Rolled my 3240, and it ran till it blew ??

[Skyco]

I now have a pretty good understanding of what happened now but I still don't understand why it didn't die when I left the seat, I guess I didn't have my foot on the HST pedal and the PTO was not engaged so the safety features that kill the fuel were not activated and by the time I got to the ignition switch he tractor was already on it's side and oil was running into the intake and there was no shutting it down.

Thats what I figure...in the tractor's "mind" nothing was wrong....perhaps a tilt switch should be on all tractors to kill the engine before it gets over more than say 45deg...if the engine is already stopped the oil running out the breather into the intake wouldn't be a problem other than making a mess..or possibly hydraulic lock when uprighted and it runs into the cylinders via any open intake valves.

 

[Baby Grand]

Steve you are a lucky guy.

The only suggestion I might add is to try to redirect the exhaust to the intake with a tarp, hose, or whatever is handy, even if it's just blowing in the right direction. It's a big supply of CO2 sans O2.

Brad

I think that's the most practical shut off solution - plumb a Y valve into the exhaust pipe and run the new leg back to the air intake plumbing; after the filter. Should starve the engine of oxygen very quickly. Should be relatively painless to make something like this.

-Jim

 

[DiezNutz]

Is there any way to splice a check/ball valve into the crankcase vent tube to at least prohibit enough oil from making its way into the air intake to support continue running?

Somebody didn't read before posting.

However, you're not the only one...

 

[dodge man]

I think the point of the saftey switches is that is would have killed it on the way over as his butt came out of the seat, before it started to run on oil, but since he wasn't using the HST at that exact second, there was reason for it to kill the egine.

 

[Rob-D]

First of all, take a step back and think about the safety switches. What do they really do ? IF any of those switches is activated, it sends a current to where? The fuel soleniod! All it does is activates the plunger to fuel plunger to cut off the fuel to the engine. If the engine finds another source of fuel- all the saftey switches in the world will not shut off the engine.

I agree we need another safety switch. We will need one for a runaway engine kill. Perhaps if we have a switch that senses a rolloverr, lets say 90 and greater degrees off axis, it would kill the air source.

At this point of time, I would say you will need to consult your owners manual to see how to check your saftey switches on your tractor to make sure they all work. the pto, hst, seat ,etc safety switches should all be working.

My thinking is that the safety switch will shut off the engine before it gets to the point where it draws oil from the crankcase, so you never get to the point where you're in that position. Now you're at 45 degrees, off goes the engine.

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

I think the point of the saftey switches is that is would have killed it on the way over as his butt came out of the seat, before it started to run on oil, but since he wasn't using the HST at that exact second, there was reason for it to kill the egine.

Sorry, didn't see your post, we're on the same boat.

Rob

 

[SteveCornell]

I think that's the most practical shut off solution - plumb a Y valve into the exhaust pipe and run the new leg back to the air intake plumbing; after the filter. Should starve the engine of oxygen very quickly. Should be relatively painless to make something like this.

-Jim

Only problem there is that there was a lot of black unburned oil coming out of the exhaust so you would also be pumping oil back into the intake.

I appreciate all of the ideas and thoughts but there is already a proven system out there that has been in use for years, the emergency air kill is a simple butterfly valve that can be triggered in a number of ways, key off, tilt switch, over-speeding RPMs, or a simple manual kill, we don't need to "reinvent the wheel" , on my particular tractor I will need to reroute the crankcase vent but even if it's not the simple air kill will have the same effect as CO2, blocking the air intake with rags, exhaust gas, etc. the Air Kill WOULD have stopped the engine, yes it would have continued sucking in oil through the vent tube but it would not get enough air to continue running.

This air kill is required on all diesel engines that operate in hazardous environments, gas well locations, chemical plants, etc., I've seen them on everything from small water pumps to D9 dozers.

As I said I appreciate the ideas and if you want to rig up some kind of "rigged" CO2, fire extinguisher, exhaust gas re-router then that's fine but there is a already a "proven" system available.

4261 - Intake Air Shutoff Valves

http://www.chalwyn.co.uk/pdfs/CE217.pdf

http://fspowercontrol.com/download/Chalwyn Brochure.pdf

 

[radioman]

My thinking is that the safety switch will shut off the engine before it gets to the point where it draws oil from the crankcase, so you never get to the point where you're in that position. Now you're at 45 degrees, off goes the engine.

Rob

well- your thinking might make sense. But in the event of rollover, there is only one scenerio that the saftey switch will work. The operator must be pushing on the HST pedal inforward or reverse and while falling off the seat. What if the operator stopped before rolling over ? saftey switch on seat means squat. Try it. start up your tractor and don't be moving. get up from the seat. it will NOT shut off! if the pto was engaged then the kill will kick in when you stand up. On my bota, if you start it with seat in BH position, then engage the pto, it will still be running. some tractors do this so it will still engage pto for a wood chipper.

 

[bitseeker]

. . .I appreciate all of the ideas and thoughts but there is already a proven system out there that has been in use for years . . .

This air kill is required on all diesel engines that operate in hazardous environments . . .

Great thread. I'm learning lots.

Air-kill is interesting. One of the BP Gulf spill drilling rig crew said that he was awakened by the diesel engines overspeeding and shaking the rig like he had never felt before.

I wonder if lack of effective air-kill was another BP safety failure and if engine failure (5,000 HP each I think) contributed to the rig sinking.

 

[ccsial]

I found these instructions from one of the manufactures of air kills...

Any engine crankcase breather connections into
the intake system between the MVX valve and
engine, or any internal crankcase breather
arrangement venting directly into the engine
intake ports must be sealed and replaced by an
external breather system venting either to
atmosphere or to the intake system upstream of
the shut down valve. External breather system
kits for various engine types are available from
Chalwyn.

So it looks like the real culprit here is the crankcase vent plumbed into the intake.

For those with turbo chargers there is also the danger of a failure where the oil lube/cooling can leak and cause a run away. My Dodge truck manual cautions about this and suggests keeping a CO2 fire extinguisher for stopping. The air shut off would be even better to have. Keep us posted about that Steve.

I guess on the electronic injection engines this would not be an issue since the ignition key would kill the injection system.

 

[Chilly807]

If you're looking to gear up an air shutoff, think about the last time you tipped a Shop-Vac on it's side. The float ball to cut off suction before any water reaches the motor drops into place and cuts the air-flow. The same kind of setup would work on the tractor, and the size is about right considering the airflow through most Shop-Vacs.
It's also automatic, gravity controlled, so no switches or cables required. How it would be over a bumpy field I don't know..


How you'd plumb it in is another story, but I think it would do the trick.

Come to think of it, the Shop Vac might be a good turbo-charger if you can get the power to it...

Sean

 

[Dead Horse]

there is already a proven system out there that has been in use for years, the emergency air kill is a simple butterfly valve that can be triggered in a number of ways, key off, tilt switch, over-speeding RPMs, or a simple manual kill, we don't need to "reinvent the wheel" , on my particular tractor I will need to reroute the crankcase vent but even if it's not the simple air kill will have the same effect as CO2, blocking the air intake with rags, exhaust gas, etc. the Air Kill WOULD have stopped the engine, yes it would have continued sucking in oil through the vent tube but it would not get enough air to continue running.

This air kill is required on all diesel engines that operate in hazardous environments, gas well locations, chemical plants, etc., I've seen them on everything from small water pumps to D9 dozers.

As I said I appreciate the ideas and if you want to rig up some kind of "rigged" CO2, fire extinguisher, exhaust gas re-router then that's fine but there is a already a "proven" system available.

The Deep Water Horizon that blew up in the GOM had diesel generators that went into over speed from ingesting "natural gas" venting from the well head break and did not have fail safe on them..... when they blew, that ignited the rig fire, according to the guys wo made it off the rig.

 

[Chilly807]

The Deep Water Horizon that blew up in the GOM had diesel generators that went into over speed from ingesting "natural gas" venting from the well head break and did not have fail safe on them..... when they blew, that ignited the rig fire, according to the guys wo made it off the rig.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard that scenario. Most of our gen-sets (Navy) have an air flap system to prevent runaway on lube oil, but some of the bigger stuff (10,000 HP propulsion diesels) uses compressed air to blow fuel out of the fuel system for emergency shutdown. That wouldn't have prevented the over speed, as in the case of the BP oil rig. Something to keep in the back of my mind next time I'm working around one.

Sean

 

[_RaT_]

My Dad had a Volkswagen Rabbit Pickup that would do that. It would be going along fine and suddenly go full tilt with the key off no diesel to the engine. In doing so it would completely inundate the air filter compartment with oil. VW had a work around where they stopped the vacuum that was creating the problem via hoses.

I'm wondering if the OP could have stepped on the HST pedel and tried to stall it? I realize the tractor was on its side.

Curious OP, did you have the loader raised up.?

Your engine was running on its own oil and ran until it ran out of oil. See Diesel engine runaway for a full explication.

Aaron Z

 

[funwithahoe]

My Dad had a Volkswagen Rabbit Pickup that would do that. It would be going along fine and suddenly go full tilt with the key off no diesel to the engine. In doing so it would completely inundate the air filter compartment with oil. VW had a work around where they stopped the vacuum that was creating the problem via hoses.

I'm wondering if the OP could have stepped on the HST pedel and tried to stall it? I realize the tractor was on its side.

Curious OP, did you have the loader raised up.?

I'll save the OP on this one - HST won't because stall there is a pressure relief valve that saves the hydrostat from destroying itself.

BTW, I think this thread is so popular because the title sounds like the punch line to a raunchy joke.

 

[_RaT_]

I've stalled my old L3830 plenty of times with the HST pedal. It simply loads the motor until the motor cannot continue to rotate. I guess thats why they made the "stall guard" on the L3940 which I now have. I do not use stall guard because I have become so tuned in with HST thats its just not an issue. I will have to go out and try stalling it, I know it will do it. I also know the HST will not destroy itself. Its far more rugged than that.

I'll save the OP on this one - HST won't because stall there is a pressure relief valve that saves the hydrostat from destroying itself.

BTW, I think this thread is so popular because the title sounds like the punch line to a raunchy joke.

 

[638]

Think about it. With one wheel in the air, you are not going to stall an engine, reguardless of what kind of transmission you have.

 

[SteveCornell]

Tried that... HST will not operate when it's on it's side (no oil to the pump pickup tube)

The loader was on the ground.

 

[Rob-D]

I'm thinking that tractors flip, not a lot, but enough to have seen this problem before. Is the set up Kubota has creating an environment for this to happen? Will another diesel tractor do the same thing in this situation?

This is the first time I've seen this on TBN. Has anyone else gone through it?

Rob

 

[funwithahoe]

I'm thinking that tractors flip, not a lot, but enough to have seen this problem before. Is the set up Kubota has creating an environment for this to happen? Will another diesel tractor do the same thing in this situation?

This is the first time I've seen this on TBN. Has anyone else gone through it?

Rob

Some people are so passionate on this thread I am afraid we might see an epidemic of people tipping over their tractors just to show the OP how THEY would have got it to turn off.:laughing: