Rolled my 3240, and it ran till it blew ??

[crazyal]

I just may pick up a small filter and let the breather just vent to atmosphere through it. I'll put a loop or two in the line so oil can't make it out and pipe it away from anything hot just in case. When I was racing we would just replace the PCV with a filter. Trying to fit a shut off valve in the air intake line sounds like it could be hard. However if someone does it I would love to see pictures and what parts were used.

I uess this is one of those subjects that touch everyone here since it could happen to any of us.

 

[eepete]

When I went for my "ride", I shut the engine off in less than a second after it hit the ground. No run on. Have no idea if how long you wait to shut it off has any effect or not.

I hiked up using the ROPs, and then when it hit the ground I dropped down and turned off the key. I had the hay bail in the backhoe :ashamed:, so the tip-trip was somewhat slow motion and gentle, it took about 1.5 seconds.

An amazing amount of learning packed into a few seconds on that day... The picture does not do the slope justice (well, or, maybee it does...)

Pete

 

[_RaT_]

Differential lock! High Range! it might be possible.

If you look at my avatar, that's a L4850 that flipped head over heals twice. I was not the operator. The operator was not wearing a seat belt, he jumped, the roll bar bent over. It was all operator error. The tractor came to rest on its side, the 5 cylinder diesel running. That model has a electric fuel shutoff and a manual fuel shut off. It killed the engine, luckily. I sure hope this owner that posted gets a break.

Think about it. With one wheel in the air, you are not going to stall an engine, reguardless of what kind of transmission you have.

 

[DiezNutz]

I just may pick up a small filter and let the breather just vent to atmosphere through it. I'll put a loop or two in the line so oil can't make it out and pipe it away from anything hot just in case. When I was racing we would just replace the PCV with a filter. Trying to fit a shut off valve in the air intake line sounds like it could be hard. However if someone does it I would love to see pictures and what parts were used.

Al, I thank you for this post. Finally, someone else that "gets it". :thumbsup: And not only might it be hard, but any extra crap you hapharzardly stick in the intake path of a normally-aspirated Diesel will probably create additional restriction/drag and rob performance.

Gang, if you "break" the connection between valve cover and intake, and therefore the alternative fuel oil supply, you've succeeded. Either by a cutoff valve in the breather tube, or by converting to an external breather. There is no need for some sort of convoluted jury-rigged air shutoff! I don't mean to sound preachy, but it's like people aren't even reading what they are posting, let alone what others have posted.

Now, if you were planning on operating your tractor near a massive natural gas leak, that's a different story altogether, and maybe you do need an air shutoff. However in that scenario, I doubt runaway should be your biggest concern... and maybe you should be running away instead.

I guess on the electronic injection engines this would not be an issue since the ignition key would kill the injection system.

Makes no difference. The ignition key "killed" the OP's injection system. A common rail/piezo injector system would have done the same thing in this situation, as the injection system was not the source of fuel.

 

[JoshPA]

Instead of a breather alone, go for a catch can such as this:

 

[Big Wave D]

DiezNutz,

Okay, you sort of chided me for my post:

Somebody didn't read before posting.

However, you're not the only one...

Originally Posted by Big Wave D
Is there any way to splice a check/ball valve into the crankcase vent tube to at least prohibit enough oil from making its way into the air intake to support continue running?

How is it any different than what you're suggesting?

I see that the best choice might be to completely take away the path from valve cover to intake, but you yourself posted, "Either by a cutoff valve in the breather tube, or by converting to an external breather."

What didn't "I read before posting"?

It appears we are saying the same thing.

 

[DiezNutz]

It appears we are saying the same thing.

Oh, we are.

Way back at post #11.
CrazyAl's post #16.
Me again, post #54.
Your question, post #57. Granted, I posted a lot and maybe you didn't feel like reading it all. :laughing:

Sorry Friend, I didn't mean to single you out or seem like I was chiding you... Think of it more as a good-natured poke in the ribs. You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when I was making a point about many redundant posts because it seemed like nobody was reading what anybody else wrote.

No offense, I hope!
-DN

 

[harleyguy302]

I did this with my BX24. Was mowing with my rotary cutter on a slight incline. It was the first time I had mowed this property. I stump pushed up on my cutter and tipped the tractor over. I got off with the engine RPM getting faster and faster, oil flying it the air. Looked like I struck oil!! I had everything off and was dumb founded why the thing wouldn't shut off. My neighbor came running up, we were able to open the hood, He grabbed the air intake hose and squeezed it together and chocked the engine till it quit running. What an oily mess.... He went and got his old 8N pulled me up right and I left it there over night. Came out the next day added oil and prayed. Turned the key and it fired back up. Took it home, changed the oil and have been using it ever since. That was around 50 hrs ago. It think the engine is a little noisier now (or I am just paranoid now) but it does everything like it used to and you'd never know it was on its side. It's a tough little tracter. It thinks it is bigger than it is.

 

[bitseeker]

. . .Came out the next day added oil and prayed. Turned the key and it fired back up. . . .

At the risk of being redundant, and for the benefit of others who may start reading before the end of this thread, this a repeat of one of the things I learned here:

After a rollover, DO NOT START THE ENGINE before ensuring there is not a hydraulic lock. Turn it over by hand. If you cannot, remove glowplugs and turn over to remove the fluid blocking the pistons. Attempting to start the engine with a lock will bend rods, or worse.

 

[Big Wave D]

Little off topic but does have to do with the burning of oil, anybody driving around smelling like french fries?

I've heard of people running automotive diesels (usually old Mercedes, it seems like) and even heard of a tour bus on food grade oil.

Has anyone done this with their tractor because they have a cheap/free and plentiful source?

Your injectors and pump would have liberally lubricated. :laughing::laughing:

 

[Tachdriver]

This incident scares the crap out of me. The thought of a crankcase vent tube supplying a runaway to destroy a new tractor is difficult to take in, considering that all one would need is a catch can. This makes me want to look over my bx25 and see how it is arranged. Heck I'll invest in a $80 piece of security to help prevent it.

Jaz 605-325-01 - Jaz Products Breather Tanks - Overview - SummitRacing.com


later

 

[bitseeker]

This incident scares the crap out of me. The thought of a crankcase vent tube supplying a runaway to destroy a new tractor is difficult to take in, considering that all one would need is a catch can. This makes me want to look over my bx25 and see how it is arranged. Heck I'll invest in a $80 piece of security to help prevent it.

Jaz 605-325-01 - Jaz Products Breather Tanks - Overview - SummitRacing.com


later

I think you are saying that by re-routing the crankcase vent line from the tractor's air intake to a unit like the example one pint Breather / Catch-Tank, there would be no fuel in case of a roll-over. Is that correct? It seems reasonable.

Has anyone used this unit or something like it? How would the size be selected to suit the engine?

I see that Amazon has the Jaz Products 605-375-01 Mini-Breather Tank with 0.375" Fittings
for $50, but no photo there for comparison with the unit offered by Summit Racing.

 

[Hvytrkmech]

I appreciate all the varied opinions offered in this thread. My opinion is a little different. In my experience I have never seen or had a 4 stroke diesel engine run away, now I am not saying that they can't run away, just saying it is extremely unusual and extremely rare for it to happen. I have seen 2 strokes run till they grenade and for different reasons. 1- mechanical governor failure, (the most common but can create the drafting issue). 2- the scavenging of oil vapors from an engine with overheated oil.

Now with that being said I would like to offer a different scenario. If a diesel engine has glow plugs it is a lower compression engine that needs the glow plugs to heat the cylinder air to aid, or in some cases completely enable cold start combustion. Now here is my point, how does this lower combustion engine have enough compression to ignite straight engine oil let alone synthetic oil?

I think that oil was mixing with fuel, the fuel was running the engine and the oil was creating all the smoke. What are the chances of lets say, maybe a fuel rack sticking because it was on its side?

Another clue, of all the posts in this thread I did not see one time where it was stated that the engine ran to over speed, just that it was running at wot. I also think that the increasing volume of engine oil entering the combustion chambers is what actually shut down the engine.

I say check your ignition switch and safety switch's.

JMO folks, flame away.

 

[kuboman]

I appreciate all the varied opinions offered in this thread. My opinion is a little different. In my experience I have never seen or had a 4 stroke diesel engine run away, now I am not saying that they can't run away, just saying it is extremely unusual and extremely rare for it to happen. I have seen 2 strokes run till they grenade and for different reasons. 1- mechanical governor failure, (the most common but can create the drafting issue). 2- the scavenging of oil vapors from an engine with overheated oil.

Now with that being said I would like to offer a different scenario. If a diesel engine has glow plugs it is a lower compression engine that needs the glow plugs to heat the cylinder air to aid, or in some cases completely enable cold start combustion. Now here is my point, how does this lower combustion engine have enough compression to ignite straight engine oil let alone synthetic oil?

I think that oil was mixing with fuel, the fuel was running the engine and the oil was creating all the smoke. What are the chances of lets say, maybe a fuel rack sticking because it was on its side?

Another clue, of all the posts in this thread I did not see one time where it was stated that the engine ran to over speed, just that it was running at wot. I also think that the increasing volume of engine oil entering the combustion chambers is what actually shut down the engine.

I say check your ignition switch and safety switch's.

JMO folks, flame away.

Not unusual at all for a diesel to run on oil once it is warmed up and running. With positive crankcase ventilation and an upside down engine it would run until it ran out of oil.

 

[aczlan]

I appreciate all the varied opinions offered in this thread. My opinion is a little different. In my experience I have never seen or had a 4 stroke diesel engine run away, now I am not saying that they can't run away, just saying it is extremely unusual and extremely rare for it to happen. I have seen 2 strokes run till they grenade and for different reasons. 1- mechanical governor failure, (the most common but can create the drafting issue). 2- the scavenging of oil vapors from an engine with overheated oil.

See: Diesel engine runaway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It is more common on older turbodiesels with bad turbo oil seals or on engines with loose valves/rings, but it has been known to happen.

Now with that being said I would like to offer a different scenario. If a diesel engine has glow plugs it is a lower compression engine that needs the glow plugs to heat the cylinder air to aid, or in some cases completely enable cold start combustion. Now here is my point, how does this lower combustion engine have enough compression to ignite straight engine oil let alone synthetic oil?

Most diesel engines have glowplugs or intake heater grids. This is because when the block is cold, it cools the air as it is compressed, preventing the air/atomized fuel from reaching the ignition temperature. See: Glowplug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more details. Once it is hot, it will burn most anything flammable

I think that oil was mixing with fuel, the fuel was running the engine and the oil was creating all the smoke. What are the chances of lets say, maybe a fuel rack sticking because it was on its side?
Another clue, of all the posts in this thread I did not see one time where it was stated that the engine ran to over speed, just that it was running at wot. I also think that the increasing volume of engine oil entering the combustion chambers is what actually shut down the engine.

Well from what the OP said (bolding mine):

Now I am REALLY POed!!! the darn thing would not shut off!!, I pulled the key, hit every safety switch, made sure the seat safety switch was depressed and hit the go pedal, kicked in the PTO, pulled all the fuses, made sure the throttle was at idle, I couldn't get the hood open to get to the air cleaner, the darn thing just screamed wide open and blew all the oil out the exhaust until it quit, probably 10 minutes, (seized I suspect)

I would say that it was running a little faster than normal. But that is just me.

Aaron Z

 

[Hvytrkmech]

Most diesel engines have glowplugs or intake heater grids. This is because when the block is cold, it cools the air as it is compressed, preventing the air/atomized fuel from reaching the ignition temperature. See: Glowplug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for more details. Once it is hot, it will burn most anything flammable

Completely untrue on both counts. Only light duty diesels have glow plugs or grid heaters. The class 6 market just recently started to use grid heaters on certain applications. 27 years of wrenching on class 6 and 8 trucks I will take my training from the pro's at Cat, Cummins, Navistar and a little bit of Detroit. You can use Wiki.

Put gas in your Bota and let us know how that works out for you.

 

[westcliffe01]

Sorry, I see someone else suggested the same solution earlier

 

[Qapla]

A friend of mine has a Bobcat Trachoe with a 13HP Kubota engine. He drooped it off a sidewalk a few years back - just one track - and it fell over on it's side. He dove off just before it hit but still got one foot stuck. The hoe was still running, but not racing.

Someone on the job site came over and helped pull him out. When his other worker and me came over, the hoe was still running. It did shut off with the key.

A loader worker on the site came over and lifted his hoe upright. We cranked it up and moved it squarely on the sidewalk. Since his foot hurt, I finished the ditches and digging for the day.

It took several months before his foot was back to 100%, though he still has some problems with it off and on.

We have used the hoe quite a bit since over several years, quite hard at times and it never suffered from the fall.

Like someone mentioned, if yours isn't working (seized up or such) I would try to get Kubota to fix it.

 

[taborekle]

I liked the suggestion (about 30 posts back) to use a fire extinguisher. With a CO2 extinguisher (NOT dry chemical), you should be able to aim it at the engine cowling and let fly. The engine will suck it in and, with no oxygen to support combustion will shut down. It's cheap, would not do any harm to the engine, could be easily mounted, and it's handy if you run into -other- problems.

 

[PoorMansCat]

AMOT, Barber Coleman, Rig Saver... seveal manufacturers make positive ASO's for diesel engines.
The easiest to install is an inline into the air stream with a 12v actuator to trip it off of a momentary switch. Basically push a button, the actuator releases the spring loaded shaft and it slams closed.
As for the CO2 idea, yes, it WILL work, but remember, a diesel will continue to run at less than 1:1 AFR, in other words, while you can kill a gas engine by taking most of the air away for a few seconds, a DIESEL will have to be completely WITHOUT oxygen until the crankshaft comes to a complete stop. SO make sure you aim well with the CO2, and make sure you have enough..
4Stroke engine WILL run away.... I've been there and seen it happen... I've had 3000HP engines try to get away from me.. Good thing the engine had Barber-Colemans on it... Had a 1000 hp. wood chipper engine that did get away with no ASO's and didn't stop turning until it threw the valvetrain apart.
A cold diesel at low idle usually won't run away on a little oil, but if the engine is warmed up or has some speed on it and gets a snort of warm/hot dirty oil.... she's heading for the moon!!!. Shutting of the air supply is the ONLY way to effectively kill a runaway.
On smaller engines with no ASO's... If I've done major work concerning the fuel system, I pull the intake plumbing and keep my clipboard handy..