We can't assume that, since hitches capable of 2000# are readily available.
Sure there is.
Am I legal? Tow weight question (weights listed)
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We can't assume that, since hitches capable of 2000# are readily available.
Sure there is.
VitaBene
Silver Member
We can't assume that, since hitches capable of 2000# are readily available.
Sure there is.
Based on the fact that he did not note either owning a Reese Titan or Curt 18000 lb hitch; and did not mention WD I think we can assume he did not upgrade.
Regardless, you know as well as I that a 9000 lb trailer should not need to have 22% of tongue weight to make listed GVW. It would be poor loading technique at best and would tax a 3/4 ton P/U.
RobertN
Super Member
So after all the back and forth, I still am shaking my head.
What I would like to know, is where do you find the facts for all this instead of a bunch of speculation? No on has fessed up any data or source of facts. Where would one look?
My 5th wheel is rated 7500lbs, but sits on two 7000lbs axles. I assume they factor in part of that weight rating based on the kingpin load? Do they rate 5th wheels differently, or is this another case like the OP?
What I would like to know, is where do you find the facts for all this instead of a bunch of speculation? No on has fessed up any data or source of facts. Where would one look?
My 5th wheel is rated 7500lbs, but sits on two 7000lbs axles. I assume they factor in part of that weight rating based on the kingpin load? Do they rate 5th wheels differently, or is this another case like the OP?
VitaBene
Silver Member
Hi,
It is really not speculation in your case. You are likely fine (vehicle dependent)- acceptable hitch weight for most RV type 5th wheel trailers is approx. 20-25%. You can easily transfer 1500 0f your 7500lb onto your truck.
For 5th wheel info try rv.net. Also Reese or whoever made your hitch should have info on their site.
Our gooseneck's GVWR is higher than the axle ratings as well. There are absolutely NO set rules for this stuff. A trailer manufactuer can rate a trailer for whatever it feels like, be it more or less than the axles ratings.
Diamondpilot
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Looks like your math is off a little there but the answer to your question is yes. Most GN and 5th wheel equipment I have been around they allow 15 to 20% on the pin.
This is legal to do on a bumper pull but is not a common practice on certifying them. The ones I have seen allow for 10% max so on a trailer equipped with 2 3,500# axles it will be rated for 7,700# GVWR.
Chris
VitaBene
Silver Member
Never assume.
I'm done going back and forth on this one. I know what a properly loaded trailer is (and have a feeling you do too). I have owned aand operated 3 Hudson Bros trailers (2 HSE-16s and a 12T tilt deck) and found them to be good trailers so I am not knocking them as a company. In this case they pushed it.
JIGBUILDER
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someone ask for a 205/ -15" D rated tire. Their out there. See maxxis tire web http://http://www.maxxis.com/AutomobileLight-Truck/Light-Truck-SUV/UE-168N-Bravo-Series.aspx for UE-168 LT tires.
The trailer is weighed per axle and tire capacities per NHTSA/DOT571.110/.120
S4.2.2.1 Except as provided in
S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load
ratings of the tires fitted to an axle
shall not be less than the GAWR of the
axle system as specified on the vehicleç—´
certification label required by 49
CFR part 567. If the certification label
shows more than one GAWR for the
axle system, the sum shall be not less
than the GAWR corresponding to the
size designation of the tires fitted to
the axle.( end of quote)
Dot weighs the axle loads on the trailer and then looks at the tires for matching numbers. If there is a difference then a DOT officer may go under the trailer to see what the axle are tagged at. Tires capacities and axle ratings had better = GVWR. Some state DOTs go to the tires capacities. Some go with axles and tires.
The only place the truck or trailers GVWR is used is for a combined rating. The only place a combined rating is used is on the commercial side for over 26001 combined towing.
The 4x4 tractor/loader/mower in the OP thread will probably be to heavy for a trailer with two 3500 axles. The tractor probably weighs over 4000 lbs plus another 500-600 for the mower and another 1500 for the loader plus fluid filled tires.
The trailer is weighed per axle and tire capacities per NHTSA/DOT571.110/.120
S4.2.2.1 Except as provided in
S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load
ratings of the tires fitted to an axle
shall not be less than the GAWR of the
axle system as specified on the vehicleç—´
certification label required by 49
CFR part 567. If the certification label
shows more than one GAWR for the
axle system, the sum shall be not less
than the GAWR corresponding to the
size designation of the tires fitted to
the axle.( end of quote)
Dot weighs the axle loads on the trailer and then looks at the tires for matching numbers. If there is a difference then a DOT officer may go under the trailer to see what the axle are tagged at. Tires capacities and axle ratings had better = GVWR. Some state DOTs go to the tires capacities. Some go with axles and tires.
The only place the truck or trailers GVWR is used is for a combined rating. The only place a combined rating is used is on the commercial side for over 26001 combined towing.
The 4x4 tractor/loader/mower in the OP thread will probably be to heavy for a trailer with two 3500 axles. The tractor probably weighs over 4000 lbs plus another 500-600 for the mower and another 1500 for the loader plus fluid filled tires.
RobertN
Super Member
Yes, I meant two 3500lbs axles...
It is a Fleetwood Wilderness 27', no slides, kinda basic. It has two Dexter 3500lbs axles. The tag on the rig says it is 6500lb dry, 7500lb max loaded weight. Used the tag and original axle booklet to get new brake shoes; they are marked 3500lbs.
So the extra 500lbs is considered part of that 15-20% allowed on 5th wheels?
It is a Fleetwood Wilderness 27', no slides, kinda basic. It has two Dexter 3500lbs axles. The tag on the rig says it is 6500lb dry, 7500lb max loaded weight. Used the tag and original axle booklet to get new brake shoes; they are marked 3500lbs.
So the extra 500lbs is considered part of that 15-20% allowed on 5th wheels?
So you know first hand that Hudson rates all of their trailers at axle capacity plus empty weight.
JIGBUILDER
Silver Member
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What if they don't?
One is NHTSA/FMVSS regs says the sum of trailers GAWR's shall not be less than GVWR.
The other reason is one I'm personally familiar with. I've towed with class A cdl combined for 11 years moving my own wheeled construction equipment and material in several different states.
The first thing DOT does is move you to the impound lane and red tag the trailer. You have some options.
One is find a licensed vehicle alterer or modifier to come on site and add a GVWR certification tag to match GAWR's. Very expensive.
Another is then If the load is over GAWR's then you will be compelled to unload or rearange the load on the trailer to comply with GAWR's. If a second vehicle is dispatched to pick up your overload that is also expensive.
Anyone should check with their own states DPS/DOT or a weights certifed state trooper for their interpetation of how a truck and trailer are legally loaded.
Come on guys.
The 7,000 lbs is the GVW.
OF THAT; 1,950 is taken up by the trailer's own weight.
The payload is therefore 5,050; which is "about right" for trailers of this type with two 3,500 lb axles under them.
It is quite reasonable to assume that the manufacturer or their ad copy writer/publisher just made an error here and/or doesn't know what GVW, payload, etc are, doesn't know which ones add up to which other one(s) or how to subtract which from which to get what.
SURE it should have been reviewed by someone technically competent at Hudson and maybe it was, but it got through.
Enough already.
The O/P is hauling what ? 4,750 IIRC, so, ~300 lbs margin.
Not great, but good enough and legal as long as he buys tags for 7K.
Are we done here yet ?
The 7,000 lbs is the GVW.
OF THAT; 1,950 is taken up by the trailer's own weight.
The payload is therefore 5,050; which is "about right" for trailers of this type with two 3,500 lb axles under them.
It is quite reasonable to assume that the manufacturer or their ad copy writer/publisher just made an error here and/or doesn't know what GVW, payload, etc are, doesn't know which ones add up to which other one(s) or how to subtract which from which to get what.
SURE it should have been reviewed by someone technically competent at Hudson and maybe it was, but it got through.
Enough already.
The O/P is hauling what ? 4,750 IIRC, so, ~300 lbs margin.
Not great, but good enough and legal as long as he buys tags for 7K.
Are we done here yet ?
While browsing around down here in the DIM light another question or n came to mind.
What if ?
What if, what if a pick-up is pulling an empty trailer that has a gvw of say 17,500 but the combination scales at, say 15,000 ? arbitrary, but reasonable.
Does the officer weigh the trailer axle by axle and inspect the tires to see if they are adequate ?
What if they are adequate for the empty trailer as seen on the scale, but NOT adequate for, say the trailer's weight plus 1/2 it's max payload ?
Tickets ? For what ?
Out of service ? It is safe to go empty.
Does the officer point to the VIN tag and say the tires on the trailer have to be the tires spec'd (size and rating) on the VIN tag ?
Do they have to be inflated to max rated load pressure ?, or actual load pressure ?
I guess avoiding weigh stations would be the best answer,
but - - what if ?
What if ?
What if, what if a pick-up is pulling an empty trailer that has a gvw of say 17,500 but the combination scales at, say 15,000 ? arbitrary, but reasonable.
Does the officer weigh the trailer axle by axle and inspect the tires to see if they are adequate ?
What if they are adequate for the empty trailer as seen on the scale, but NOT adequate for, say the trailer's weight plus 1/2 it's max payload ?
Tickets ? For what ?
Out of service ? It is safe to go empty.
Does the officer point to the VIN tag and say the tires on the trailer have to be the tires spec'd (size and rating) on the VIN tag ?
Do they have to be inflated to max rated load pressure ?, or actual load pressure ?
I guess avoiding weigh stations would be the best answer,
but - - what if ?
Can you post a specific link?
The only thing I found is this and it specifically contradicts what you are saying, that and it references RV's
Axle load shouldn't be over GAWR!
FlaDon
Platinum Member
Unless it's on an improper hitch, 12000lb instead of 15K, nothing. Most likely that would be a GN or 5th wheel anyway. If loaded and over the tire ratings, which would be the limiting factor in this case, then you'd get flagged. You'd end up having to get the tires replaced on the spot. Worn tires would get you a new set also. One of those two items ruined a dumptruck driver's day on US-1 last month. 2 new front tires and the ire of a DOT cop, State Trooper, and a County Mountie.
Avoiding weigh stations doesn't work around here. All DOT cops have scales (4) in their vehicles. Nearest permanent one is about 70 miles south or 250 miles north. But the DOT troopers are everywhere in between. And some times work in packs with other DOT cops or State Troopers. When that happens, you'll see all types of vehicles pulled over.
Hematite
Gold Member
Really, it's not. It's 8950
Nope
So you contacted the manufacturer and he has verified that?
Funny, my 10,500 trailer coupler specifically says right on it that max tongue weight is 1500 lbs. That WOULD be approx 15%. You and/ or this manufacturer verifies that the coupler on this trailer is made for approx 1 ton of tongue weight? Simple question for you: Let's see the proof instead of speculation!
Since I am not the one contradicting what is already in print I will get right on that for you.
Here are some similar links:
