another 4300 design flaw!

[defed]

Too many of you men are bashing defed...

don't worry Roy, i can take it

He bought a tractor he's not used to and maybe being a bit cautious.

apparently not cautious enough!

Plus, being a used 4300, it's likely got a few flaws here and there. I saw the pictures of it (on Machinefinder.com) before he bought it. Decent tractor, but not a jewel. However, the 4300 and such, although fine tractors (one of Deere's best efforts, IMHO), it's not a farm tractor. My guess is the market was local landscapers, rental companies and "gentlemen farmers" with little "in the woods" work expected. Hence, the exposed turn signals and other such things. One long time criticism was the vunerable underside (I read about this when those tractors were current product) which lead to a number of ripped hydraulic hoses, wiring and eventually led to the underamor kit to protect the "belly of the beast".

i just expect any tractor to be able to handle simple tasks, like driving on dirt. i wasn't doing anything that a landscaper wouldn't do. sure, if i was slamming the thing around on a pile of rocks things would get tore up. and imagine the things ppl do who rent equipment!

 

[defed]

on a side note, the tech manual just says 'replace the cap'...it doesn't tell how it should be done.

the cap has a rubber lip, extending beyond the OD of the cap. does anyone know if you drive the cap in until the lip just hits the shoulder of the housing, or do you drive it in until the lip folds back up into the ID of the housing? i can see it going either way, and not sure if it matters. the factory cap looks different, so i can't compare.

 

[RickB]

on a side note, the tech manual just says 'replace the cap'...it doesn't tell how it should be done.

the cap has a rubber lip, extending beyond the OD of the cap. does anyone know if you drive the cap in until the lip just hits the shoulder of the housing, or do you drive it in until the lip folds back up into the ID of the housing? i can see it going either way, and not sure if it matters. the factory cap looks different, so i can't compare.

Drive the cap in until the flange contacts the 'shoulder' of the swivel housing.

 

[beenthere]

defed
I understand where that cap is located now.

I will be cautious, as I am in the process now of spreading 20 dump-truck loads of fill-dirt. Some rocks and gravel, and sod (and an old culvert or two) along with the dirt. I'll be thanking you to be aware of where those final drives are when bulldozing the dirt with the FEL.
Appreciate the heads-up.

 

[defed]

i took this picture from Dfkrug's 4300 rebuild thread...

his cap is all steel. my new cap looks similar, but the lip around the outside is rubber. his cap, you can tap up until it hits the steel flange, and it won't move unless it's crushed by something. if i tap mine in until the rubber hits, there is nothing to hold it from going in further, with minimal pressure.

the cap on the other side looks like his steel one...so it does look like they made a change on the replacement parts that is worse than the original. i will look into if they ever offered the 'all steel' caps later.

 

[defed]

defed
I understand where that cap is located now.

I will be cautious, as I am in the process now of spreading 20 dump-truck loads of fill-dirt. Some rocks and gravel, and sod (and an old culvert or two) along with the dirt. I'll be thanking you to be aware of where those final drives are when bulldozing the dirt with the FEL.
Appreciate the heads-up.

no problem Beenthere....besides being a rant, i wanted to post what happened to me so others could be aware. if you take a look under yours, see if the 'bump out' is squared off like the one in the picture i posted, or if it is tapered. the new ones are tapered, and a rubber lip. the factory ones appear to be all steel and square on the bump. if yours are the all steel type, they will be much harder to do what i did to my replacement cap.

 

[defed]

Drive the cap in until the flange contacts the 'shoulder' of the swivel housing.

thanks, after seeing what an all steel original looks like, i do believe that it correct. don't know why they went from a steel lip to rubber.

 

[JD755]

thanks, after seeing what an all steel original looks like, i do believe that it correct. don't know why they went from a steel lip to rubber.

And then before all that, this is what they did on the 55 series tractors. Hard to see any way to damage that.

 

[defed]

EXACTLY my point JD755...why take a nice solid object and replace it w/ a hole facing downward into harms way! maybe it was done for easier service, as it was pretty easy to remove the spindle to get to the knuckle seal.

i do feel better knowing that the cap design was changed and that the original design w/ all steel cap wasn't AS prone to what happened to me....but then i feel worse knowing that the new cap is probably all deere offers.

 

[defed]

Beenthere, i have the new style cap here in the house if you would like to see a picture of it for comparison to what you have on yours.

 

[beenthere]

I would like to see the picture.
I did check mine and both are intact (no oil leaking ). Also could see where they are in a position to be quite vulnerable if catching a rock just right and rolling over caught underneath. OR in hard dirt compressed under the same place.

 

[defed]

you can see the rubber lip around the outside (some is torn from when i removed it), and the bump is tapered, instead of coming out square.

it also says 'spicer' on it, i can't see any wording on the factory original.

 

[dklistul]

... drained the rest of the oil, and walked out to look for something...when i come back, oil all over the floor. my drain pain had a crack 1/2 down! ...

I hate it when that happens.

Several years ago, I decided to change the hydraulic/transmission/rear axle oil on an old Ford 2N I used to have. Simple, right? So I put a bucket (an empty 40 pound cat-litter bucket) under the drain, pulled the plug and turned away for a moment. When I looked back, the old oil (that thick, nasty smelling 90W stuff) was flooding my entire garage floor. It looked like something from a 1950s science fiction movie. THE OIL SLICK THAT ATE DONUT CENTER. (Probably produced by Irwin Allen. In black and white, no less.)

Crap. (Not my exact word, incidentally, but related.)

The bucket had lots of holes in its bottom. Lots and lots of holes, each about 3/8" in diameter, it turned out.

Quick! Grab another bucket! We had quite a few so I ran across the garage, grabbed another and swapped it out.

About now is when my wife heard the bad words and stuck her head out to see what was up.

Wouldn't you know it, the second bucket had holes in it, too!

And Lisa, watching this whole thing by now, stands there laughing at me.

Turns out, from the 10 or more buckets stacked neatly in the garage from which I could choose, the two I grabbed first were the ones my wife had used as temporary pots for her plants, and we had (long prior to this fateful day) drilled a lot of drian holes in those buckets.

Now, what are the odds of grabbing those 2 buckets, in succession?", I ask. I don't know.

But Lisa still teases me about.

Gads, what a mess!

Now back to the OP. Sure sounds like it needs some sort of armor under that plug. Doesn't seem like driving over a pile of dirt should cause you to potentially lose all your front axle oil.

 

[AKfish]

you can see the rubber lip around the outside (some is torn from when i removed it), and the bump is tapered, instead of coming out square.

it also says 'spicer' on it, i can't see any wording on the factory original.

So, the metal lip on the new seal DOES NOT contact or seat on the inside lip of the final drive housing? But, the old metal seal DOES seat on the inside lip when installed! Correct?

That doesn't sound right... I can imagine the engineers adding a neopreme seal to reduce the likelihood that the metal cap will "seep". However, I CANNOT imagine that they would eliminate the metal base seating against the drive housing lip. They might reduce the size of the contact surface to allow for expansion room with the seal - but no metal to metal base - that's not good design work!

Do you have a big ol' socket that would fit around the circumference of the seal to use as a seal driver. I've got some great big ol' sockets that I used on the front axle nuts on an old IH 4x4 1200 series truck. Big honkin' things - 3/4" drive must be 4" diameter!

I wonder if you're installing the cap - all cattywompus..? And that's why it's leaking?

Have you picked the local JD mechanics brains on this problem? Be interesting to get their take on the solution.

AKfish

 

[defed]

So, the metal lip on the new seal DOES NOT contact or seat on the inside lip of the final drive housing? But, the old metal seal DOES seat on the inside lip when installed! Correct?

That doesn't sound right... I can imagine the engineers adding a neopreme seal to reduce the likelihood that the metal cap will "seep". However, I CANNOT imagine that they would eliminate the metal base seating against the drive housing lip. They might reduce the size of the contact surface to allow for expansion room with the seal - but no metal to metal base - that's not good design work!

Do you have a big ol' socket that would fit around the circumference of the seal to use as a seal driver. I've got some great big ol' sockets that I used on the front axle nuts on an old IH 4x4 1200 series truck. Big honkin' things - 3/4" drive must be 4" diameter!

I wonder if you're installing the cap - all cattywompus..? And that's why it's leaking?

Have you picked the local JD mechanics brains on this problem? Be interesting to get their take on the solution.

AKfish

it is true. the old one is an all metal lip, the new one has NO metal in the lip, purely rubber. part of the rubber lip is torn off from when i removed it and i can see the metal part is cylindrical...meaning all the metal goes inside the housing w/ just the rubber on the outside. i commented to the parts guy and he was like, yea, that's not going to stop it from moving.

i didn't talk to the service guy because i didn't know at that time that the original was all metal. but i did want to ask them if i could get the all metal ones from somewhere.

the one that got pushed in was installed nicely, and didn't leak until it got knocked around. the new one, i did have a problem getting in there straight, it is a bit off, but w/ the sealant, it is currently sealed. as long as it is still good when the axle builds pressure, i'll go w/ it until it gets knocked out again!

 

[arrabil]

Bring the original one to a driveshaft shop. I bet they can order the all metal one from a Spicer supplier. Can probably even look it up in their books.

 

[defed]

unfortunately, the one i removed was already a replacement. the original is on the other side and still in there. but i can get the measurements from the replacement and see if i can find an all steel one, if deere can not.

if you do front axle work, don't destroy your original caps!

 

[beenthere]

I'm probably the only one who is confused.
If I have it straight,

The original one is steel, and was removed when front axle work was done.
The replacement at that time was rubber and pushed in when doing work in dirt.
Now the new one (not yet installed) is pictured.

Now, seems like the discussion includes a fourth one, and I don't know "who is on first"

Right, "who" is on second, and "I don't know" is on third

 

[defed]

I'm probably the only one who is confused.
If I have it straight,

The original one is steel, and was removed when front axle work was done.
The replacement at that time was rubber and pushed in when doing work in dirt.
Now the new one (not yet installed) is pictured.

Now, seems like the discussion includes a fourth one, and I don't know "who is on first"

i guess part of the confusion is my fault. i didn't know about the all metal cap until i talked to Dfkrug about his caps. the one that got pushed in was a rubber lip....which i THOUGHT was original equipment...since that is what they sell as replacements. so, i guess that side had already been worked on before i bought it, and the cap replaced. the other side, which i have never opened, seems to still have its original cap.

the one picture i showed was of Dfkrug's all metal cap. the post w/ 2 pics, is the old rubber lip that i removed...one pic of each side. the new rubber lip is never pictured and installed.


so, i removed a rubber lip and replaced w/ a rubber lip.

 

[arrabil]

i can get the measurements from the replacement and see if i can find an all steel one

Bring the rubber one to a driveshaft shop and tell them you want the original metal style. I have never had any trouble getting old Spicer parts at the big-rig driveshaft shop in town. Even Spicer parts they don't deal with on a regular basis.