What is Grey market???

[seaweaver]

What in the world?
I know Yamnar from the marine industry...a big name/ old name.
Now I see this Best used tractors.com....and flip...they are talking about me buying CONTAINERS of tractors...a or b grade
And What is the deal w/ them being all re-cons??? WHAT are the japs doing to wear out so many tractors that there is a huge market to refurb and ship them here by the container? What is the chain that put so many in the hands of the VC for refurb?
Thanks
cw

 

[clemsonfor]

What in the world?
I know Yamnar from the marine industry...a big name/ old name.
Now I see this Best used tractors.com....and flip...they are talking about me buying CONTAINERS of tractors...a or b grade
And What is the deal w/ them being all re-cons??? WHAT are the japs doing to wear out so many tractors that there is a huge market to refurb and ship them here by the container? What is the chain that put so many in the hands of the VC for refurb?
Thanks
cw

The japs have tax incentives to buy new tractors, it makes used ones not a good deal. They are worn out cause many are 30 years old you see here, well not really worn out but old and rusty. Many refurbs may just need a seat paint and a few other minor things others a total rebuild or parts swap. There is a free market and vietnam can buy anything they want , they buy the C D grade tractors were told and then rubuild them or piece them into one unit, and sell then in the US cause they can do all that and ship them here cheaper than we can buy a 25-30 year old JD or ford.

The japanese usually use them to till rice patties, basically mucky mud when wet and soft moist dirt when dry. There is not much wear on them and they only do it for short perods twice or so a year. I have heard that may farms in the 20 acre size have tractors and there still are many that size or there were in the 70's when they bought these current yanmars. The super small ones use big walk behind tillers.

 

[Thomas]

Also find some models (more so w/older models) less saftey devices..ROPS,swtiches.

 

[seaweaver]

Thanks, It kinda caught me by surprise to see container loads being sold...
who would do that w/o inspecting each one? Is the container such a deal it does not matter how many bad ones make it in?
cw

 

[clemsonfor]

You buy "b" grade tractors. In the description they give it means say all seats need replacing less than XXX hours no transmissions problems. I made this up but im sure there specs that allow a tractor to make it in the container, if you have a blown up one im sure they will make good on it. But i think you get like 10 tractors in a container dissasembled with the 3pt arms off the tires off, and there stacked in there. Based on what these older YM models have sold for, with those who purchase the container having to put a new seat on all flid changers some new seals and maybe paint and still turn a profit i think they are no more than a couple thousand per unit mabe half that, but with customs fees shipping etc i can easily see having 20-30 K tied up in one container before any refurbishing costs.

 

[neucam]

I think Kubota is best known for the term grey market, Kubota built tractors for a Zennoh cooperative in Japan, they were leased for many years by small farmers then finally imported to other countries including the US. Kubota thought they were infriging on there sales so they banned them from the US around 1997 or so. Many models were a carbon copy of american models but had Japanese labels some places, not really a big deal. Kubota said the tractors did not have ROPS and PTO shields, but US imported Kubotas did not have that either. My local dealer has 2 or 3 used US Kubotas without these safety measures, so it is a funny issue.

 

[Arkie Jim]

I think Kubota is best known for the term grey market, Kubota built tractors for a Zennoh cooperative in Japan, they were leased for many years by small farmers then finally imported to other countries including the US. Kubota thought they were infriging on there sales so they banned them from the US around 1997 or so. Many models were a carbon copy of american models but had Japanese labels some places, not really a big deal. Kubota said the tractors did not have ROPS and PTO shields, but US imported Kubotas did not have that either. My local dealer has 2 or 3 used US Kubotas without these safety measures, so it is a funny issue.

My Satoh Buck is Japanese made but is not a grey market tractor. The term grey market is where they go around dealers and are sold by private sellers. They are not US equipped or regulated for safety or to fit our implements. All 540 PTO implements will fit my tractor.
Parts is hard to find for grey market tractors unless you find a bootlegger and there is many of those.
My tractor has all of the manuals plus I can order any parts on line that I need.
The understanding I have of grey market tractors is that in Japan they are made for the rice fields only and require no other implements so will the US imported tractor implemets fix the grey market ones--I have been told they will not work due to not being converted for US use. Like German cars did not have safety glass, so they had to be converted to US specs.
The internet sites can be located to tell you by serial number if it is a grey market tractor.

A surprise that will puzzle many Americans when you make the statement that I buy John Deere American Made---You want to bet. Yanmar has been connected to John Deere from the beginning--they were partners---Yanmar has been making the engines for John Deere from creation---Yanmar is the creator and designer of the Diesel engine and all John Deere products use them. Many other companies use the Yanmar engines also.

 

[/pine]

The term "Gray Market" usually means they were not manufactured to be sold in the United States....

Not all of the Vietnamese "reconditioned" tractors are necessarily "gray market" machines....

There are model number charts for Kubota and Yanmar available on the net that show which model #s were intended to be sold in the US ....

 

[clemsonfor]

My Satoh Buck is Japanese made but is not a grey market tractor. The term grey market is where they go around dealers and are sold by private sellers. They are not US equipped or regulated for safety or to fit our implements. All 540 PTO implements will fit my tractor.
Parts is hard to find for grey market tractors unless you find a bootlegger and there is many of those.
My tractor has all of the manuals plus I can order any parts on line that I need.
The understanding I have of grey market tractors is that in Japan they are made for the rice fields only and require no other implements so will the US imported tractor implemets fix the grey market ones--I have been told they will not work due to not being converted for US use. Like German cars did not have safety glass, so they had to be converted to US specs.
The internet sites can be located to tell you by serial number if it is a grey market tractor.

A surprise that will puzzle many Americans when you make the statement that I buy John Deere American Made---You want to bet. Yanmar has been connected to John Deere from the beginning--they were partners---Yanmar has been making the engines for John Deere from creation---Yanmar is the creator and designer of the Diesel engine and all John Deere products use them. Many other companies use the Yanmar engines also.

Not all JD tractors have a yanmar engine in them. All the large Ag tractors will have an actual JD deisel in them whith a JD plate on the engine. The 20 , 30 and 40 series tractors and maybe the 50 series will have Yanmar deisel engines in them back into the 80's i beleive. Some of the older JD's like the 850 and 970 etc are exact copies of yanmars , i mean the entire tractor, same ignition key, same seat same hydraulics same starter same fuel bowl etc. I m not really a JD expert but i know this or 99% of it is true.

That said i do own a Grey market Yanmar tractor. Grey Market is a term used if that tractor was not built to be sold in the US. A general rule of thumb is that they did not have pto shields and rops. That is not the only rule. If yanmar USA sold YM2000's outside it as used tractors (not that they would, they do not recognize they exist here due to lawsuits) they would still be grey's. My Made for the japanees market Ym2000 tractor will fit all Cat 1 implemts made here in the US without mods. Same lift arms same PTO gears etc. I just happen to have a 3 speed Pto instead of a 2 speed which the US yanmars had. I can still get availible parts from yanmar USA if i tell them the us model number for the tractor (ym240) and i can even get parts from JD for certain things on my tractor if i know what they come off of in the JD line up. That is if i wanted to. I can buy them offline from HOye tractor (a yanmar parts supplier) and pay less for the same part to fit my tractor than from yanmar USA or JD. Some of these parts , which may not be in production anymore yes are made in china or india by a parts suppleir, but others come in a yanmar bag and would be the same thing i would get from JD or Yanmar USA. Just adding something to the conversation.

 

[Heywood Jannockitov]

Yanmar is the creator and designer of the Diesel engine...

Good ole Rudolph Yanmar! :laughing:

 

[Duffster]

Good ole Rudolph Yanmar! :laughing:

:laughing::thumbsup:

 

[Arkie Jim]

Not all JD tractors have a yanmar engine in them. All the large Ag tractors will have an actual JD deisel in them whith a JD plate on the engine. The 20 , 30 and 40 series tractors and maybe the 50 series will have Yanmar deisel engines in them back into the 80's i beleive. Some of the older JD's like the 850 and 970 etc are exact copies of yanmars , i mean the entire tractor, same ignition key, same seat same hydraulics same starter same fuel bowl etc. I m not really a JD expert but i know this or 99% of it is true.

That said i do own a Grey market Yanmar tractor. Grey Market is a term used if that tractor was not built to be sold in the US. A general rule of thumb is that they did not have pto shields and rops. That is not the only rule. If yanmar USA sold YM2000's outside it as used tractors (not that they would, they do not recognize they exist here due to lawsuits) they would still be grey's. My Made for the japanees market Ym2000 tractor will fit all Cat 1 implemts made here in the US without mods. Same lift arms same PTO gears etc. I just happen to have a 3 speed Pto instead of a 2 speed which the US yanmars had. I can still get availible parts from yanmar USA if i tell them the us model number for the tractor (ym240) and i can even get parts from JD for certain things on my tractor if i know what they come off of in the JD line up. That is if i wanted to. I can buy them offline from HOye tractor (a yanmar parts supplier) and pay less for the same part to fit my tractor than from yanmar USA or JD. Some of these parts , which may not be in production anymore yes are made in china or india by a parts suppleir, but others come in a yanmar bag and would be the same thing i would get from JD or Yanmar USA. Just adding something to the conversation.

Basically you and I are saying the same things about Grey market tractors, but you are more in detail on other models. I just researched the Satoh Buck
and found out a lot of information. To be honest I passed up a great deal on a Yanmar with a bucket and bush hog because I was dumb when dealing with foreign tractors and at first I did not fully understand the full meaning of the term Grey market and I was scared to buy one until I finally did a lot of reading, glad I did. I keep my fingers crossed but so far I have not had to buy any parts other than filters and oil. My Buck still runs great and last night I re-read the operators manual and it is surprising how much you miss and can use additional information I missed.
I want to help those that may be scared of foreign tractors---As any thing it is best to know what you are buying and the condition of the tractor. I know some owners that avoided the Diesels and bought gas tractors, but now wish they had gone the other way. My tractor I used it almost all day today tilling a open field and making a garden spot probably about 1/2 acre or more. I ran it full power the entire time and had no problem.
I really need to use my tractor more often. The ballast problem in the front end can be solved in a great part if you reduce the throttle prior to turning and make sure you raise the implement before turning. I tried it today and found out the wheel stands were not as bad and was really caused by the heavy throttle speed.

 

[clemsonfor]

Basically you and I are saying the same things about Grey market tractors, but you are more in detail on other models. I just researched the Satoh Buck
and found out a lot of information. To be honest I passed up a great deal on a Yanmar with a bucket and bush hog because I was dumb when dealing with foreign tractors and at first I did not fully understand the full meaning of the term Grey market and I was scared to buy one until I finally did a lot of reading, glad I did. I keep my fingers crossed but so far I have not had to buy any parts other than filters and oil. My Buck still runs great and last night I re-read the operators manual and it is surprising how much you miss and can use additional information I missed.
I want to help those that may be scared of foreign tractors---As any thing it is best to know what you are buying and the condition of the tractor. I know some owners that avoided the Diesels and bought gas tractors, but now wish they had gone the other way. My tractor I used it almost all day today tilling a open field and making a garden spot probably about 1/2 acre or more. I ran it full power the entire time and had no problem.
I really need to use my tractor more often. The ballast problem in the front end can be solved in a great part if you reduce the throttle prior to turning and make sure you raise the implement before turning. I tried it today and found out the wheel stands were not as bad and was really caused by the heavy throttle speed.

Unlike gas models deisels are desinged to be operated at full throttle and for all day if neccisary. NOt redlined but full working rpms, you will do more harm lugging a deisel than running at the rated rpm. As for throttle and light frontend, get some weight. I had about 80lbs on front of my yanmar with was great for tillers or bushhogs from being light, but when using the boom pole of my 4 ft disk with 300lbs on top, making it weight in the 600lb range the front was light almost neutral in weight. I have a friend who filled a 3" diameter pipe with lead and is welding it to my existing solid 3" steel bar i had made into a bumper. This should give me right around 200lbs on the front. The manual i beleive says 240lbs is what it is rated at. You can buy suitcase weights, they just cost, or you can get some railroad track and cut a piece to a deseired weight, by doing some calculations of the know rail weight obtained of the internet. MY problem was finding someone to cut the rail, this may not be a problem for you. Another way i thought about is welding up a box and filling it with scrap lead and steel like brake rotors etc. This could easily get you weight fast if u used lead wheel weights (where we got the lead for the bumper).

 

[EFC]

What in the world?
I know Yamnar from the marine industry...a big name/ old name.
Now I see this Best used tractors.com....and flip...they are talking about me buying CONTAINERS of tractors...a or b grade
And What is the deal w/ them being all re-cons??? WHAT are the japs doing to wear out so many tractors that there is a huge market to refurb and ship them here by the container? What is the chain that put so many in the hands of the VC for refurb?
Thanks
cw

I would say the market is not as huge as it used to be but still big enough to be viable. There are two kinds of tractors available for export in Japan. Used working and used junk. The junk and scraps are bought by Vietnamese labor factories for almost nothing which they spend almost nothing to salvage back together and sell to us for a considerable markup. The A and B tractors are marketed to any county looking for solid compact used tractors and are never purchased by the Vietnamese for refurb/salvage.

The reason for the high export ratio is taxation. The tractor has a yearly tax associated with it that is ever increasing. Why pay a huge tax bill on a used tractor when a new tractor has no annual tax. In Japan you pay the dealer to take your tractor when you trade it in. And if the dealer doesnt move it he will have to pay the tax so it is sold to an export yard. If the export yard doesnt move it then they pay the tax. So prices stay low to keep the flow moving. Of course worldwide demand has risen prices significantly and with the yen in the 80 range most of the advantages of the Japanese tractors are gone.

I flew to Japan each month to pick our tractors out in person. One or two bad tractors per container gets real expensive over time. Having a company send you tractors off a list of pictures and descriptions is like a 50 thousand dollar box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get.

your original question was what is grey market. It has been asked a thousand times on TBN with a thousand wrong answers. The basic definition is Grey market is that it is an "importation tag" it has nothing to do with how something is configured or built, sold or supported or who built it. It also has nothing to do with if it does or does not meet OSHA, EPA or any other regulation for that matter. It doesnt even really designate whether it is new or used. All it really means is the item being imported (and this could be a TV set, Tractor or spaceship) was not sold new in the country it is being exported to by the manufacturer.

Buck

 

[EFC]

Our last container (last week) cost us $54,000 the Yen was at 84 to the dollar !

Yuk :-(

 

[DonWorrell]

Grey market tractor are OK but make sure you know what you are buying. Some grey market tractors have an American counterpart, part are eaiser to find but if you buy a tractor which wasn't ever sold in he US even under a different name you could have plenty of problems finding parts. And when you do you will pay dearly for them. I own an Iseki TS2205. Iseki's were manufactored under the White. Bolen, Allis Chalmber and other labels to be sold in he US, but a TS2205 doesn't have a counterpart in the US. Some parts must be bought in Japan, others can be bought used. I bought a gasket for a water pump and it cost me nearly $40.00.

So make sure you know what you are buying!

Don

 

[clemsonfor]

Grey market tractor are OK but make sure you know what you are buying. Some grey market tractors have an American counterpart, part are eaiser to find but if you buy a tractor which wasn't ever sold in he US even under a different name you could have plenty of problems finding parts. And when you do you will pay dearly for them. I own an Iseki TS2205. Iseki's were manufactored under the White. Bolen, Allis Chalmber and other labels to be sold in he US, but a TS2205 doesn't have a counterpart in the US. Some parts must be bought in Japan, others can be bought used. I bought a gasket for a water pump and it cost me nearly $40.00.

So make sure you know what you are buying!

Don

$40... WHY. You can make gaskets out of gasket paper. Thats the way all old farmers and poor folk did it 50 years ago before easy replacement parts. Or you can use RTV.

 

[clemsonfor]

I would say the market is not as huge as it used to be but still big enough to be viable. There are two kinds of tractors available for export in Japan. Used working and used junk. The junk and scraps are bought by Vietnamese labor factories for almost nothing which they spend almost nothing to salvage back together and sell to us for a considerable markup. The A and B tractors are marketed to any county looking for solid compact used tractors and are never purchased by the Vietnamese for refurb/salvage.

The reason for the high export ratio is taxation. The tractor has a yearly tax associated with it that is ever increasing. Why pay a huge tax bill on a used tractor when a new tractor has no annual tax. In Japan you pay the dealer to take your tractor when you trade it in. And if the dealer doesnt move it he will have to pay the tax so it is sold to an export yard. If the export yard doesnt move it then they pay the tax. So prices stay low to keep the flow moving. Of course worldwide demand has risen prices significantly and with the yen in the 80 range most of the advantages of the Japanese tractors are gone.

I flew to Japan each month to pick our tractors out in person. One or two bad tractors per container gets real expensive over time. Having a company send you tractors off a list of pictures and descriptions is like a 50 thousand dollar box of chocolates, you never know what your going to get.

your original question was what is grey market. It has been asked a thousand times on TBN with a thousand wrong answers. The basic definition is Grey market is that it is an "importation tag" it has nothing to do with how something is configured or built, sold or supported or who built it. It also has nothing to do with if it does or does not meet OSHA, EPA or any other regulation for that matter. It doesnt even really designate whether it is new or used. All it really means is the item being imported (and this could be a TV set, Tractor or spaceship) was not sold new in the country it is being exported to by the manufacturer.

Buck

I heard a dealer on hear about a year ago say that good ym's (yanmars) were getting hard to find as the VN market was buy ing up many tractors, which contradicts what you say here and what others have said. Supposedly they are not buying the same tractors as you guys so why is there competition felt? Makes one wonder? Just repeating what i heard. I have not considered getting into this, i just frequent these forums.

 

[YanmarFever]

I heard a dealer on hear about a year ago say that good ym's (yanmars) were getting hard to find as the VN market was buy ing up many tractors, which contradicts what you say here and what others have said. Supposedly they are not buying the same tractors as you guys so why is there competition felt? Makes one wonder? Just repeating what i heard. I have not considered getting into this, i just frequent these forums.

Sorry to say that your (dealer friend) is mistaken.

Our supplier in Japan has plenty of machines for sale (nice tractors) since the 1980s

They say that when the vietcongs buyers show up to buy tractors, they still head for their junk pile, they don't even look at the nice ones $$

The Vietcong tractors are rebuilt junk..... nothing more than lipstick on a pig.