Am I legal? Tow weight question (weights listed)

[KeithInSpace]

I wouldn't split quite so many hairs. If your total load placed on the trailer is more than the payload capacity of the trailer, the trailer is overloaded. Don't see how overloading the tongue is a reasonable solution to this fact. Plain and simple: The numbers supplied are, at best, wrong. And at worst, intentionally bogus. However you want to look at it, the 8,950 figure is incorrect.

As an aside, that is a whole-lotta-tractor for a 7,000# trailer. Not saying you can't do it, but...

 

[Duffster]

You forgot the FEL.

Chris

I guess I thought it was included in the 4418 number.

However you want to look at it, the 8,950 figure is incorrect.

No it's not.

Hudson isn't the only trailer manufacturer to rate their trailers this way.

Just because it is out of the norm doesn't make it wrong or incorrect.

 

[Raw Dodge]

Id use your setup for short trips and stay off the main roads (high speeds) with the axles/tires maxed out.I would look to get a 10K GVWR or 12K trailer with brakes on both axles.YOur 3500lb axles with just one set of 10" brakes is marginal at best.You will be able to stop 100% better with the 12" brakes that come on the 5200 and 6K axles under the 10 and 12K trailers.Your tow vehicle is fine,your engine is fine.Even if you are at its limit(which you are not),it isnt a safety issue at all.The same chassis/truck with duramax or 8100 is rated for 15000+ loads,GN or 5th wheels,and 12K on the trailer ball with less payload available than you have.I gotta say these guys are right on the hitch,it is the weak link in your truck.

 

[KeithInSpace]

No it's not. Hudson isn't the only trailer manufacturer to rate their trailers this way.

No offense to you, Hudson, or anyone else, but a 205 width tire on a 5 lug rim ONLY comes in a "C" Load Rating. Four of those black doughnuts can hold up a grand total of 7,280 lbs. If you find a 205 width R15 tire with Load Range D sold ANYWHERE, I'd love to see the link.

And it is simply not possible to rate a trailer based by including tongue load for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that for their number to work out, you'd need to load the tongue with nearly 25% of the trailer's load. Just doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps Hudson is the only ones to rate their trailers this way because it is the wrong way to rate them...just because they say it doesn't make it true.

 

[Raw Dodge]

No offense to you, Hudson, or anyone else, but a 205 width tire on a 5 lug rim ONLY comes in a "C" Load Rating. Four of those black doughnuts can hold up a grand total of 7,280 lbs. If you find a 205 width R15 tire with Load Range D sold ANYWHERE, I'd love to see the link.

I know your right,on my 7K enclosed trailer i wanted a little extra tire,since tires are usually the first thing to fail,so i put on 225/75/r15 D tires with 2540 lbs each.I still have 3500lb axles,but I feel safer at 65 mph with the better tires.My trailer is loaded to 6500-7000 all the time with the mowers,blowers,trimmers,and tools..The only downside to the 225 tires is they make the already weak brakes weaker,buy having less mechanical advantage with taller tires..

 

[Duffster]

No offense to you, Hudson, or anyone else, but a 205 width tire on a 5 lug rim ONLY comes in a "C" Load Rating. Four of those black doughnuts can hold up a grand total of 7,280 lbs. If you find a 205 width R15 tire with Load Range D sold ANYWHERE, I'd love to see the link.

This really has nothing to do with tires. Nobody is debating the fact that you are limited to 7k on the axles.

And it is simply not possible to rate a trailer based by including tongue load for a multitude of reasons,

Why? Because you say so?

Like I said Hudsin isn't the only trailer company to rate there trailers with GVW higher than the axle capacity so obviously it is possible.

not the least of which is the fact that for their number to work out, you'd need to load the tongue with nearly 25% of the trailer's load. Just doesn't make any sense.

Who is to say you are not towing with a vehicle that can handle a 1950# tongue load.

So with your reasoning you wouldn't rate a trailer with 7k axles for 7700#(10% tongue load)?

Really it doesn't make sense to not rate a trailer higher than the axle rating. If we assume a 10% tongue weight you can't even load the axles to there rating without being over GVWR.

Perhaps Hudson is the only ones to rate their trailers this way because it is the wrong way to rate them...

According to who?

just because they say it doesn't make it true.

Actually it does. LOL

Try thinking outside the box for minute.

 

[ME83]

In the end what matter if you are LEGAL or not is what the plate on the trailer and your truck says, since that is what any law enforcement is going to look at. Whether it is correct or not is up to you since you are the one paying for the trailer.

Personally, you always have weight transfer when accelerating, decelerating, and grade. This is why you would rate the trailer by itself dependant upon it's axles, that tongue load will vary. I would rather be safe than sorry, a few hundred more dollars now for a heavier trailer could save you thousands if something were to happen, plus resale would be higher.

 

[Hematite]

This really has nothing to do with tires. Nobody is debating the fact that you are limited to 7k on the axles.



Why? Because you say so?

Like I said Hudsin isn't the only trailer company to rate there trailers with GVW higher than the axle capacity so obviously it is possible.



Who is to say you are not towing with a vehicle that can handle a 1950# tongue load.

So with your reasoning you wouldn't rate a trailer with 7k axles for 7700#(10% tongue load)?

Really it doesn't make sense to not rate a trailer higher than the axle rating. If we assume a 10% tongue weight you can't even load the axles to there rating without being over GVWR.



According to who?



Actually it does. LOL

Try thinking outside the box for minute.

Since you apparently DO think outside the box, I'd like your explanation of how a trailer that can only carry 5500? lbs of cargo could possibly be loaded to get a tongue weight of 1950lbs? Or, alternatively, how do you load something that is 7450 lbs to get 1950 lbs of tongue weight and 5500lbs of weight on the trailer?
And what would that object be?
And how big of a truck would you then need to tow a 7000/8950 lb trailer with an unheard of 1950lb tongue weight??

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Duffster]

Since you apparently DO think outside the box, I'd like your explanation of how a trailer that can only carry 5500? lbs of cargo could possibly be loaded to get a tongue weight of 1950lbs?

How did you come up with 5500?

If you had a tongue load of 1950 the net payload would be 7000.

Or, alternatively, how do you load something that is 7450 lbs to get 1950 lbs of tongue weight and 5500lbs of weight on the trailer?

Well for starters if it weights 7450 it would be to heavy for the trailer in question but provided you have trailer rated for that load you would place the center of the load 26% of the distance, between the ball and the center of the tandems, forward of the center of tandems. (This is over simplified and does not account for the tongue weight of the empty trailer)

And what would that object be?

Do you really need me to list the hundreds if not thousands or hundreds of thousands of things that can be hauled on a trailer?

And how big of a truck would you then need to tow a 7000/8950 lb trailer with an unheard of 1950lb tongue weight?

A F350 or bigger.

Is a 1950 tongue weight really unheard of?

 

[Hematite]

I can't confess to being an expert, but in doing a bit of research I've never seen a 7000GVWR trailer that would support a 1950 lb tongue weight. Most that I've seen are built with 4" channel tongues. Even a 5" channel tongue is not likely to be adequate.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, a 7000 GVWR trailer designed for a 1950 tongue weight is unheard of. But then I don't always think out side the box.

 

[Duffster]

I can't confess to being an expert, but in doing a bit of research I've never seen a 7000GVWR trailer that would support a 1950 lb tongue weight. Most that I've seen are built with 4" channel tongues. Even a 5" channel tongue is not likely to be adequate.

The trailer in question has a 6" frame.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, a 7000 GVWR trailer designed for a 1950 tongue weight is unheard of. But then I don't always think out side the box.

A 1950 tongue weight is extreme for a 7k trailer, but so is thinking that a trailer's GVWR can only be the sum total of the axle ratings.

 

[FlaDon]

How did you come up with 5500?

If you had a tongue load of 1950 the net payload would be 7000.




Well for starters if it weights 7450 it would be to heavy for the trailer in question but provided you have trailer rated for that load you would place the center of the load 26% of the distance, between the ball and the center of the tandems, forward of the center of tandems. (This is over simplified and does not account for the tongue weight of the empty trailer)



Do you really need me to list the hundreds if not thousands or hundreds of thousands of things that can be hauled on a trailer?



A F350 or bigger.

Is a 1950 tongue weight really unheard of?

Illegal weight on tongue. It's rated 10,000/1000 or if you are lucky 12,000/1250. And only with a special ball, hitch, and load leveling. Most 2 5/16 balls are rated at 7500, 10000, or 12500 with 10% tongue load. Next thing is, the DOT cop if he were to find 7K on the axles rated for 7K total will ignore the GVWR of the trailer as tagged. He will likely ticket for overloaded trailer as the 2 axles and tire set the rating no matter what the MFG says. Your tongue load is the safety factor. Have to unhitch the trailer and weigh with a scale on the side of the road and find excess weight on the tongue and that is where it will sit until another trailer is brought. You can't shift the load to get the hitch in compliance without running the axles up over the ratings. And the DOT cops here do know how to read the stamped in ratings on the axles.

With the states running in the red, any infraction can lead to a very close check of everything.

 

[Duffster]

Next thing is, the DOT cop if he were to find 7K on the axles rated for 7K total will ignore the GVWR of the trailer as tagged.

How do you figure?

He will likely ticket for overloaded trailer as the 2 axles and tire set the rating no matter what the MFG says.

How can DOT cop override the stated GVWR? How can you get a ticket for overloaded axles if the axles are not overloaded?

What next are you going to say you can only rate a semi trailer for what the back axles are rated for?

Your tongue load is the safety factor. Have to unhitch the trailer and weigh with a scale on the side of the road and find excess weight on the tongue and that is where it will sit until another trailer is brought. You can't shift the load to get the hitch in compliance without running the axles up over the ratings.

Please show us the statute that says how much tongue weight you can have.

 

[RobertN]

Don't know about you, but mine is on:
- the hitch on the truck
- the drop receiver
- the ball
- the couple on the trailer

My factory hitch is rated 5000lbs trailer/500lbs ball w/o weight disti hitch. It is rated 10,000 trailer/1000lbs ball, if a weight disti hitch.

After all this talk on this thread, I looked; my ball and drop receiver are only rated 5000lbs trailer weight.

I'm going to at least get a better rated drop hitch and ball. Both the trailers I tow are 7000GVWR. My flatbed is usually only at about 5000lbs or less; my "B" series Kubota is pretty light. 1600lbs trailer, ~3000lbs depending on hat implement I have on the tractor.

Please show us the statute that says how much tongue weight you can have.

 

[FlaDon]

How do you figure?



How can DOT cop override the stated GVWR? How can you get a ticket for overloaded axles if the axles are not overloaded?

What next are you going to say you can only rate a semi trailer for what the back axles are rated for?



Please show us the statute that says how much tongue weight you can have.

Read the coupler. It's a welded on a-frame 2" or 2 5/16". What does it say? That is where the fun will start as at 8950 it would be 1950 on a tongue coupler rated for 1000 or maybe 1250. That is an overloaded trailer. FLDOT cops know the games that trailer makers play and don't care about the rating a mfg puts on the trailer if it matches the axle ratings or is less. They care about stamped in markings from the ball, hitch, coupler, axle, and tire and rim makers. If they found the trailer with an 8950 lb rating and 2 3500 lb axles loaded to that weight, it likely would get impounded. If they found it had 2 5000 lb axles with tires to match, then they'd make you shift the load to get the tongue weight within the coupler rating, give you a ticket for improper loading and if everything else was ok, send you on your way.


Semi trailers are not the subject of this thread.

 

[Duffster]

Read the coupler. It's a welded on a-frame 2" or 2 5/16". What does it say? That is where the fun will start as at 8950 it would be 1950 on a tongue coupler rated for 1000 or maybe 1250. That is an overloaded trailer. FLDOT cops know the games that trailer makers play and don't care about the rating a mfg puts on the trailer if it matches the axle ratings or is less. They care about stamped in markings from the ball, hitch, coupler, axle, and tire and rim makers. If they found the trailer with an 8950 lb rating and 2 3500 lb axles loaded to that weight, it likely would get impounded. If they found it had 2 5000 lb axles with tires to match, then they'd make you shift the load to get the tongue weight within the coupler rating, give you a ticket for improper loading and if everything else was ok, send you on your way.


Semi trailers are not the subject of this thread.

Just like the balls and hitches are not the subject of this thread.

Have you seen this particular trailer to know what the coupler is rated for?

Your "theory" may work for the 1950# tongue weight but don't hold water for a 10% tongue weight or gross weight of ~7700#. I would have a heyday in the courtroom with the DOT cop that impounded my trailer that is under GVW and not over any other rating.

 

[KeithInSpace]

Please show us the statute that says how much tongue weight you can have.

I honestly don't understand how it is you are arguing this point. Honestly. The web site very clearly states that the axles are rated for 3,500# per. That is in direct conflict with the 8,950k# rating.

It being OK to load the tongue with nearly 1 ton of weight on a bumperpull trailer (outside of a 20,000# trailer behind a dump truck with pintle hitch) just doesn't hold water.

And this particular case involves a tractor. If the tractor in question weighs 7,000# (the capacity you state is available in this trailer), what happens when you drive the tractor onto the thing? I absolutely promise that until you have the load in question positioned, there is ZERO load on the tongue. If you lift the rear of the truck up when loading, then you actually have some of the TRUCK'S weight on the trailer axles, as well.

Just not getting where you're heading. The stated GVWR is incorrect for at least two major reasons and the only argument to the contrary is that "the web site says so". Seriously...

 

[VitaBene]

Just like the balls and hitches are not the subject of this thread.

Have you seen this particular trailer to know what the coupler is rated for?

Your "theory" may work for the 1950# tongue weight but don't hold water for a 10% tongue weight or gross weight of ~7700#. I would have a heyday in the courtroom with the DOT cop that impounded my trailer that is under GVW and not over any other rating.

I believe he used the wrong term- The receiver, not the coupler, on the tow vehicle (TV) is only rated for 1000 or 1250 pounds max and that is with WD, without the WD the max would be half. There is no way for the 1950 lb delta between the GVW and axle rating to be legally or safely transferred to the TV.

 

[Reg]

Farmtrac 360 TLB.

Backhoe: 900lbs
Tractor: 3050lbs
Oversized Filled Tires: 250lbs
FEL: 550 lbs

4750 Total tractor weight

1950 Total trailer weight
2x 3500 lbs axles Brakes on front axle only.
model: Hudson Brothers Trailer Manufacturers, Inc, Indian Trail, NC
Max listed payload of trailer is 7000lbs
Listed GVWR of trailer is: 8,950 lbs.


Trailer is a 16' and isn't quite long enough to place the weight of the tractor in the ideal position. The tounge is a little light when the BH is attached. However, with the box blade or bushhog attached it's not such an issue.

Tow rig: 2001 2500 HD 6.0 gasser 4x4 w/brake controller.
Max towing capacity is listed as 12,000lbs. Hopefully this is correct, I had a hard time finding it on the web.

All input is appriciated. If you have time, please include your calculations, I've love to learn how the numbers are figured out.

The numbers on the Hudson web site only add up if they assume 1950 lbs tongue weight.

My guess is that the GVW is in fact 7,000 and not 8,950
I think the GVW is most likely 7,000 OF WHICH 1,950 is the trailer itself.
Somebody did an add where they should have done a subtract.
The payload would be 5,050 If all you are carrying is 4, 750 you have a bit of margin, not much but some.
I didn't look up the tire ratings, but would assume they are at least a load range C
Ad (& Web) copy writers are rarely also engineers, although the page should have been reviewed by someone with a bit of tech savvy before it was published.

Yeah, writer/publisher error and/or lack of understanding about GVW, payload, etc.

 

[Duffster]

I honestly don't understand how it is you are arguing this point. Honestly. The web site very clearly states that the axles are rated for 3,500# per. That is in direct conflict with the 8,950k# rating.

I would like to know how or why you think the GVWR has to be the sum total of the axle ratings.

It being OK to load the tongue with nearly 1 ton of weight on a bumperpull trailer (outside of a 20,000# trailer behind a dump truck with pintle hitch) just doesn't hold water.

What is wrong with 1 ton of tongue weight? (Provided the hitch and accessories are rated for it.)

Besides what is wrong with 700~1000# of tongue weight?

And this particular case involves a tractor. If the tractor in question weighs 7,000# (the capacity you state is available in this trailer), what happens when you drive the tractor onto the thing? I absolutely promise that until you have the load in question positioned, there is ZERO load on the tongue. If you lift the rear of the truck up when loading, then you actually have some of the TRUCK'S weight on the trailer axles, as well.

This is a moot point. The shock load from hitting bumps in the road would far exceed the load you could place on the axles loading the tractor.

Just not getting where you're heading. The stated GVWR is incorrect for at least two major reasons and the only argument to the contrary is that "the web site says so". Seriously...

The only reason that we have so far is because you said it is incorrect.

I would be willing to bet a C note that the tag on the trailer says the same thing as the website.

Seriously... LOL

ps No offense taken or meant.