Tires The last word on flipping tires.

[davygp38]

I have been searching the forums for a definitive answer on flipping the front tires on my L4400, to increase the width. It is almost 50-50 as far as opinions go. I just had my new tires foam filled. Since I had them off, an since they now weigh 200 pounds each, was going to flip them, so the dish is to the out side, giving me about a 2 inch increase in width on the front. Some posts say it will stress the wheel bearings, others say no, some say the front axle pivots, and that cancels out any benefit you might get (I can't see how.) In any case, I am going with whatever consensus I get from the replies on this thread. I thank you in advance for your opinions.

 

[TTTTTT]

I have been searching the forums for a definitive answer on flipping the front tires on my L4400, to increase the width. It is almost 50-50 as far as opinions go. I just had my new tires foam filled. Since I had them off, an since they now weigh 200 pounds each, was going to flip them, so the dish is to the out side, giving me about a 2 inch increase in width on the front. Some posts say it will stress the wheel bearings, others say no, some say the front axle pivots, and that cancels out any benefit you might get (I can't see how.) In any case, I am going with whatever consensus I get from the replies on this thread. I thank you in advance for your opinions.

Hi , I assume you read this thread as well.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/200143-swap-tires-increase-track-2.html

For me after I tipped mine the descion was easy... widen the stance. It has offered great peace of mind and noticable more stability, of course i still am very concious of my surroundings especially on side hills. For me I was not worried about the axle strength as in my case as I think most tractors the design is built in for that feature as needed (my manual lists the various positions). The problem is when you try to do more with your paticular tractor than designed. Widening the front tires will obviously put more stress on the front axle especially with a heavier bucket load or if you are trying to dig. If you use appropriate counter weight you are probably ok or limit your bucket load accordingly. A Bucket of gravel is a big difference from a bucket of top soil. On the rears where your load will pivot, again depending on your 3pt counter weight, I wouldn't worry as much. I guess unless you are out to really abuse your machine beyond its capabilities you are ok. Of course its very easy to do that as your working until something snaps. As you widen the stance you are reducing its ability in some areas. As long as you are aware, you should be could to go.

My $.02 Cheers Dave

 

[Kernopelli]

I have had mine flipped around for 5 years now and had no problems, this is on a Mitsubishi with an oversized FEL. Some makes/models may not handle the stress as well but I've had no problems. The initial reason I flipped mine was to be able to straddle wider obstacles.....like my front ditch. This allowed me to mow it more easily. I also disagree with the axle pivot theory ( to a point). While the front axle is pivoting, the rigid rear axle is what is keeping the tractor from "falling over". However, when the front axle has reached its maximum pivot angle it becomes rigid and this is when the fronts wider stance may just make the difference between the tractor rolling over or not. It just stands to reason that the wider the front end is, the more stable the tractor is once the axle ceases to pivot. Theoretically, If you widened your front axle out 15 feet, it would probably be almost impossible to roll the tractor, because it became more stable once the axle became rigid.

 

[Jay4200]

I have been searching the forums for a definitive answer on flipping the front tires on my L4400, to increase the width. It is almost 50-50 as far as opinions go. I just had my new tires foam filled. Since I had them off, an since they now weigh 200 pounds each, was going to flip them, so the dish is to the out side, giving me about a 2 inch increase in width on the front. Some posts say it will stress the wheel bearings, others say no, some say the front axle pivots, and that cancels out any benefit you might get (I can't see how.) In any case, I am going with whatever consensus I get from the replies on this thread. I thank you in advance for your opinions.

Of course there is more stress on the bearings and hubs with a wider-stance wheel arrangement - simple physics. Given the environment a tractor is designed for, I would suspect that the actual difference in dynamic loading on the bearings is negligible.

The real question is, does the tractor care? I'd guess not in the slightest.

JayC

 

[dex3361]

I have the L4400 and i am not setting mine to the wider setting. I have a FEL on mine and I leave it on all the time. I have the rear ag tires set to their widest setting. If I did not have a FEL I would set it out but with FEL no way.

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

"Mount rear wheels in the widest position for maximum stability."

This is a direct quote from the JD 447 BackHoe manual. No mention of stressing the bearings or other parts. Given corporate aversion to risk and potential lawsuits, I suspect they would not recommend if there were any chance of damage. In fact, if there were any danger, there would likely be a huge safety label on every wheel warning of the potential hazard.

 

[dcyrilc]

Theoretically, If you widened your front axle out 15 feet, it would probably be almost impossible to roll the tractor, because it became more stable once the axle became rigid.

I have to agree with this statement, however......

I also feel that the few inches gained by swapping the front tires are negligable compared to the tilt angle of the front axel pivot vs the roll over point. For most applications I see no benefit to swapping the fronts (Kernopelli stated one of the exceptions here). I also doubt there would be any significant added stress from doing it. Widening the rears on the other hand......... Direct unquestionable benefit.

The other option if rollovers are a major concern for you is to put duels on the rear. This has the greatest added stability benefit of any realistic modification. Having run duels on my tractor this winter, I can testify that filled tires have nothing on using duels when talking about stability.

I like the idea of the foam filled fronts. My tractor has had them since I got it and I wouldn't even consider replacing them without having them foam filled again. Especially with a FEL.

 

[art]

It is one thing to widen the rears, and we still see failures when there are less parts involved then in the front axle.

To widen the fronts we have and do! To load them with extra weight? Naw we'll let you do that!!! We stand behind our recommendations!

Yes you will make the tractor harder to steer, might be a small problem on a Kubota because they steer easy to begin with. The part of stress, while yes you have added that to the front axle bearings, housings and axles in a huge way by the foam filled fronts.

You haven't done as much then the people who fill the fronts with a loader on! Plus is, thorns won't make your tires go flat!

 

[dcyrilc]

Yes you will make the tractor harder to steer, might be a small problem on a Kubota because they steer easy to begin with. The part of stress, while yes you have added that to the front axle bearings, housings and axles in a huge way by the foam filled fronts.

Please explain your thinking here.

 

[Soundguy]

check your manual. on many 2wd machines.. you can flip for width.. on many 4wd you can't.

soundguy

I have been searching the forums for a definitive answer on flipping the front tires on my L4400, to increase the width. It is almost 50-50 as far as opinions go. I just had my new tires foam filled. Since I had them off, an since they now weigh 200 pounds each, was going to flip them, so the dish is to the out side, giving me about a 2 inch increase in width on the front. Some posts say it will stress the wheel bearings, others say no, some say the front axle pivots, and that cancels out any benefit you might get (I can't see how.) In any case, I am going with whatever consensus I get from the replies on this thread. I thank you in advance for your opinions.

 

[Reg]

I have been searching the forums for a definitive answer on flipping the front tires on my L4400, to increase the width. It is almost 50-50 as far as opinions go. I just had my new tires foam filled. Since I had them off, an since they now weigh 200 pounds each, was going to flip them, so the dish is to the out side, giving me about a 2 inch increase in width on the front. Some posts say it will stress the wheel bearings, others say no, some say the front axle pivots, and that cancels out any benefit you might get (I can't see how.) In any case, I am going with whatever consensus I get from the replies on this thread. I thank you in advance for your opinions.

Yes, a lot of folk do it.
Yes, some manufacturers advise against it in the owners' manuals.
I would check the owners' manual, if it doesn't say don't - that may only mean that they don't want to admit to having put weak hubs on (-:
or it could mean that it is OK to do.

SOME have different recommendations for Ag, R4s, Turfs - so tire type MIGHT matter.

 

[tessiers]

I'd set the tires to fit the rows of corn, don't see any other way of doing it.

 

[slowzuki]

On my Kubota, you are asked not to flip or widen the front tires. If I didn't use the loader all the time I'd probably ignore that, but since I've had to do front end bearing work even where they are now, I wouldn't risk it with a loader.

I have my rears out as wide as possible already. I work on pretty steep stuff, never been a problem.

 

[Gary Fowler]

OK, I am going to toss out a speculative theory that by flipping the tire on a dished rim that you dont put any extra stress on the axle. You simple transfer the stress in opposite directions. The rim centerline location is still bolted at the same spot. So when the dish is set to inside direction (narrowest)the stress on the axle is wanting to push the axle end down whereas when dished to the outside (widest) the stress would want to push the axle tip up. The same amount of force is on the axle and bearings, just pushing it in the opposite direction. The amount of steering load increases due to the longer leverage distance between the tires so you would get harder steering and likely a bit more wear on the steering knuckles. As for not worth it on the front due to pivot, folks claiming that have likely not noticed that the axle hits the frame way before the tractor would reach a roll over point, so widening the front stance helps to prevent tip over just as much as widening the back.
Please one of you engineering folks prove me wrong with some actual computations or CAD model not opinions.

 

[davygp38]

Thanks for all the feedback. In the owners manual, under four wheel drive models, It clearly says in two places " front tread can not be adjusted." It also says " Important, do not turn front disc's to obtain wider tread." As far as the rears go, there are specific mounting instructions for getting the widest tread, based on the tires you use, and whether you have a back hoe or not ( I do.) The manual also says " dual tires are not approved." I guess the front bevel gear in the wheel hub will be damaged somehow, by the additional stress. I am going to call the dealer tomorrow, to find out what the service manager says. It seems funny to me, that you can't adjust front tire width to accommodate your rows. My old A/C D17 (2wd) was infinitely adjustable. In the case of the L4400, I was not planing on using it to do a lot of planting, but I was thinking of doing some food plots.

 

[Gary Fowler]

As some one pointed out, you need to adjust your wheels to fit the rows so the fronts match the back. If they dont allow you to move the fronts, then I guess the tractor was only meant for FEL work or mowing and you need another tractor for gardening. Better hang on to the old D17 or 8N. I have been running my Yanmar 4220D with the wheels turned out for nearly 3 years and no problems. It does steer differently with them turned out, but I challenge anyone including manufacturer to prove that it causes more stress on the axle. The force on the axle acts like a simple lever, pushing one way and pulling the other. It cant put any more force on the axle than the amount of dish in the rim. If you added spacers to the axles like some folks have to do with the SCUTs for chain clearance etc. then you would put more stresses on the axle. A tractor with no adjustment to wheel base has very limited uses as a tractor. Just my H.O.

 

[art]

Please explain your thinking here.

What part, would you like to know more about? It's not thinking, it's whats learned!

 

[dcyrilc]

What part, would you like to know more about? It's not thinking, it's whats learned!

The part of stress, while yes you have added that to the front axle bearings, housings and axles in a huge way by the foam filled fronts.

The wording here isn't making sense to me. I'm just asking if you can maybe reword it so I understand your point.

Foam filled tires are neutral in regards to stress on front axle bearings, housings, and axles. The only time they would place additional stress on the front axle bearings is if the wheels are in the air and this is still much less than a full loader bucket puts on them.

TIA for any clairifiation.

 

[davygp38]

The wording here isn't making sense to me. I'm just asking if you can maybe reword it so I understand your point.

Foam filled tires are neutral in regards to stress on front axle bearings, housings, and axles. The only time they would place additional stress on the front axle bearings is if the wheels are in the air and this is still much less than a full loader bucket puts on them.

TIA for any clairifiation.

I have to agree with you on the Foam filled tires. The ground is supporting the tires, the weight of the tires is a non issue. The only concern I have heard was that the tires have a lot less give in them, so you get a rougher ride. I am willing to risk it.

 

[davygp38]

As some one pointed out, you need to adjust your wheels to fit the rows so the fronts match the back. If they dont allow you to move the fronts, then I guess the tractor was only meant for FEL work or mowing and you need another tractor for gardening. Better hang on to the old D17 or 8N. I have been running my Yanmar 4220D with the wheels turned out for nearly 3 years and no problems. It does steer differently with them turned out, but I challenge anyone including manufacturer to prove that it causes more stress on the axle. The force on the axle acts like a simple lever, pushing one way and pulling the other. It cant put any more force on the axle than the amount of dish in the rim. If you added spacers to the axles like some folks have to do with the SCUTs for chain clearance etc. then you would put more stresses on the axle. A tractor with no adjustment to wheel base has very limited uses as a tractor. Just my H.O.

Got rid of the D17 two years ago. I was always working on it. The power steering was starting to go, and that was a job for superman, not me.