Nitrogen--my experience

[mjncad]

As I understand it, nitrogen makes sense in severe service environments (e.g. aircraft, mining haul trucks, race cars) because it's inert and isn't an oxidizer should a tire overheat causing a fire.

But for the average person, nitrogen is going to be a rip-off like extended warranties on consumer products are.

Personally I prefer 'Autumn Air' in my tires since the Fall is generally the best time of year here.

 

[CrownHawg]

How does the "average Joe" even KNOW they are putting in Nitrogen? This has always sounded like a farse to me. It's not like they can SHOW you the AIR they replaced it with, like the fuel pump you can MAKE them show you.

 

[Baucom]

I've always had the best luck running summer air up front and winter air in the rear tires. But then when I rotate my tires it rides funny

Personally I prefer 'Autumn Air' in my tires since the Fall is generally the best time of year here.

 

[dodge man]

A little off topic, but back in the days when self service wasn't so common, I know someone that worked at a gas station. A lady came in one night and he convinced her that you had to change the air in your tires every so often. She believed it and he let all the air out of her tires and filled them back up. He was really trying to scam her as she only paid something like $2.

It reminds me he also sent some kid running around town one day to all the parts stores to find the "adapters" that let you run big block chevy heads on a small block.

I did some reading on line and generally came to the conclusion the nitrogen is a waste of money. In theory it should help, but in the real world in makes no difference.

I would ask the gentleman who says his semi tires ran cooler, how did you determine this? Did you have a way to measure it or was it subjective?

 

[kwswan]

A little off topic, but back in the days when self service wasn't so common, I know someone that worked at a gas station. A lady came in one night and he convinced her that you had to change the air in your tires every so often. She believed it and he let all the air out of her tires and filled them back up. He was really trying to scam her as she only paid something like $2.

It reminds me he also sent some kid running around town one day to all the parts stores to find the "adapters" that let you run big block chevy heads on a small block.

I did some reading on line and generally came to the conclusion the nitrogen is a waste of money. In theory it should help, but in the real world in makes no difference.

I would ask the gentleman who says his semi tires ran cooler, how did you determine this? Did you have a way to measure it or was it subjective?

i used an infrared thermometer to check them with.about a 20-25 degree difference. say what you want,they filled them for free to see if i could tell a difference in tire wear or ride. i could,you might not. i don't have the degree's some of you have to scientifically prove right or wrong.this was done on a truck running from tn to ks. & ok. weekly grossing 82-83k pulling a cow trailer. this was my experience.

 

[Bird]

A little off topic, but back in the days when self service wasn't so common, I know someone that worked at a gas station. A lady came in one night and he convinced her that you had to change the air in your tires every so often. She believed it and he let all the air out of her tires and filled them back up. He was really trying to scam her as she only paid something like $2.

When I was a teenager working in my Dad's service station, I once had the opposite happen. A lady came in for an oil & filter change and asked me to also change the air in the tires because it had been there a long time. I explained that it was never necessary to change the air in the tires, but if that was what she wanted, I'd be glad to do it at no charge.

I've noticed a sign at my local Ford dealer promoting the nitrogen, but the service writers have never mentioned it to me or tried to sell it. I can't blame dealers for having and selling things customers ask for, even if the dealer doesn't believe in it. When I was a kid working in my Dad's auto parts store, we stocked a wide variety of oil additives. Mobil Oil engineers at the time claimed NONE of the additives could do any more good than the oil company's "upper lubes". And that only 2 of the additives, Alemite CD2 and Bardahl, could do no harm. I think they were right, and we told any customer who asked, that we only stocked them because people wanted them and we'd be glad to sell it, but that we did not recommend any of them. We did offer an unconditional money back guarantee, but seldom had anyone ask for a refund, except those who bought Wynn's Friction Proofing. We gave them refunds, but Wynn's would not refund our money, so we quit handling their products.

 

[KeithInSpace]

This is good stuff. We've bought the last few rounds of tires from Costco Wholesale and they fill all their tires with Nitrogen as a matter of course (no extra charge). I don't mind it, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.

Regarding thermal stability, I'll buy the fact that pressure variation decreases as a function of temperature when you take humidity and atmospheric impurities out of the equation (pure dry nitrogen in an otherwise purged tire), but I'd offer two things:

1) Over the course of time (others suggested 6 months...depends on how much you tinker with your tire pressure), the air mix in the tire WILL resemble the surrounding atmosphere...the benefits of filling with nitrogen are short-lived.

2) Race cars do this because they adjust tire pressures by 1/4 (or far less in Formula 1, for example) psi increments and thermal stability has a tremendous impact on performance. And, of course, Statement 1 doesn't apply since the tires last all of 30 minutes before they're thrown away.

Folks need to think about the facts before they buy into the hype. I love that you wrote this and I love even more that others here aren't sucked into the vortex of belief...

 

[Bedlam]

After reading Steve's response, and thank you for it , brings up some points, If lets say I got a tires and it didn't have the green cap on it. I would remove the stem to dismount, Id have no way to know it was not ordinary air in it.Same could be true if I were replacing a leaky stem.I would just pull the stem right out. Letting all the nitrogen at one time
is there a proper way to 'slowly' deflate a tire thats going to be changed?

 

[Wis Bang]

i used an infrared thermometer to check them with.about a 20-25 degree difference. say what you want,they filled them for free to see if i could tell a difference in tire wear or ride. i could,you might not. i don't have the degree's some of you have to scientifically prove right or wrong.this was done on a truck running from tn to ks. & ok. weekly grossing 82-83k pulling a cow trailer. this was my experience.

I have read reports on using N2 in Semi-Truck tires. The part about them running cooler is important as overheated tires cause MOST of the tire 'gators' you see on the highway. They are called 'zipper' failures as a steel belt lets go after being run low on pressure and hot from the excess friction caused by the extra sidewall flex. Once one steel belt pops the rest 'un-zip' causing the tire carcas to separate.

Most people think they are failed recaps but recaps don't have steel wires imbedded in them and while alot of truckers use recaps they are simply new rubber treads added outside the steel belts.

The other benefit noted was the N2 is slower to oxidize the interior of the tire extending the life of the tire. Since large truck tires cost alot more than your tiny auto tires, truckers look for anything that makes them last. There are tires w/ micro chips that monitor tire pressure and temperature and alot of big rigs are adopting this technology to reduce zippers and shortened tire life from overheating.

There doesn't seem to be any reason to use N2 in auto tires and I'm glad OP posted his findings. Most people don't realize that 'air' is 21% O2, 78% N2 and 1% rare gasses like argon and neon.

I used to dispatch trailers hauling liquid Oxygen and liquid Nitrogen and had a real hard time explaining to a Brooklyn cop at 3:00am that he didn't need to evacuate the neighborhood. The burst disc [pressure relief device] had frozen and popped and my trailer was venting N2 and sounding like a small jet engine and he didn't believe that he was already breathing 78% nitrogen...

I can't blame auto dealers for adding another 'profit center'; most people don't realize that the entire 'service center' is really a profit center. Most people I know call them 'Stealerships' they will adopt anything they can to separate you from your money.

 

[dodge man]

Kswan I appreciate your answer. It could be with a heavy load at highway speeds it actually makes a difference. Heat is a real problem for tires. Its not really a problem on car or light truck tires unless you load them heavy or go high speeds. Thats really the problem with car tires when you start going over speeds of 100mph, heat. V speed rated tires are better at disapating heat. I'd like to see a study where they show how truck tires work with nitrogen in them at highway speeds and car tires at high speeds. My guess is that the tire pressure is more stable, and that would be the advantage of the nitrogen.

 

[Mace Canute]

The point about less oxidation with pure N2 inside a tire might be significant to many but of course that depends on application. Oxidation is increased with an increase in temperature, so tires that spend a great deal of their life at an elevated temperature, such as highway tractor/trailer units experience, will no doubt have issues much much sooner than the tires on something like my truck where most of my travel is slow and consists of very short trips.
The deal with using N2 in race car tires is because ordinary air contains a varying amount of water vapour, and water vapour in a tire changes pressure at a different rate than air does from temperature changes. By using N2, the tire pressure increase from cold to hot is much more consistent. Put air in a tire when it was compressed on a very high humidity day and that tire increases pressure a great deal more than it would if very dry air is used. A race tire that is at optimum pressure develops more traction than one that isn't, so being able to set pressures in the pits and be able to be fairly confident about the psi growth as the race goes on is important. (Did I mention we won 8 Championships in a row at out local track in the Street Stock class?)
I never use N2 in my own vehicle...it would be a waste of time and money for me to do so.

 

[PILOON]

I never did graduate from college and I saw that one coming.

Air is Air. Nitrogen will leak out of the same holes and gaps plain ole air will.

Air is Air and will not make a ride softer.

Air is Air and will not make a tire rounder for better mileage.

I know they have suckered the whole world into bottled water ( I'm still not over that one ) but now they want to sell us designer air.

Who is this guy I want to shake his hand, right after I shake the hand of the guy that invented the PET ROCK.

To think I work hard every day and people are selling water, air and rocks and making more than me.

Hey I just thought no one has thought of selling canned dirt yet have they, there might be hope for me yet.

.
.

When I was a teen, over a cup of suds with pals we talked of many schemes.

Instant this and that was everywhere in advertising; instant popcorn, instant porrige etc etc.

So we joked and said" instant water", the $$ of the future, well bottled water is now so big a seller that the plastic litter is an environmental problem.

 

[jayste]

I'm not buying into the Nitrogen-in-your-tires thing. The only advantage I can see is maybe the dealership folks are blowing nitrogen now instead of HOT AIR!

Jay

 

[deere5105]

I drive a F150 4WD SuperCrew. My tire dealer talked me into trying it on my current set of tires. He was convincing with all of the statements of benefit with using the nitrogen. I was able to get him to fill them for free. I have had them rotated every 6000 miles. I now have about 30,000 miles on the tires. He has had to fix a couple of flats and I have been by to have them topped off in between rotations and there was no charge for it. I too check my mileage at every fill up and fill up at the same place most every time and have pretty consistent driving patterns. So far I have not been able to tell any difference in running the nitrogen. I don't mind having it in the tires, but would not pay extra for it.

 

[mikeyee]

From my chemical engineering class on fluids, its known that nitrogen pure under pressure flows more steadily than air which is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. The mixture would cause a difference in density in the air void of the tire and could cause a shift of weight to the bottom (where oxygen is heavier).


But thats complete bogus because of 3 simple points:
1. at 40-70lbs of pressure that doesn't effect unless its a couple thousand psig
2. Oxygen does react with rubber but it takes 10 years at least and I replace my tires every 3 years so.... yeah
3. Another scheme to promote something that is useless; for a fee of course. Its like how the gas companies claim their gas detergents are better than others when its all the same (all gas are required to have detergents by epa).

Yeah, for tires at its rated pressure, no difference at all engineering wise.

 

[SPYDERLK]

If you get a snoot full of pure nitrogen, your brain sends a signal to your lungs to stop breathing. That is a very bad thing. You will colapse in a heap very soon. If you are on a ladder 20 foot off the floor your chances are zero. If you are standing on a concrete slab unless someone is around to admisister CPR and force an oxygen mixture into your lungs, you are going to die. I doesn't matter if you are in a room that is full of normal air. One snoot full and you are probably going to end up dead because you will quit breathing.

False.

 

[Steve C]

False.

O.K. I want to learn. What is going on?

Please tell the Dow Chemical Company that this information is false.

Their safety program has training films that told us that this is true. Please explain. I have had access to pure nitrogen for many years but I have never had the nerve to test it on myself. I have no dog in this fight. I just want to keep people safe.

Please explain to the families who lost young men in the borated water storage tank at the Midland Nuclear Power plant that nitrogen wasn't the problem. Yes we now know that the oxygen was consumed by the interior of the tank rusting leaving a nitrogen ritch atmospher. But why didn't they breath when the hatch was opened when they went in?

 

[Tig]

Nitrogen MSDS

 

[mikeyee]

Well, after learning a lot of scuba diving (currently a naui divemaster) we were drilled a lot on oxygen/nitrogen levels in the air we breathe.

Humans take in 21% roughly of oxygen and exhale about 15-16% oxygen with the CO2. However, humans also get nitrogen from the air too. Too much nitrogen concentrations in the blood stream cause you to have a thing called nitrogen narcosis where you have trouble doing simple tasks and you are a little drunk/lightheaded (not too serious).

Now in the case of having 100% nitrogen or little to zero oxygen....you pass out, period. I mean its the same as carbon monoxide poisoning, you don't realize it and feel sleepy (you're suffocating) and just black out. There definitely is no warning and is a silent killer, thats why people are highly recommended to install carbon monoxide detectors in a house with a natural gas stoves.

 

[MikeD74T]

SteveC, I currently work at a nuclear plant & am responsible for confined space entry program implementation, am an EMT, and a confined space rescue team leader. We are undergoing refueling outage & I've been involved with dozens of confined space permits & air samples this month, including both nitrogen and hydrogen filled spaces.

Nitrogen did kill the Midland workers, but nitrogen did not tell their brain to stop breathing. Except for long term COPD patients the body's stimulus to breath is excess CO2. Nitrogen diluted the air to the point that they lost consiousness due to lack of O2. Because they developed a relatively sudden lack of O2 they also stopped creating CO2 which is necessary to stimulate breathing.

Mixed gas divers in deep water breath as little as 2% O2 & 98% inert gas at depths of 10 atmospheres. Nitrogen is not used there because it creates a narcotic effect at about 3 atmospheres, but hydrogen & heluim, equally deadly to nitrogen, are used.

The only place I could find any reference to "one breath can kill" is the slide show you referenced. MikeD74T