a five year old thought made a trampoline).

Sorry, this turned into a diatribe. Bottom line is the consumer holds the power, responsibility, and ultimately the blame for the products they "consume".

I totally agree. I've been saying that for years. HF and other stores like it are doing well because most consumers are willing to trade quality for cost. The simple truth is that the stores sell what people are buying. As long as more consumers are buying cheap junk than those who are buying quality tools, that's what the bulk of the stores are going to sell. If you're a business owner and cheap tools are what are selling the best, what do you do? You stock cheap tools. The blame here lies 99% with the consumer.

 

[BeeferMan]

the wage of the worker is being used all the time for the reason to go offshore.
BUNK!!! I forget the ratio but in the US executives get something like 100 times the salary of the workers...

Your figures are slightly out of date. In 1980 the ratio of average CEO earned 42 times the pay of the average worker. That statistic peaked in 2005 at 525. In 2007 (last year I could find figures for) it had decreased to 364, when the average - that's *average* - CEO pay was $10.8 million.

 

[BeeferMan]

Hey, I'll see if I can add a little twist to this discussion.

So far the "Made in the USA" discussion seems centered us sending jobs to Asia and receiving crap goods in return. How about Europe? How do people feel about buying from EU countries as opposed to US? Effect on jobs? What about quality?

 

[DAY]

I totally agree. I've been saying that for years. HF and other stores like it are doing well because most consumers are willing to trade quality for cost. The simple truth is that the stores sell what people are buying. As long as more consumers are buying cheap junk than those who are buying quality tools, that's what the bulk of the stores are going to sell. If you're a business owner and cheap tools are what are selling the best, what do you do? You stock cheap tools. The blame here lies 99% with the consumer.

Reading through many of the posts here at TBN, yes, I agree the consumer is to "blame", but it is often more ignorance than cupidity. We buy consumer junk at the Big Box stores because we don't even know about the "tools"- be they a tractor or a socket set- that the Professionals use:thumbsup:

How many posts begin with "I broke"? Sometimes cheap, shoddy equipment is to blame, but just as often it is operator error, trying to make the machine do something above and beyond its design. There's a current thread about using a box blade to push trees over!

Let's face it, many (most?:laughing of us are neophytes in the world of moving dirt and snow around with an expensive machine- it is why we come here, asking the "dumb" questions.

 

[Reg]

There seems to be an underlying assumption (by some) that USA produced goods are somehow "better" than anything from anywhere else - almost regardless of price.
I doubt the "UNIVERSAL" truth of that - or even that it has much "truthiness" to it (-:

Sure, it is patriotic for anyone/everyone to buy products made in whatever country they are from, but there is a point beyond which patronizing local products just encourages poor value, e.g. 10, 20 or 30% more expen$ive, but no better, quite possibly assembled from same components as the imported product.
So where's the "value proposition" ?

Harbor freight gets a lot of press here.
For "single use" tools a lot of people here seem to believe that the price:quality ratio can't be beat.

Same with Walmart - you want cheap, you buy cheap, whats to ***** about ?
(-:

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Thankful to the local WM that was open at 2 am this morning and the taxi driver that waited for me to buy the correct new battery, some screw in posts and a China set of jumper cables I made it home. :thumbsup:

Thanks to HF sale on ratch wrenches I had the tools in the back of the Blazer not yet removed from the last trip from HF to remove the old battery after I got up this morning.

Paying for quality that you do not need is financially less than bright we know today.

Not sure I ever wore out any hand tool but I have lost, left, etc a lot of them over the years. I seem to buy a $10 blister pack of screw drivers quite often and still never can find the right blade after they come put of the package.

 

[Snaker]

I think the "USA" labeling has lost the trust of americans (I'll include you Canadians just cause I like ya). It's been well over 10 years that products have been labeled as made, assembled, designed, touched, looked at, etc. Imports with brand names including US or American or US flag decals are comman. I'm not sure if labeling will get people to pay extra.

I see many products that don't have any country of origin statement. Was there some sort of change in law?. Even food products often say "distributed by" rather than "made in" or "manufactured by".

I don't think that imports are automatically bad. Our industrial revolution was based on machinery imported from Europe. There has been a good history of trade balance with Europe mostly due to comparible economies. Most imports were higher end products. Their basic plain jane products couldn't compete and stayed there. The real problem has been the exploitatation of 3rd world labor and lack of regulation (something we can not compete with unless we become a true 3rd world country) and the US opening the doors to world free trade.

If our trade system was working properly, there wouldn't even be an issue of "would you pay more if it was made in USA" Tariffs used to be applied to ensure that a imported product was equal to or more in price than a similar domestic product. Our New World Order lobbist's took care of that.

I remember in the mid 80's Harley Davidson complained to the Fed's that the Jananese motocycles were flooding the country. A tariff was applied on imported bikes 750cc and up which were viewed as a competitive threat. Harley was happy and the Japanese worked within their strategy by developing a whole new line of 700cc bikes and bringing some manufacturing to the US. That should be an example of what we need to be doing now.

 

[MaineTWLSB]

Just an example, make of it what you will....

I'm in the market for a wood splitter and would love to buy a 'Made in the USA' brand; Timber Wolf, Iron & Oak or (the one I really want) a Super Split. These all 'start' at $2200-ish, with the Super Split coming in at about $2700.

Lowes, Depot, TSC or Northern I'm looking at prices of about $1200 to $1500. We have a limited budget (like everyone else) and I have to sell off some of the other items we have hanging around here to even think about getting a splitter.

With as much a $1500 difference in price to buy 'Made in the USA' (for me it's more about 'keeping it local' than a quality thing) it's hard to justify.

This is more of a vent than a constructive comment, I know. Just throwing it out here.

John

 

[DAY]

Are these "Apples to Apples" comparisons? Same quality? All American-made parts? Cylinder, pump, hoses, valves, etc? How about the steel? Or are they 'assembled' from off the shelf parts that may be from abroad? $1000-$1500 seems to be a big difference, even given the volume discounts that Big Box stores get from manufacturers.

 

[MaineTWLSB]

Are these "Apples to Apples" comparisons? Same quality? All American-made parts? Cylinder, pump, hoses, valves, etc? How about the steel? Or are they 'assembled' from off the shelf parts that may be from abroad? $1000-$1500 seems to be a big difference, even given the volume discounts that Big Box stores get from manufacturers.

Actually I almost put that in there, Day. The Super Spit, at least, is really a totally different machine as far as it doesn't use hydraulics like the others. As far as the steel, pumps, hoses, etc I don't know but on paper they largely 'spec out' the same. I know the Timber Wolves are excellent well built machines but a well received/reviewed machine from Northern for a $800-$1000 less...it's hard to argue with.

These are extreme examples and gets away from Ted's original question (would you pay 10% more), but it struck a cord with me as far as 'wanting' to buy 'Made in the USA' and 'needing' to. If that makes sense.

John

 

[Car Doc]

Well there wouldn't be so many people out of work if more things were made here and replacing items every year just because it was cheap at waly mart would come to a screeching halt and then maybe we wouldn't be printing money like it was toilet paper its worth about as much and its 100% the fault of the US government makes no diff what color or political party they all are to blame. my 2c

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Manufacturing will always be done where governments encourage it the most or maybe I should say discourage it the least.

The crew (in part from MX) that built our Lowes CMB building two story shop mainly used a 6 foot ladder. They got up the 2x6" ridge beam and then stood/walked it to nail the rafters to it.

Local crews would have twice the man hours to build the 1000 sq ft of space with a 350 sq ft lean-to. They did it in 96 man hours but they worked 12 hour days and took hair raising risks.

Actually how they squared it and all was quite impressive and low tech. They build the same building several times a week and have a good system to help insure reasonable quality.

Safe and cheap do not belong in the same sentence. :thumbsup:

 

[Mistyridgefarm]

One time use tools? The $60 AAA membership would have gotten you going, employed a good old USA person (unless the tow operator was an alien, which is a whole other apple, and the throw tools wouldn't be needed. I'm not saying it has to be made in the USA to be good, just that a consumer that buys junk will eventually pay more in the long run than buying quality. Why is china so cheap? They have no quality, safety, or envirnmental systems. Couple that with a pegged exchange rate and they will always be cheaper. We used to have tariffs to balance these things. Do your children a favor, if it says made in China, put it back on the shelf.

My grandfather said, "if it is worth doing, it is worth doing right."

A quality product will never disappoint!

 

[Old Rooster]

That is exactly where we want to be! Very well said.

It would be according to what made in USA quality you are talking about, would it be 1950 and 60 quality or would it be. I don't want to mention any Co. names but I am sure you remember not long ago a major tire Co. found out just how cheep they could make tires and I have not found any real quality even in made in USA products in the last 20 years.
So my friend just what kind of Quality are you talking about, I sure hope it isn't the tire Co. Quality.

 

[Haywire]

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take.

I usually buy the thing that meets my needs while impacting my wallet the least. I don't need a super duty implement that will last a commercial farmer 40 years to till or cultivate my garden patch.

If I see two things of equal quality and equal price, one of which has a US sticker, I will buy the US version.

If the US version is more expensive but has no practical advantage over the import, I buy the import. Runny paint or welds that are structurally sound but ugly and maybe don't match up exactly are not that important. I don't even ask what LandPride or Woods prices are because I know I'm not willing to buy them when something of lesser quality and smaller price tag will suffice.

Ian