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/ Global Warming News #821  
One thing to keep in mind when discussing Cuba is that until about 15 years ago they received considerable support from the USSR which propped up their economy artificially. Even though the USSR couldn't afford it, it was a great propaganda device.

On the other hand, the US has done all it could to cripple the Cuban economy for decades. That would need to be taken into account also.

All in all, the economy of Cuba is probably so manipulated for so long that it may be difficult to draw valid conclusions.

The Canadians have been enjoying wonderful vacations in Cuba for some time now. Germans also. One of my German friends bowling team took a trip to Cuba about 14 years ago. He said it was nice enough but they drank their hotel out of beer :D seriously.

Do we get a fair and balanced view of Cuba here in the US? The only solid fact I have been able to discern is the Cuban community around Miami hates Castro. From pics, it looks like the place that time forgot since about 1950. How many prisons are there? How many prisoners? Anybody have in-depth or first hand knowledge of Cuba and would like to share?
Dave.

Needless to say I'm probably not going to be invited to do the eulogy at Fidel's funeral.(Although, I'm available if they can arrange something in the next day or so:)
Not to make too light of a terrible dictator, As I said in an earlier post, ask the guy that's been there. As you correctly point out, The Cuban community hates Castro.
And if one were to recall the Mariel boatlift, One doesn't recall too many of those that came here, opted to return(and if your going mention that a lot of them were criminals, yes, that's correct, but I haven't heard of a huge exodus out of Florida either by others who risked their lives to get out.
Not having any first hand knowledge, but I have heard stories about how the hard money tourists are not allowed to mix with average Cubans, Why would that be?
Could it be that like it was in Red China, every tourist got a government approved glimpse of the country."FREE" Health care or not.
 
/ Global Warming News #822  
FallbrockFarmer - my concern is that you introduced Cuba. I only showed evidence of a pretty good healthcare system considering how poor they are after you brought it up. How could you have done that in light of your last post? You rant and label any of the despicable and ruthless dictator's as socialist's. Then you conclude that those who feel differently than you must support them. Ridiculous and absurd conclusion. (plus faulty logic) I view them as tyrant's who were power hungry and had little concern for their people. (did they have universal health care?)
I doubt you have a more unbiased outlook than the WHO nor have you done the research. They aren't rating the best place to live nor was I, they are ranking efficiency and effectiveness of the healthcare system. Maybe you should write a letter to the UN and scold them for even looking at Cuba.
What you see as far, far to the left can be viewed is far, far to the right.

Anybody got a beer,
Loren
Was I ranting? Sorry, I thought I was trying to offer examples of why I think that our system of health care/governance was better than Cuba's.
Even if Cuba did have a better(does that mean cheaper?)health care system given the choice of living there or here, I let you guess as to my choice.
Again it was a stretch(admittedly) to compare NYC's directives regarding using a certain type of fat over another, with the diktat of the Cuban gov. But I think my point is still valid, what amount of freedom are you prepared to give up in order to gain a "free" benefit from the government?
If you say that don't think you will be giving something very important up, Sorry but I think your wrong
 
/ Global Warming News #823  
FF,

It's unlikely we'll agree on either (or is it any?) of the topics this thresd has hit on, but you might agee with me that it is likely that both government and insurance companies have managed to make it difficult to shop for the best rates.

So, anyway, since this thread seems to be a permanent feature now, I think I'll just head over to the booze thread. Even if we disagee on the relative merits of different adult beverages, I'd get the first round.

Chuck

If your buyin?...........
Barkeep I'll take a Chateau D Yquiem .
 
/ Global Warming News #824  
FallbrockFarmer-I'm satisfied to agree to disagree. Again I was not advocating at any point towards Cuba's political system. I feel you inserted that into the discussion of the characteristics of their healthcare. Why no comment on the hard working Americans who really did nothing wrong except to become very ill and lose everything. I could list 50 countries where that doesn't happen. Is this ok?

MikePA-your argument that a lower tax rate will increase government revenues is not a fact and is certainly debatable. Example -tax rate zero - government income from taxes zero. Remember that when income taxes are raised we are taxing what is left after all business expenses are deducted. In order to pay lots of money you have to have made a good profit. How much is a fair tax if you show a $30,000,000 income for the year? ($28,000,000 was an AIG bonus) The challenge is to find the right balance. Lots of energy spent in politics on that fight. If you check previous 8 years - lower taxes - spent more - big deficit -didn't seem to work. I believe that so far with this Administration that taxes have not been raised. (I'm somehow sure I'll be corrected)
Concerning "trickle down theory" - pretty well associated will Pres. Reagan's tax theory - let the rich get richer and it will flow to everyone. It is directly related to lowering taxes as he saw it. The results again are debatable as I'm sure you figured from my earlier post.

Loren
 
/ Global Warming News #825  
FallbrockFarmer-I'm satisfied to agree to disagree. Again I was not advocating at any point towards Cuba's political system. I feel you inserted that into the discussion of the characteristics of their healthcare. Why no comment on the hard working Americans who really did nothing wrong except to become very ill and lose everything. I could list 50 countries where that doesn't happen. Is this ok?

Okay, Comment on the hard working Americans who really did nothing wrong except to become very ill and lose everything.
This is the most generous country in the world, I have seen example after example of Americans giving and taking care of their fellow citizens, My basic philosophy is let the government do what it is mandated to do.
I am now old enough to remember when there was no Medicaid/Medicare and the bleak picture that you paint is inaccurate. Yes there was poverty, as was, always will be.
But I don't seem to remember people dying in the streets, by the hundreds. There was always a charity or religious
group that was willing to help.
Yes it's sad when people , thru no fault of their own run into hard times, but are you willing to change our basic system of government to achieve "universal coverage"
And as to the 50 countries "where this wouldn't happen"
I don't think you would want to live in any of them, would you?
 
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/ Global Warming News #826  
One more comment to the state owned health care and socialism in general- I heard it from Americans more time than I care to remember. Socialism/state owned health care etc.. did not succeed because it was not managed by the right people.
Let me tell you right here right now that the problem was never the people. It is the idea that's total FUBAR from the very beginning. If you take away the personal interest, nobody really cares where the system goes and the result is just that - FUBAR. But as I said, I heard it from many Americans - they very firm believers that it is possible. Very easy to play with theories from this very safe and comfortable country.

LOL, one example from real life. After the putsch in 1948 communists took away factories, mines, business etc from people who owned it for generations. After explaining this part of the history to one nice American fellow he asked me very logically: "Well, why did not they sue the communists to get their factory back?" That was the precise moment I decide to give up on my volunteer lectures on history and life in the East block in general.
 
/ Global Warming News #827  
LOL, one example from real life. After the putsch in 1948 communists took away factories, mines, business etc from people who owned it for generations. After explaining this part of the history to one nice American fellow he asked me very logically: "Well, why did not they sue the communists to get their factory back?" That was the precise moment I decide to give up on my volunteer lectures on history and life in the East block in general.

Sounds like he needed European History 101 as a prerequisite for your lecture.

Aaron Z
 
/ Global Warming News #828  
One more comment to the state owned health care and socialism in general- I heard it from Americans more time than I care to remember. Socialism/state owned health care etc.. did not succeed because it was not managed by the right people.
Let me tell you right here right now that the problem was never the people. It is the idea that's total FUBAR from the very beginning. If you take away the personal interest, nobody really cares where the system goes and the result is just that - FUBAR. But as I said, I heard it from many Americans - they very firm believers that it is possible. Very easy to play with theories from this very safe and comfortable country.

LOL, one example from real life. After the putsch in 1948 communists took away factories, mines, business etc from people who owned it for generations. After explaining this part of the history to one nice American fellow he asked me very logically: "Well, why did not they sue the communists to get their factory back?" That was the precise moment I decide to give up on my volunteer lectures on history and life in the East block in general.

Sir,
Your real life experiences speak far more eloquently than my words could ever hope to. Thank you and I'm glad that your an American.
 
/ Global Warming News #829  
MikePA-your argument that a lower tax rate will increase government revenues is not a fact and is certainly debatable. Example -tax rate zero - government income from taxes zero.
Typical ridiculous and absurd argument. I didn't say lower it to 0. Lowering rates raised revenue in the 60s and 80s. Facts, not leftist revision.

You'd think something that raised revenue to the government would make any socialist/communist happy. But no, if it lets people keep more of what they earn any obedient big government acolyte hate it because it's not about revenue, it's about power. Thanks for proving my point.
 
/ Global Warming News #830  
Typical ridiculous and absurd argument. I didn't say lower it to 0. Lowering rates raised revenue in the 60s and 80s. Facts, not leftist revision.

You'd think something that raised revenue to the government would make any socialist/communist happy. But no, if it lets people keep more of what they earn any obedient big government acolyte hate it because it's not about revenue, it's about power. Thanks for proving my point.



Art Laffer...:rolleyes:

When Kennedy cut taxes the marginal rates were around 90%. I'd agree, at those levels marginal rates were punitive.

Since the 1950's, marginal tax rates have gone from as high as 90% to what they are today at 35%, yet revenue as a pecentage of GDP hasn't changed.

The Reagan and Bush tax cuts produced enormous budget deficits. I'll recap, lower rates, ratio of revenue to GDP unchanged....enormous deficits.

The notion that tax cuts pay for themselves is political poop. The policy was a significant factor in the doubling of the national debt during the eight years of Reagan and again under George W. Bush.

Tax cuts without requisite spending cuts is irresponsible fiscal policy. Despite what Art Laffer and Dick Cheney say ....there's no free lunch.
 
/ Global Warming News #831  
Sir,
Your real life experiences speak far more eloquently than my words could ever hope to. Thank you and I'm glad that your an American.

On a per-capita basis, how much was Czechoslovakia spending on healthcare? :D:D:D

I'll concede....they were making great beer.
 
/ Global Warming News #832  
MikePA,
Now, now, must you resort to name calling? Bush lowered them, especially for the rich. I don't believe that worked well enough as he still operated at a yearly deficit. As I stated, those cuts are still in effect. The percent of wealth with the rich increased and the middle class lost. Is that a result of this policy? I believe revenues were up during the Clinton years after taxes were raised. I'm not going to be arrogant enough to state that it was the only reason. I believe that there are many other factors at play.

Wealth inequality in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wealth inequality in the United States refers to the unequal distribution of financial assets among residents of the United States. Wealth includes the values of homes, automobiles, businesses, savings, and investments. [1] Those who acquire a great deal of financial wealth do so primarily through the appreciation of fiscal portfolios. For this reason, financial wealth involves only stocks and mutual funds, and other investments and is subject to much greater inequality than net worth alone. Various sociological statistics suggest the severity of wealth inequality "with the top 10% possessing 80% of all financial assets [and] the bottom 90% holding only 20% of all financial wealth."[2]
Net worth is defined as the difference between total assets (includes both tangible assets such as homes and vehicles and intangible such as stocks and checking accounts) and total liabilities (debt, loans, etc.) [3]

Also it seems you're showing a true bias when you assume that anyone who feels that its good when a group of people through its government provides a good level of universal health care. Were you calling the European Democratic States "socialists/communists" or was that just aimed at me. Don't forget Canada, Mexico, Japan etc.


FallbrockFarmer-I believe there are probably some other pretty good places on this earth to live. But the old "love it or leave it" was lame when it was first used and still is. I have the right and obligation as any US citizen to work for what I believe is best for our country. Currently I am on our Town Board and do what I can at the local level. Implying that anyone who disagrees with your views is in favor of "socialist/communist/Marxist" states is not reasonable.

I may be mistaken but it seems to me that this use of "name-calling/ derogatory-labeling" has been use by a few - all on the same side of this discussion.

I've certainly used some sarcasm, but I'm not sure you got it anyway. There I go again.

Loren
 
/ Global Warming News #833  
More revisionist claptrap. Toss around a couple percentages to cloud the issue. CBO always analyzes a static model and never thinks changing policy will change behavior.

Simple Concept

Raise taxes on an activity/product = Less Activity and sales of product.
Lower taxes on an activity/product = More activity and sales of product.

Lower tax rates = more revenue. Congress always spends it and more which explains the deficits going up.

I'm done with this. You are not interested in facts.
 
/ Global Warming News #834  
Bush's problem was not a lack of tax revenue, it was an excess of spending. This national debt will smother this country soon enough. There has never been a country that survived the debt getting to 90% of GDP, and we are currently at 84%. Do not listen to tout TV as to how the ecomomy is doing, they lie. Oh and global warming is a complete hoax. The globes natural temps move up and down anyway.
 
/ Global Warming News #835  
MikePA,

Guess we'd have to classify 5 Supreme Court Justices as revisionists - or isn't 100 years considered a long standing view.

reキviキsionキism (r-vzh-nzm)
n.
1. Advocacy of the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing view, theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events and movements.

I believe revisionists freed the slaves and gave women the right to vote.

Maybe its a compliment.

Thanks,
Loren
 
/ Global Warming News #836  
MikePA,
Now, now, must you resort to name calling? Bush lowered them, especially for the rich. I don't believe that worked well enough as he still operated at a yearly deficit. As I stated, those cuts are still in effect. The percent of wealth with the rich increased and the middle class lost. Is that a result of this policy? I believe revenues were up during the Clinton years after taxes were raised. I'm not going to be arrogant enough to state that it was the only reason. I believe that there are many other factors at play.

Wealth inequality in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wealth inequality in the United States refers to the unequal distribution of financial assets among residents of the United States. Wealth includes the values of homes, automobiles, businesses, savings, and investments. [1] Those who acquire a great deal of financial wealth do so primarily through the appreciation of fiscal portfolios. For this reason, financial wealth involves only stocks and mutual funds, and other investments and is subject to much greater inequality than net worth alone. Various sociological statistics suggest the severity of wealth inequality "with the top 10% possessing 80% of all financial assets [and] the bottom 90% holding only 20% of all financial wealth."[2]
Net worth is defined as the difference between total assets (includes both tangible assets such as homes and vehicles and intangible such as stocks and checking accounts) and total liabilities (debt, loans, etc.) [3]

Also it seems you're showing a true bias when you assume that anyone who feels that its good when a group of people through its government provides a good level of universal health care. Were you calling the European Democratic States "socialists/communists" or was that just aimed at me. Don't forget Canada, Mexico, Japan etc.


FallbrockFarmer-I believe there are probably some other pretty good places on this earth to live. But the old "love it or leave it" was lame when it was first used and still is. I have the right and obligation as any US citizen to work for what I believe is best for our country. Currently I am on our Town Board and do what I can at the local level. Implying that anyone who disagrees with your views is in favor of "socialist/communist/Marxist" states is not reasonable.

I may be mistaken but it seems to me that this use of "name-calling/ derogatory-labeling" has been use by a few - all on the same side of this discussion.

I've certainly used some sarcasm, but I'm not sure you got it anyway. There I go again.

Loren
Once again with the vague, amorphous terms. Define "the rich". Is it anyone with more wealth than you? What is the dollar amount of total value beyond which one is rich? And how do we evaluate that wealth, since many things of value are far from static, and in fact are often rather volatile. Or is "rich" defined solely by income rather than total worth? If you're going to introduce these vague generalizations into your arguments put some parameters on them...otherwise you start making even less sense to those of us who are truly trying to follow what is already a very tenuous argument to us. Oh, and if you want to give me the same caustic reply you gave when I asked what big oil was, feel free to so with the assurance that at that point I will completely give up reading your side of the isssue.

So far I am in 90% or more disagreement with you, but I am willing to "listen" and consider, but I have got to be able to understand the terms of any argument/presentation. Your argument would come across as so much more rational if you used something like "those with an IRS reportable annual income of 1 million dollars or more", or those with a total worth valuation based on (name your standard or process here) of $5 million or more. "The rich", without definition, just doesn't cut it...and sounds like the name-calling you are so quick to attribute to others.
 
/ Global Warming News #837  
'Moderation in all things.'
Terence, Andria
Roman comic dramatist (185 BC - 159 BC)

I too am glad Prokop is an American and has taken the time to share his experience.

There is ancient wisdom in the quote above. Applied to political issues, I believe it means we should always be looking for a sensible middle ground.

Ultra-capitalism would result in just as much FUBAR as ultra-socialism. I am glad we don't practice it here in the US. Ism's are dangerous things.

Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #838  
... It is the idea that's total FUBAR from the very beginning. If you take away the personal interest, nobody really cares where the system goes and the result is just that - FUBAR. ...

I was bused in high school. It sure was an education. The school I went to was in a poor area of the city surrounded by public housing. My bus home got to the HS 20-30 minutes after school was out so we would sometimes walk over to the store in public housing.

What was very obvious was that if you don't own it, you don't care about it. The buildings were well constructed out of brick and concrete. Very nice looking. But not after they had been lived in for awhile. The housing around the school was very run down because people just did not care. It was not theirs. "THEY" will take care of the problems.

My first house was built with much less quality than I saw in those public housing buildings but my house looked much better because it was MINE. And there was no THEY to blame for not doing things.

I guess/hope they have fixed the food stamp program today but back then I saw people in the store buying junk food and sodas with food stamps. Even at that age I knew what they were buying was not good for you.

The radio show I listen too was having landlords call in with stories about bad renters this morning. They had people peeing in a corner of the house. One lady filled up a spare bedroom and bathroom with garbage for 3-4 months. One group of renters painted the inside walls gray. Died the carpet gray. Painted all the wall plates black. Put in a rock climbing wall. Cut down all of the bushes around the house and then put stump killer on the stumps. Then they planted wild flowers in the lawn. Cost the owner $28,000 to fix the place up. :eek: One landlord check on one of his properties and found the door wide open with the renters asleep in the living room. In the middle of winter. With a three foot snow drift in the living room. :eek:

If they don't own it they dont care....

People point to European and Canadian health care systems but if they go read what newspapers it aint so pretty. In the UK they look at your age and the cost of a procedure. If it costs too much and they figure you don't have long to live you don't get the health care. The quality of nursing in the UK sounds horrible from the articles I have read.

The Wall Street Journal ran a story a few years back about Canadians going to the US for major surgery because the wait times are so long at home. Nothing really new about the Canadian Premier going to the US for health care. On another "forum" I have been on for well over 10 years there is a guy from Canada. He had very good health and then the poo hit the fan. One of his health problems required heart surgery. NOW. But the waiting list was so long that it was very possible he would die before he got the procedure. He was "lucky" in that his job was as a health care adjudicator. His job was to fight for people to get the health care they need. Because he knew the system he was able to get the procedure.

If the Canadian system was so good they would not need adjudicators nor would people have to go the US to get health care.

The WSJ editorial page might be conservative but the rest of the paper like almost all other papers in the US suffers from a lack of political diversity in the staff. Nothing new there either. Study after study as shown this problem over the years. The WSJ just is not as biased as some papers. Like my local paper.

Later,
Dan
 
/ Global Warming News #839  
MikePA,
Now, now, must you resort to name calling? Bush lowered them, especially for the rich. I don't believe that worked well enough as he still operated at a yearly deficit. As I stated, those cuts are still in effect. The percent of wealth with the rich increased and the middle class lost. Is that a result of this policy? I believe revenues were up during the Clinton years after taxes were raised. I'm not going to be arrogant enough to state that it was the only reason. I believe that there are many other factors at play.

Wealth inequality in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wealth inequality in the United States refers to the unequal distribution of financial assets among residents of the United States. Wealth includes the values of homes, automobiles, businesses, savings, and investments. [1] Those who acquire a great deal of financial wealth do so primarily through the appreciation of fiscal portfolios. For this reason, financial wealth involves only stocks and mutual funds, and other investments and is subject to much greater inequality than net worth alone. Various sociological statistics suggest the severity of wealth inequality "with the top 10% possessing 80% of all financial assets [and] the bottom 90% holding only 20% of all financial wealth."[2]
Net worth is defined as the difference between total assets (includes both tangible assets such as homes and vehicles and intangible such as stocks and checking accounts) and total liabilities (debt, loans, etc.) [3]

Also it seems you're showing a true bias when you assume that anyone who feels that its good when a group of people through its government provides a good level of universal health care. Were you calling the European Democratic States "socialists/communists" or was that just aimed at me. Don't forget Canada, Mexico, Japan etc.


FallbrockFarmer-I believe there are probably some other pretty good places on this earth to live. But the old "love it or leave it" was lame when it was first used and still is. I have the right and obligation as any US citizen to work for what I believe is best for our country. Currently I am on our Town Board and do what I can at the local level. Implying that anyone who disagrees with your views is in favor of "socialist/communist/Marxist" states is not reasonable.

I may be mistaken but it seems to me that this use of "name-calling/ derogatory-labeling" has been use by a few - all on the same side of this discussion.

I've certainly used some sarcasm, but I'm not sure you got it anyway. There I go again.

Loren

I thought that we weren't supposed to get political,and I have tried not to name specific political figures, but....
if you are going to talk about the Bush tax cuts, I seem to recall there was an across the board tax cut by percentage,
As we have a progressive tax system"The Rich"(i.e.anyone w/ a job)OF COURSE got a bigger tax cut. DUH.
Throughout your posts your tone is somehow the rich are somehow "guilty" of some crime. As with most libs you seem to feel that economics is a zero sum game. Sorry but your wrong. Most capitalists/conservatives, understand that instead of fighting over who gets the bigger slice of the pie, it's better to just make the pie bigger.
That way everyone gets more, but that wouldn't fit into an envy based philosophical system.
How many millionaires has Bill Gates created?
How many millionaires has Michael Moore created?
At Least one. Himself. To point out the hypocrisy of the left, one only has to look the fact that Moore is worth an estimated $60mil. lives in a gated compound,owns Halliburton, stock,moved his production company from NYC to Michigan to take advantage of tax`credits that were awarded to him by the Michigan Film Board, take a WAG who happens to sit on the board of the Michigan Film Board. Bingo! His fatness himself.
I will bet a dollar to a donut that you are a fan of Moore's, Cmon Loren you know that you are! And I'll bet that you have based some of your arguments/beliefs of some of his propanganda.
As to Loving the country, I would certainly hope that you do. As to leaving it, I'm not the one that mentioned it, It
is you that continues to expound as to how our country has all these "problems"and that places such as Cuba has a "better" health care system.
Yes, The WHO list is a joke. Cuba/Morrocco/Britain have better health care than the US? Really?
As to your working on the town board, I commend you for your service.
As to the WIKIpedia definition of Wealth equality, I can do it more succinctly "Some people are rich, some are middle class, and some are poor"
And I have a solution that I think that you will like .
How about "from each according to his abilities,to each according to their needs". How does that sound?
Everybody can get whatever they want/need. Sounds like a plan. Right?
 
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