Ballast It must be a conspiracy.

[sbakf]

Based on the tractor I own (L5740, first one) and the one I知 about to buy (BX2660), one purchase invariably necessitates another.

Why are tractors of today so unstable? Is it their diminished length and width lest not forget weight. Granted, all tractors need add-on implements to make them useful and it痴 a plus that each attachment lends some added stability to the platform that carries it. What bugs me though, is why it seems that each implement must be counterbalanced by another. Case in point - dealer called me about my BX2660 with 60 MMM and attached 42 rotary cutter. He suggested that I go ahead and add the FEL to my purchase to counter the weight of the RC. Seems the BX got awfully light up front with RC attached. I tested it today. Yep have to agree. I stood on a slightly raised RC and the front wheels on the BX became airborne. A FEL is a rather expensive counterweight a set of front weights would be far cheaper. But - why should I be compelled to buy either?

 

[Redgoatea]

I'm not sure that tractors have gotten smaller or lighter that recently. The main reason I just got a JD 870 is that I got tired of having to stand up on my '72 Mitsubishi when brush jogging to keep the front end on the ground.

That being said I agree with your point. I think all FEL's should come with a ballast box and you can get a discount if you opt out of the box. But I don't make or sell tractors so I just have to do some smart shopping and always remember to do my own balancing. I keep forgetting it's a ride on adjustable tool not an actual vehicle. 7

 

[BigD23]

Thinking back to when I was young (in the 60's), my dad had a Ford 9N...No front loader, wide stance and AG tires...With no implements on the 3ph, that puppy threw one heck of a nice wheel stand...The older tractors were built well/balanced indeed, but I'd take todays SCUTs over them...If you don't want to spend the money for a front loader (which I leave on all the time), weights for the front end are a nice/inexpensive alternative.

Don

 

[MikeInEburg]

Funny thing is that I can't imagine a small tractor WITHOUT a front end loader. In my view, the FEL provides half of the usefulness of a tractor. If this weren't the case, my wife wouldn't call it my "30 horsepower wheelbarrow".
Mike

 

[TripleR]

Actually in many cases and especially in the SCUT/CUT sector, I see the need to add counterbalance to be a good indicator of how well balanced they are. On these non Ag focused machines aimed primarily at lawn care minor chores, weight or lack thereof is very important.

Weight has to be pretty evenly balanced front to back and in order for it to handle several hundred pounds hanging off one end or the other weight has to be on the other end whether add on or designed. Since they can't know if a FEL or even a RC will ever be used on any given tractor it is designed to do well absent any attachments.

When you get into Ag sized stuff things change. There is a JD 7210 down at our barn with a FEL that I have yet to see anything on the 3-point.

Hopefully that made sense.

 

[Agrantina]

I have a L3240 with NO-- FEL and use it mainly for R cutting and pulling a 7ft disc and box blade work. We put in food plots for our hunting and thats about it. Dealer suggested weights on the front since I op out of the FEL. I have 3- 52lbs and the grill guard so I am guessing 200lbs on the front. WOW what a difference it makes. The reason I say that is because on day I had to try it with NO weights so I spent the 30 mins taking them off and found out what the weights did. Amazing how much just 200lbs makes. I have room for one more weight but really dont see the need right now.

AndyG

 

[corey9212]

I have a BX2660 and I always have A balast box for the rear and 4 suitcase weights (at 55 lbs each) on the front if I'm using either the mower deck or the 3 point the front weights are on and stay on, if I use the FEL I either use a 3 point implement with it or put the weights into the ballast box. I have had a few close calls with either the loader and raising the rear wheels off of the ground (apparently I even at one time had the tractor balanced on just the rear right tire and the other 3 off of the ground) or losing all traction on the front with something on the rear. I have a cab on my tractor and knowticed that it will sway side to side easier but counter balance is a must with this tractor.

BX2660
FEL, 60" MMM, pull 25 gal sprayer, box scraper, rear blade, drag harrow, disk harrow, lawn sweeper, broadcast spreader, ballast box, 4-55 lbs suitcase weights.

 

[Thomas]

I hear what your saying,one could say do to the type land shall be work or more plastic compare to metal also yester years iron long heavy cast engines,maybe lighter low weight less of chance of roll over??? getting so attachment cost almost much as tractor..all most,but it sure beat the heck out of armstrong shovel and pick.

 

[legbuh]

I hear ya too. I knew I wanted the FEL for my BX, but dealer said ballast box isn't really necessary unless I'm loading a lot.. well, i planned to, researched, and instead got a box blade. Now I have 2 implements I can't live without and work great together.

Getting a 50" tiller now too, and dealer said tilling with the FEL on would probably be a good idea as well... lol..

At least with a MMM I can remove everything.. I cant imagine mowing with the FEL on. I've gotten pretty quick at putting things on, taking them off.

 

[nebraskasparks]

Based on your previous post...I've been pouring over the new manuals which are terribly lacking in information. If I'm not mistaken when I was studying Ag Mechanics 109 at Nebraska the manuals were coming out with slope recommendations which I don't see on these tractors.

I did examine the Front Loader manual on my 5740 and the Rollback Force varies with bucket size but very common to all three buckets is the initial force when lifting the bucket from the ground can be as much as 2100 (kN) in the first 1000 millimeters of travel which isn't very high and explains your correct interpretation that your bucket never got over the grill. That's for the LA854 bucket. The LA724 wasn't far behind at around 1700-1800 (kN).

Interpretation in mho is that the moment arm is greatest and critical on any slope when first moving the bucket your first few feet. As the load/moment arm shifts further back the force comes over the center of the tractor. So the first four feet especially on a slope where the tractor is pointed down hill is critical. The only thing the manual shows is not to move a load sitting sideways on a hill (duhhhh). Kubota should definitely have some basic charts for calculating load and slope angles.

If I didn't read TBN posts I probably would have damaged something in the near term.
The fact that these new tractors can lift a ton without any problem

 

[jesseb3@att.net]

The balance issue holds true for virtually every type of tractor or excavator. If you do a search for "Loader endo", "Loader stoppie", "Dancing diggers" on youtube, you'll see even the big boys could do with a little more weight. (And the employers could do a better job of hiring.)

These guys are doing this intentionally, but if you've never seen these videos before, you may be suprised that those big loaders lift enough to counter their own engine's weight.

YouTube - Front End Loader Stoppie
YouTube - loader stoppie

I can't imagine how heavy my BX2350 would have to be to counter the implements, since weight attached to the tractor itself isn't nearly as effective as a longer (moment) implement.

 

[mwb]

... Kubota should definitely have some basic charts for calculating load and slope angles...

Manufactures are not able to do this for a few reasons; the first one would be liability. Second reason is dynamics; they have no way of calculating your center of gravity while on a slope lifting a load. They have no idea what you have or don't have for weights, 3pt implement, etc. Firmness of the ground, rate of speed and turns are also critical.

I bet a lot of tips happen not during raising loads but when lowering them; if you are lowering and stop with a jerk that would be the "straw that broke the camel's back".

The limits of your machine, and you as an operator have to be based on common sense and experience. Hopefully you have the first and don't wreck yourself getting the second.

 

[TripleR]

Manufactures are not able to do this for a few reasons; the first one would be liability. Second reason is dynamics; they have no way of calculating your center of gravity while on a slope lifting a load. They have no idea what you have or don't have for weights, 3pt implement, etc. Firmness of the ground, rate of speed and turns are also critical.

I bet a lot of tips happen not during raising loads but when lowering them; if you are lowering and stop with a jerk that would be the "straw that broke the camel's back".

The limits of your machine, and you as an operator have to be based on common sense and experience. Hopefully you have the first and don't wreck yourself getting the second.

Agree completely, just too many variables and I can guarantee that any table would be far too conservative to be of any real use. An example of this can be found on some of the implement limitations IE width of cutters etc.

 

[corey9212]

What they could do though is state maximum load without any ballast or counter weight and state max load with ballast or counter weight. Cause the manual just states what the maximum load the loader can handle. I know there is a lot of variables but having what the max load is with just the loader and tractor with nothing else on it is a good start to knowing limits.

 

[TripleR]

What they could do though is state maximum load without any ballast or counter weight and state max load with ballast or counter weight. Cause the manual just states what the maximum load the loader can handle. I know there is a lot of variables but having what the max load is with just the loader and tractor with nothing else on it is a good start to knowing limits.

Having spent years in courts watching lawyers get rich, I think doing so would only open them up to lawsuits when someone used this as an excuse for their mistake. Look at the millions Yamaha has been out with lawsuits on the Rhino.

Someone like nebraskasparks or an engineer could explain the variance in a static load or one in motion etc, and I believe due to product liability, the numbers given would be useless, I think my Rhino or Grizzly manuals say not to ascend a grade in excess of 15%. Who pays any attention to that, but it gets the manufacturer off the hook.

 

[corey9212]

Bu going by that then the manual shouldn't be giving the maximum lift capacity especially without saying with proper ballast. A lot of new people (I know a few) who got a tractor with a FEL for the first time and used it without any weight on the back and ended up in a bad situation very fast. They said they were under the max weight the loader can handle and can't figure it out cause it doesn't say max weight with counter weights. They see big tractors with nothing on the rear using a FEL with ease and not tipping so the little ones should as well. We of course know different but we were once all there and could have used that bit extra info. From the manual.

 

[TripleR]

Bu going by that then the manual shouldn't be giving the maximum lift capacity especially without saying with proper ballast. A lot of new people (I know a few) who got a tractor with a FEL for the first time and used it without any weight on the back and ended up in a bad situation very fast. They said they were under the max weight the loader can handle and can't figure it out cause it doesn't say max weight with counter weights. They see big tractors with nothing on the rear using a FEL with ease and not tipping so the little ones should as well. We of course know different but we were once all there and could have used that bit extra info. From the manual.

I have never seen a tractor manual that did not address the need for proper counter balance.

 

[corey9212]

It does later on in the manual. But at the beginning where it gives the specs it should say with proper counter weights. To cover their butts for legal issues. Some people don't read the manual till it's too late and an incident has happened (it was the case with my neighbor) she bought a tractor and FEL the dealer showed her how to use it, she got it home and started using it and tipped it forward cause of too much weight and no counter weight. She looked at the specs and it said it can lift that much so she called the dealer and they couldn't figure it out why it tipped (they presumed she knew about counter weights so never mentioned it to her) I talked to her and told her about them and showed her in the manual where near the end it talked about using them.

 

[rdsaustintx]

All the warning labels make 'em top-heavy.

 

[corey9212]

Anyone want to start a school teaching new owners how to safely use their equipment? Lesson one read manual before use. Lesson two read warning labels, lol. Seriously though it would be great idea to have some sort of school teaching people how to safely use equipment. Too many farmers need help but don't wan to train and too many new people getting tractors and don't know how to safely operate. We have courses for regular drivers and big truck drivers, now how about tractor drivers and using implements.