Dumb question: Why do you need Ballast?

[Ken45101]

A backhoe is particularly good as ballast, since you can extend the hoe to the rear to increase the distance of the center of mass behind the rear wheels, and you can swing it to the uphill side on a side hill situation.

I'm not sure about that. A backhoe has a lot of weigh up high (the boom when it's in a traveling position). Now maybe it's just because my B21 is small and somewhat narrow, but that thing feels like it has a lot less stability than my M5040. Yeah, I know it's apples and oranges, but I've always been wary that the backhoe has too much weight up high.

Yes, I have swung the boom over a few times when I'm feeling nervous, but the biggest risk is when you unexpectedly hit a bump or hole.

Ken

 

[bstrom]

here's why you need ballast..........

 

[rekees4300]

newdeal - I've had a JD4300 with FEL for 10 years. From experience I can tell you that safety should be upper most in your mind when using a FEL. They are VERY dangerous if the recommendations in your owners manual aren't followed. Especially the rear weight recommendations.

Experience 1: As a newbie who was ignorant re the danger, I drove down the backside of my pond dam with an empty FEL, the rear had no ballast or anything else, and the tractor was in 2WD. It was in the morning with dew on the grass. I was about 1/2 way down the dam when all of a sudden the tractor just took off. Idiot me had no idea what was happening. I thought maybe the axis or something had broken. I slammed on the brakes but instead of stopping the tractor it just started to swerve side to side as it gained speed. By the time I reached the bottom of the dam the tractor was doing it's own thing and I was just along for the ride trying to steer it straight. Fortunately at the bottom of the dam was an open level field in which I was finally able to stop. The tractor came very close to rolling over.

Experience 2: A few years later I thought I had the FEL mastered. I was dumping some stones on the inside of the pond dam as erosion control. I had added wheel weights and a ballast box with 4WD engaged. Everything was going fine when (with a full load of stone in the FEL) one of the tractor's front wheels went slightly over the level dam top onto the steep inner dam. Three seconds and several OH S**Ts later the tractor was in the pond! The weight of the loaded FEL plus gravity leverage was enough to pull the tractor down the inside of the dam. Lucky for me that the tractor got stuck in the mud before it was completely submerged or I wouldn't be writing this reply today. Had to call a wrecker to pull the tractor out of the pond.


Lessons learned: Before using a FEL follow the rear weight recommendations in the owners manual, always engage 4WD (using a FEL on a 2WD tractor = RIP), use extreme caution around steep terrain, keep the bucket as low as possible and be ready to ground it if tractor stability is lost, increase PSI in front wheels to prevent blowouts, use a ROPS and a seatbelt. Remember, when something goes wrong it will probably happen so fast you will not have time to think logically or react properly. That's why it's so very important to stay alert and anticipate what might happen before using a FEL in various situations.

 

[poldies4]

I'm new to the tractor thing too. My dealer insists that loaded tires are a fine ballast in and of themselves. Most feedback outside of him has been to add additional ballast. I have used the loader with loaded tires and no additional ballast for about three weeks without any incident, but I am not pushing it, small loads, bucket low. When the bucket is full of wet sand, the rear is noticably lighter, but never scary. Generally my use would probably be considered light duty. The ground on my property is fairly flat, low slow slopes, nothing steep. I asked the dealer again and got the feeling I was offending him, and his advice by even asking for a price on a ballast box. His response was I've never sent a tractor out of here with both loaded tires and a ballast box, it's not necessary. Any advice? I'd rather have the ballast box based on rear projection as I spend most of my tractor time in the woods...

 

[California]

Most everything has been mentioned but here's one scenario for the new owner to think about: with little or no ballast in back if you try to lift too much and the rear tires lift, they don't both come off the ground equally. Rather, while only one rear tire may lift, the front axle will pivot clear to its limit to one side or the other, pulled that way by the not-perfectly-centered load in the bucket. This can easily be the first stage of a rollover if the bucket is high enough, the downhill side just fell in a gopher hole, etc. Visualize that, and you will always wear your seatbelt when there is something in the bucket.

 

[rekees4300]

poldies4 - You need to find out how much weight is needed for your FEL/tractor combination. That information should be in the owners manual for your tractor and/or the FEL or your dealer should know. Weight is weight. I don't think it really makes much difference if the weight is located in loaded tires or a ballast box or another attachment so long as the weight is adequate to offset the lift capacity of the FEL. As I recall my ballast box was only around $100 bucks new from the dealer. I don't have loaded tires but do have wheels weights.

 

[rdsaustintx]

That experiment is not in the range of interest.
IOW You won't get enough weight far enough back on a tractor to get the front wheels significantly unloaded when the FEL is at/near to overload.

Of course you won't unload it. You wouldn't want that much ballast. You do reduce it with overhanging ballast though.

Forget the toy car (although it ain't a bad example at all). Draw a free-body diagram and take moments about the rear tire. With the ballast aft of the axle it obviously reduces the front axle reaction. Now do the same diagram with wheel ballast. No difference in front axle reaction.

For example, running 500# 3' behind the axle is 1500 ft-lb. I'm guessing a BX wheelbase is about 4.5'. The reaction at the rear increases by 833#. The reaction at the front is reduced by 333#. On these teeny wheels, I'll take it.

If you run 500# on your wheels, it increases the rear reaction by 500#. Period.

Nobody's bad-mouthing wheel ballast, just reciting simple physics. Wheel ballast has advantages as well.

(puts away toy calculator)

 

[CurlyDave]

A backhoe has a lot of weigh up high (the boom when it's in a traveling position).

Unless there is something preventing it, I extend the hoe (not just swing it) to the uphill side, and travel slowly when sidehill stability is required. This both lowers the center of gravity and increases the CG shift to the uphill side.

When going into a particularly challenging spot, I have even been known to pick up the largest rock I can find which will fit into the bucket.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

rekees4300 post needs to be burned into the brain of any FEL user.

From my limited experience changing the position of a BH is not going to happen unless it is down before you get in trouble. I knowing dropped the back wheel off in a very small "dip" and the slack in the hoe whipped me just a little. If the hole had been a foot+ deep I think the backhoe would have been a negative.

Steer is about all you can do. I learned that quickly nosing down a 45 degree pond bank in low MultiPower when my FIL stilled owned our tractor. I could just let it run out so I just keep the nose pointing down and was OK except for my pants.

Our 12,500 pound JD 310B only has air in the tires and speed is not tempting off road. I am guessing that the loader weights as much as the hoe.

No traction with a tractor can spell death fast. Two summers ago my BIL rolled his 600 picking up old cross ties of the railroad track. We do not know what happen but i assume he was leaning and the low wheel hit a hole. This summer another guy drown when he flipped his track hoe off a pond level and could not get out. There was the picture the other day of the log in the tractor's seat that was about as close to death one can come and cheat death.

There are some tasks we should just pay a few hundred dollars and get a larger machine with operator to do it for us.

 

[poldies4]

rekees 4300, I have gone through the manual top to bottom, and see that they "recomend" either rear ballast, OR loaded tires. They do not specify or differentiate between the two. At least not that I can tell. Loader is a LA243, tractor is a BX. Any advice would be appreciated.

By the way, can you get me a ballast box? My dealer quoted 250 new. Guess he doesn't want to sell me one?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[TripleR]

I don't like to bad mouth anyone and certainly try not to, but I believe anyone that tells you that filled tires are enough weight to allow you to safely and properly use your FEL on any BX is simply wrong.

I believe anything on the 3-point is going to increase the safety and utility of a FEL on just about any tractor and certainly on the BX.

 

[milkman]

rds, and tripleR, you're excluded from my previous post. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Logic just eludes some people.:confused2:

 

[Baby Grand]

One of the benefits of loading the 3ph when working the FEL hard is the fact that it takes some of the weight off of the front axle. This is particularly helpful when your skinny front tires are rolling over soft soil.

Had I done this, it would have helped prevent my front from sinking into the muck so deep I had to dump the FEL load & use the bucket to back it out. With the wife watching. Doh.

Heavy FEL work is safer & more productive with adequate ballast aft of the rear axle.

-Jim

 

[Bedlam]

I agree filled tires and even wheel weights aren't enough for me I run both and still need ballast.The backhoe certainly is a great weight but can be hard to maneuver in small areas. I have two weight boxed one is a 55 gallon cement one and only use that when I'm moving piles of dirt. With that on I don't need to even use 4 WHL drive.
I put on what I need to handle the job..Just patched a flat rear and cant see how anyone could ever run a tractor without tires filled and or wheel weights..

 

[rdsaustintx]

I have gone through the manual top to bottom, and see that they "recomend" either rear ballast, OR loaded tires. They do not specify or differentiate between the two. At least not that I can tell. Loader is a LA243, tractor is a BX.

Same here. Really didn't give the subject much thought the first year of ownership, backhoe or BB always on. But then I started mowing with just the FEL on and things got, er, um, more exciting. Other than the (terrifying) rear end lift, the front tires looked like they were gonna throw a bead with a loaded bucket. I read a bit here, then put all the big disks from two exercise weight sets on my 3ph drawbar. It's ghetto, but man, what a difference. Like driving on velcro.

I have learned 100x more on this board than from my manuals. TBN truly rocks. :cool2:

 

[rdsaustintx]

rds, and tripleR, you're excluded from my previous post. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks Milkman! The way it fell into the thread the intent wasn't clear. I always respect (and enjoy) your opinions here.

 

[EE_Bota]

When I first read on TBN that a ballast takes weight off the front wheels, I thought you guys were all wet. Then I employed thinking that a physics professor told me one time:

In times of doubt where it is a close call, take the objects involved and make them extremely large, extremely small, extremely heavy, extremely light, extremely fast, and extremely slow, and you will be surprised how quickly the truth will be revealed.

The toy car example given earlier is an excellent example of this type of thought experiment.

My bush hog is my heaviest ballast, but just last week, I moved the heaviest loads I ever attempted with my BX. I knew I would prefer to use the loader, but that the 3pt hitch is the stronger and safer lifting means. So, I put on my carry-all, backed into a long pallet, and then I stacked cement blocks on the pallet near the very back edge. I tied the blocks on tight, and adjusted the chains for very little 3ph swing. That way, I had adequate ballast for the loader, but an easy and quick means to switch to using the carry all.

The ROPS was on and tight, the seat belt was on and tight, my hard hat was on and tight. All worked really well.

 

[bstrom]

rekees 4300, I have gone through the manual top to bottom, and see that they "recomend" either rear ballast, OR loaded tires. They do not specify or differentiate between the two. At least not that I can tell. Loader is a LA243, tractor is a BX. Any advice would be appreciated.

By the way, can you get me a ballast box? My dealer quoted 250 new. Guess he doesn't want to sell me one?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You could have someone fabricate one. My friend is making one for his small Deere right now. I think he's on the second month of it sitting on his workbench. If he had spent the 250.00 or whatever on the Deere box he might not have his front axle leak now (just sayin', no proof) and definitely would not have gotten stuck out in his field and had to have a truck pull him out. He has unloaded turfs and no implements yet, just a loader. Someday he will finish that box. He got the steel for free at least, and it's probably 100.00 worth of steel.

 

[poldies4]

Got it, ballast for sure, is a ballast box the shortest projection? I appreciate the idea that an implement does the same thing and dual use similar cost, however my woods are pretty tight. Thanks for the info I'll keep learning and asking questions.

 

[rekees4300]

rekees 4300, I have gone through the manual top to bottom, and see that they "recomend" either rear ballast, OR loaded tires. They do not specify or differentiate between the two. At least not that I can tell. Loader is a LA243, tractor is a BX. Any advice would be appreciated.

By the way, can you get me a ballast box? My dealer quoted 250 new. Guess he doesn't want to sell me one?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Perhaps your manual is trying to say at least have one or the other but if you read between the lines it isn't excluding the use of both? So my advice is to get both.

I have a John Deere 4300 (weight 3000 lbs.) so comparing my tractor to yours may be like comparing apples to oranges. Nevertheless the following information was found in my owners manual for the FEL (lift capacity 1200 lbs.). Perhaps you can extrapolate to your tractor?

---------------------------------------------------------
CAUTION: To help prevent the possibility of personal injury or death caused by tractor/loader roll over, DO NOT operate tractor/loader unless it is equipped with proper ballast.

Rear Tires without liquid ballast: Loader use not approved.
Rear Tires with liquid ballast: Minimum 3-point hitch ballast 1320 lbs.
Rear Tires with liquid ballast and 6 wheel weights: Minimum 3-point hitch ballast 1210 lbs.
---------------------------------------------------------

Note that loaded tires would probably weight in the 600-1000 lbs. range. So the total ballast weight is roughly in the 1900-2300 lbs range.


The best feature of a ballast box is that it doesn't use much room behind the tractor so in a woods setting where space is at a premium it would work just fine. Suggest checking on craigslist for a used ballast box. You'd be amazed at the stuff you can find there. craigslist classifieds: jobs, housing, personals, for sale, services, community, events, forums