Not to start an argument..............

[bp fick]

Was 250,000 a typo? That would be more than total US sales for all brands added together.

Buck

Bloomberg Financial states Kubota's tractor sales to be 102,000 for US. Yeah, something is wrong with all these stats, me thinks. I think that 250K is likely world wide.

The point is well taken however, the CNH and AGCO are the larger folks world wide, according to most reports. It is not likely these stats are really understandable. Not to most of us anyhow.

 

[DavesTractor]

You will find the 80,000 (or so) odd tractors in Mahindras financial stock reports for their own production, the other half as you said is just stickers on the hood. As for Kubota, its around 250,000/yr for just the US, which is about 1/3 of their total business.

I'd also say the same 'ripple in the pond' remark to Kubota as well. They are a much, much smaller company than Agco, Deere or CNH.

Then Kubota has about 200% market share in the USA. :laughing:

I'll try to get the data for 2009 from AEM, since that will be independent info, but for example in Feb 2010 total tractor sales across all reporting brands for under 100 HP was 5,990 units. Since February isn't a stellar month, it wouldn't be fair to just multiply that by 12, but if you did you would get 72k units a year total. I'd think the total yearly market in the USA is probably closer to 100K-130K units. Makes it tough to sale 250K into that market. And 750K units a year worldwide??? Remember, we are talking tractors, not including box scrapers, coffee mugs, lawn mowers, or whatever.

As for your 80K number for Mahindra, that is wrong. It may have been from one plant, or perhaps a half-year of data. Mahindra built and shipped 159,932 units last year, additionally another 11K units were built by others, such as Mitsu and then decaled as Mahindra. Mahindra employs, across its product lines, 100,000 people and is a 6.3 billion dollar company. Certainly not John Deere, they are likely triple that dollar amount (just guessing, could be way off). Nor is Mahindra going to overtake Kubota soon in the USA, but we still like the idea of the "Big 4". This info from notes I took at our recent Mahindra national dealer meeting, so that is the source.

So Messick, I'll acknowledge that Kubota has a tremendous market share, not 200% of course, but whatever percentage they do have across the USA is substantial. They build a good product, they have good dealers for the most part, do a good job marketing, they seem to often come out with the right product at the right time. Basically, a well run company with good stuff. No disclaimer, just kudos to Kubota.

So don't let Mahindra worry you. You often state you have no dog in this fight, you have no competition from Mahindra in your area, etc. So I guess you have nothing to be concerned about. Mahindra will take it's "pitance" and just struggle along...

 

[Spencer C]

Then Kubota has about 200% market share in the USA. :laughing:

I'll try to get the data for 2009 from AEM, since that will be independent info, but for example in Feb 2010 total tractor sales across all reporting brands for under 100 HP was 5,990 units. Since February isn't a stellar month, it wouldn't be fair to just multiply that by 12, but if you did you would get 72k units a year total. I'd think the total yearly market in the USA is probably closer to 100K-130K units. Makes it tough to sale 250K into that market. And 750K units a year worldwide??? Remember, we are talking tractors, not including box scrapers, coffee mugs, lawn mowers, or whatever.

As for your 80K number for Mahindra, that is wrong. It may have been from one plant, or perhaps a half-year of data. Mahindra built and shipped 159,932 units last year, additionally another 11K units were built by others, such as Mitsu and then decaled as Mahindra. Mahindra employs, across its product lines, 100,000 people and is a 6.3 billion dollar company. Certainly not John Deere, they are likely triple that dollar amount (just guessing, could be way off). Nor is Mahindra going to overtake Kubota soon in the USA, but we still like the idea of the "Big 4". This info from notes I took at our recent Mahindra national dealer meeting, so that is the source.

So Messick, I'll acknowledge that Kubota has a tremendous market share, not 200% of course, but whatever percentage they do have across the USA is substantial. They build a good product, they have good dealers for the most part, do a good job marketing, they seem to often come out with the right product at the right time. Basically, a well run company with good stuff. No disclaimer, just kudos to Kubota.

So don't let Mahindra worry you. You often state you have no dog in this fight, you have no competition from Mahindra in your area, etc. So I guess you have nothing to be concerned about. Mahindra will take it's "pitance" and just struggle along...

AEM doesn't account for utility vehicles or turf products, which Kubota sells quite a bit of.

 

[TripleR]

The biggest problem for Mahindra in my area seems to be that the only dealers I have seen are obviously under capitalized and look like they might fold any day and I have only seen a couple of dealers. I have never even met anyone who owns one.

Kubota, JD etc. seem to have higher standards as we had no Kubota dealer for a couple of years after one folded due to poor management. Kubota finally allowed a dealer to set up that had an established business and reputation elsewhere.

Of course I am old enough to remember when Kubota was considered to be an "off brand" and even now they aren't that common as JD is the tractor of choice. I hope Mahindra and others do well as the competition will be good for everyone.

 

[buck12]

The biggest problem for Mahindra in my area seems to be that the only dealers I have seen are obviously under capitalized and look like they might fold any day and I have only seen a couple of dealers. I have never even met anyone who owns one.

Kubota, JD etc. seem to have higher standards as we had no Kubota dealer for a couple of years after one folded due to poor management. Kubota finally allowed a dealer to set up that had an established business and reputation elsewhere.

Of course I am old enough to remember when Kubota was considered to be an "off brand" and even now they aren't that common as JD is the tractor of choice. I hope Mahindra and others do well as the competition will be good for everyone.

I guess Kubota has lower standards in MS because the Kubota dealer closest to me added Mahindra to its lineup a couple of years ago. In this area there are a couple of Mahindra dealers and the under 60 hp units are popular.

 

[TripleR]

I guess Kubota has lower standards in MS because the Kubota dealer closest to me added Mahindra to its lineup a couple of years ago. In this area there are a couple of Mahindra dealers and the under 60 hp units are popular.

Yeah, probably should have said different rather than higher, no insult intended. I think it is often a regional thing as I have done a little traveling in the past and was surprised to see the difference in preferences and perceptions.

In my area, I now live in a sea of green with my neighbor and I being the only hold out, he has a NH. Our renters used to run all IH, but when Case took over they have transitioned to John Deere, but kept an old IH as a utility tractor.

Both Kubota stores to the north started as Ford dealerships, then NH and then took on Kubota. To the south the only dealer added Kubota to his Case dealership. We have no stand alone Kubota dealerships in my area.

About thirty miles to the north you will see some diversity as they don't do much row crop and the acreage is a lot smaller, so the bigger tractor aren't needed.

It will be interesting to see what the tractor market is in a few years.

My dad lived in Pearl, MS; interesting part of the country.

 

[Bob_In_MN]

As previously mentioned, the threads author asks us to forgo deciding factors such as dealer, but I can answer his question relative to my purchase. In 2003 after renting bobcats for several years I decided to purchase a CUT. The only tractor I had ever used was a 1972 JD lawn/garden tractor that my dad purchased (used) in 1975. I brought it with me to my house when I moved in 1998 and used it until 2003. I never looked at another brand--the fact that this thing worked for my dad from 75 to 98 and then for me from 98 to 03 was enough for me. I found the tractor I wanted at the dealer that I trusted, made the purchase and I never looked back. I don't know if I could have found a similar tractor for $4000 less, but even if I could have it really doesn't matter. The tractor is now 7 years old, paid off and has been trouble free.

By the way--my dad's old JD Lawn/Garden tractor sat from 03 to the summer of 09 (never prepped for storage--I simply parked it with the untreated gas in the tank). I decided to get rid of it and offered it to a friend. I dropped it off at 10:00 on a Saturday morning and he was mowing with it by 2:00 that afternoon

 

[stravis]

It really does come down to personal preference. Buy the "big name" for the lowest risk, highest resale. Buy the others for the best short-term value but with more risk related to reliability and support. For me, sometimes it's worth it; other times it's not.

Very well said, IMO.

Let me twist the OP's question a bit... If you were looking at equally equipped (not necessarily equal quality, just same HP, roughly same features, etc) machines from each manufacturer, both "big three" and gray market and you were told to choose one and it would be given to you for free, which brand would you choose?

I'd be willing to bet that very few of the current gray market brand owners would still choose the gray market brand. I'd also be willing to bet that very few of the big three owners would choose the gray market machines.

That's why I made the decision I made. I know cost is obviously a factor, but to me, it wasn't the deciding factor. I'd rather have something I trust that I consider to be of little risk, both short and long term. So far I've been happy with my decision. As another poster said, it's a lot like how I choose a new shotgun. I keep guns and tractors for a long long time and they get lots of use. I'd rather spend the money on something that fits, is trustworthy and that I'm not going to wish for more later.

Additionally, for me, many of the brands mentioned in this thread don't make tractors the size that I needed (my 5101 is 101HP) or if they do, it is at the highest that they make. I'd rather not buy the biggest a manufacturer makes as in my opinion, if they specialize in smaller machines, then I'd worry that their larger machines aren't designed to take that much power.
Another plus for my decision was that my machine was assembled (engine, cab and tractor) in Augusta, GA. I try to keep as much money as I can in my state and in my country.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Additionally, for me, many of the brands mentioned in this thread don't make tractors the size that I needed (my 5101 is 101HP) or if they do, it is at the highest that they make. I'd rather not buy the biggest a manufacturer makes as in my opinion, if they specialize in smaller machines, then I'd worry that their larger machines aren't designed to take that much power.
Another plus for my decision was that my machine was assembled (engine, cab and tractor) in Augusta, GA. I try to keep as much money as I can in my state and in my country.

So based on your logic, if you had the need, you would not buy a John Deere 9030 series machine with 530hp. After all that is the biggest tractor that they have in that line and is at the top end of the 425hp-530hp lineup. They are probably really only designed for the 425hp and they just put the bigger engines in, right?

I have no problem buying the biggest and best that a company has, if that is what I need. If anything I feel that the company put more of an effort into it to make it the best that it can be just because it is at the top end of there line. But then that is just me.

 

[patrick_g]

Another plus for my decision was that my machine was assembled (engine, cab and tractor) in Augusta, GA. I try to keep as much money as I can in my state and in my country.

Assembled in Georgia out of large sub assemblies totally manufactured and assembled overseas. It is cheaper to ship the tractors broken down into large sub assemblies and assemble the big chunks here than it is to ship them whole. Big deal, the fenders and wheels get bolted on in Georgia.

No rice burner foreign recycled tin cans for me, I bought AMERICAN when I got my one ton dually Dodge with Cumins turbo diesel engine. Right?

Or so I thought until I discovered the danged thing was assembled in Mexico, Yep, hecho in Mexico!!!

Pat

 

[jenkinsph]

I for one am very concerned about the U.S. loosing the industrial and manufacturing base. I would much prefer to see us keep the jobs and ability to manufacture here at home.

 

[stravis]

So based on your logic, if you had the need, you would not buy a John Deere 9030 series machine with 530hp. After all that is the biggest tractor that they have in that line and is at the top end of the 425hp-530hp lineup. They are probably really only designed for the 425hp and they just put the bigger engines in, right?

I have no problem buying the biggest and best that a company has, if that is what I need. If anything I feel that the company put more of an effort into it to make it the best that it can be just because it is at the top end of there line. But then that is just me.

I doubt I'll ever have need for a machine that size, but my thought still stands. I doubt JD put as much research into that 9030 as they do the smaller. I doubt it is made entirely of parts made uniquely to handle that HP. Do you? Does it really matter in this argument? Are you offended that I didn't want the largest tractor Kioti or Kubota made?

 

[stravis]

Assembled in Georgia out of large sub assemblies totally manufactured and assembled overseas. It is cheaper to ship the tractors broken down into large sub assemblies and assemble the big chunks here than it is to ship them whole. Big deal, the fenders and wheels get bolted on in Georgia.

No rice burner foreign recycled tin cans for me, I bought AMERICAN when I got my one ton dually Dodge with Cumins turbo diesel engine. Right?

Or so I thought until I discovered the danged thing was assembled in Mexico, Yep, hecho in Mexico!!!

Pat

I didn't say the rubber for the tires was harvested in Georgia. I didn't say the copper for the wires was mined just outside of Macon. I said it was put together in Augusta. I do all I can to buy American. I think I did pretty well with this machine.

By the way, my Chevy 2500 was made in Indiana I believe. (Just for clarification, the alternator was made in Mexico and the muffler in Canada, but the truck was put together in Indiana.)

 

[stravis]

Rather than try to find fault in my tractor choice, why not answer this part of the post:

If you were looking at equally equipped (not necessarily equal quality, just same HP, roughly same features, etc) machines from each manufacturer, both "big three" and gray market and you were told to choose one and it would be given to you for free, which brand would you choose?

I'd be willing to bet that very few of the current gray market brand owners would still choose the gray market brand. I'd also be willing to bet that very few of the big three owners would choose the gray market machines.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I doubt I'll ever have need for a machine that size, but my thought still stands. I doubt JD put as much research into that 9030 as they do the smaller. I doubt it is made entirely of parts made uniquely to handle that HP. Do you? Does it really matter in this argument? Are you offended that I didn't want the largest tractor Kioti or Kubota made?

Your joking, right? You actually think that they put more thought into a smaller machine than the big ones? Yes, I think that the larger hp tractors are designed to take the power that is put into them. And no I don't care what tractor you have, I just disagree with you that the largest tractor of any lineup is an inferior machine, as in not really made to take the hp that happens to be put in it. So aren't you uncomfortable having the largest hp model in the 5E series lineup? After all, it probably really isn't made to handle that 101hp. Maybe you should have stepped up to the 6D series, then you would not have any strength worries.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Rather than try to find fault in my tractor choice, why not answer this part of the post:

If you were looking at equally equipped (not necessarily equal quality, just same HP, roughly same features, etc) machines from each manufacturer, both "big three" and gray market and you were told to choose one and it would be given to you for free, which brand would you choose?

I'd be willing to bet that very few of the current gray market brand owners would still choose the gray market brand. I'd also be willing to bet that very few of the big three owners would choose the gray market machines.

First of all, I think that you use the term "grey market" wrong. I believe that grey market tractors are machines that have been built for and used in foreign countries and then imported to the United States as used machines.

As far as me having my grey market tractor, (Mahindra) I would be one of the few that would chose my Mahindra 7520 4x4 over ANY other tractor in the 70-80hp size. It overall out specs any other tractor in its class. It is extremely comfortable to operate, has the right ergonomics for me. After 5 years of use, it has been a very good machine for me. Does that answer your question? :confused2:

It is my thinking that if you had ten different brands, all the same hp range, all painted the same color, all for free with no warranty, that a lot of people would be surprised at which brands would be chosen first. While Kubota, John Deere, CNH, and AGCO all have very good machines, a lot of the others are as good or even better in some instances. This is what my findings have been after going to very large AG shows for several years.

 

[lilranch2001]

I have not had a tractor in 5 years, so when I decided last fall it was time for me to get a new toy, I spent 5 months researching, and looking at tractors. I looked at every brand that I could find a dealer in my area. I started with Orange, everyone has them around here, so I thought that is what I wanted, my first impression was a lot of chinsey parts (fenders are tinny, controls are wimpy) JD did have some nice features, but they did not have very high pump capacity. Plus our local dealership is somewhat of a arrogant A hole. I liked the MF but had a little misunderstanding with the dealer but overall, price was not all that different between the 4 brands I looked at.
I kept going back to the Bobcat, I feel good on it and so far I like the way it works when I get seat time.
Compared to my old 8N, I feel like I am running a Cadilac

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

AEM doesn't account for utility vehicles or turf products, which Kubota sells quite a bit of.

Yea, 250,000 is on all product lines, not just compacts. Thats what we've been told anyway.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Yea, 250,000 is on all product lines, not just compacts. Thats what we've been told anyway.

So Niel, what was the purpose of mentioning 250,000? We were-are talking utility tractors here, not lawn mowers and RTVs, or even excavators. :confused2:

If anyone wants to talk numbers, lets hear what gross profits are. I don't see were number of units made-sold and gross revenues do any good at all. What good is it if a company does 10 billion in business, but is in the negative AT ALL! I want to hear about profit and what percentage was made vs gross revenues.

 

[wedge40]

I've read some but not all. I'll be the first to admit that it seems to me that JD people are very proud of their Green paint. I've never owned a JD, and maybe if I did I'd be very proud of it also.
For me any major investment starts with sales. I walk into a place and they ask question and I ask questions. If they don't know the answer fine, find out and get back with me. Second is service. Once I've bought a product, service is what will bring me back to it again and again. Even if I have to pay more to get it. My tractor right now is a 43 year old Ford that I can still pretty much get parts for. Even though I'm having a hard time finding a replacement PS cylinder, but thats another story. Now I have two dealers that are about the same distance, and both are owned by the same company. But one always treats me like a real customer and the other hardly has time for me. Guess who gets my buisness?

For a first time tractor buyer, who knows little about tractors, well it's a toss up. I think some would choose on price alone and not consider the other aspects like service and parts availability. Hopefully they would know people who own potential brands and talk with them.

In the above paragraphs you can pretty much replace tractor with automobile and it would still pretty much fit.

Wedge
Oh and speaking of resale.. My 43 year old tractor is worth about $2K more than original retail price.