I need some help from a plumber

[LBrown59]

. The second somebody catches you pumping sewage across your yard and it's leaking out of the pipe is the day you wish you had never been born. It will smell bad and all it takes is one complaint to get somebody out there. Is it really worth saving a buck to try to go this route?
Good luck,
Eddie

The EPA and the health dept would have a field day with that.

 

[Freds]

The EPA and the health dept would have a field day with that.

I guess I still don't understand why it would be leaking out of the pipe or hose If it leaks on either end where I hook up to it, it would only be leaking back into the tank or into my outside sewer line for the business.

Oh, and the house and the biz..... just me and the occassional customer who needs the restroom. I'm not worried about taxing that system at all. The extra waste would do it some good.

I'm not doubting that sewage freezes as you seem to have experience with it, Egon and Highbeam, but I gotta ask after speaking with my father and someone else today who don't think it freezes; Why aren't leach fields below the frostline then?
I know for a fact that my leach field for the business isn't more than 2 ft deep. And taking that into account, the line that feeds it would only be a couple feet deep, too.
And my father mentioned putting in a septic system at a camp he used to have and he said that wasn't below the frostline. The guy he was with agreed. Granted their both older and may have forgotten, but I know I didn't forget.

I'll keep you all updated and appreciate the extra input to kick around.

 

[Egon]

Exothermic aerobic action in the leach fields produces heat. That with the ground, vegetation and snow cover prevent freezing. The septic tank itself also has exothermic anaerobic action so the effluent to field will not be cold.

If in doubt clear off the vegetation and snow regularly and drive over your field system during the cold winter months.

Note: There are newer systems than what I describe with which I am not familiar.

The danger of freezing is also dependent on the mean ambient temperature over a period of time.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I guess I don't understand why you would want to go to the trouble of pumping down a septic tank every few weeks instead of just putting in a new drainfield, it's not that hard and it does'nt cost that much for the material to replace it, at least around here where I am at. One days time and labor verses being tied down however many weekends pumping out a septic tank,that maybe one day I might get city sewer, but I did'nt see many other opinions leaning towards this so I might be the only one thinking this way. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[MikeD74T]

Freds, You're looking for answers without defining the question so you're getting a mix of pertinent & non-pertinent but all valid advice. The guy that just pumped your tank should have told you that a tank should be filled with water immediately after pumping to keep solids in the tank. You paid a lot of money for a very temporary solution, which you both may have known.

Leach fields get waterlogged from running toilets or just overuse as well as get saturated/plugged with solids/grease/soap. Tank inlets/outlets get plugged with lots of things & scale/grease/soap will build up in pipe until there's no hole to flow thru. After hearing much "I told you it needed to be pumped more often" from my SWMBO I once climbed down into my just pumped & rinsed septic tank only to retrieve a cleaning cloth from the tank inlet elbow which she immediately recognized and for a moment was unnaturally silent. ( Yes - I climbed into my own septic tank! How much would any of you charge to climb into someone else's ?? I ain't got that kind of money. )

First of all you need to determine exactly what has failed. Dig up the outlet & pipe away from the tank. You should find a small tank called a distribution box. This is where the lateral perforated pipes that disburse the effluent start. Take off the cover & see if there's water flowing into it. If not the trouble is back toward or at the tank. Clean this pipe as necessary. If the D box full of water the receiving soil is waterlogged and/or plugged with solids. Households with smaller septic tanks that flow a lot of hot water, showers, dishwashers, etc, have more suspended solids leaving the tank.

If the leaching soil is plugged it must be removed & replaced or the leach field relocated. This may be as simple as exposing the pipe & removing 12" under & each side & replacing with good clean sand which can be done with a shovel.
Or as a semi-permanent solution you can put in a holding tank at the septic tank outlet with a float activated effluent pump (usually 2 pumps with different start levels are installed to allow the spare to be activated should one fail at an inopportune time) pumping to your other system. Pump thru 1 1/2" or 2" pvc without a check-valve to allow drain-back which precludes freezing. This is done all the time in raised bed leach fields. The holding tank needs to be sized to accept the run-back without restarting a pump, i.e. 20 gallons out - 2 gallons back - 18 gallons until next pump start. Also keep in mind how big a batch your other system can receive.

My advice is do a little digging before you spend any more money. On the bright side, maybe you could call MikeRowe & tell him you've got a "Dirty Job" that needs help. Take pics & keep us posted. MikeD74T

 

[2manyrocks]

By the time you mess around jerry rigging something that may or may not work, think how much progress you could make on actually fixing the problem. It sounds like you've already had two backups, and that would be quite enough motivation to get this fixed. I remember when my Dad's system failed, and he ended up digging an entirely new system in a different area. That fixed the problem, and he hasn't had another problem in the last 15-20 years from it.

 

[plowking]

I agree with what Mike D said about checking dist. box,etc. The way you described your problem, both times your toilet was running,the system might be ok,but they can't handle constant water without having rest periods inbetween uses. Probably be a good idea to fix toilet or turn it off betweeen uses. I'm in septic business in NH. You ought to see what sprinkler systems do to flooding leachfields when homeowners mess with their zones and increase the time of sprinklers to get their grass to grow. there are upgrades you could do like filters,venting of field to get it to last longer. Your pumper should be able to give you advice if he has been doing it for awhile. plowking

 

[Egon]

( Yes - I climbed into my own septic tank!

There are a lot of people who done that. They didn't climb out on their own though.

 

[user.69169]

Yea boy Egon's sure right about that. The wife's cousin sent me a linkything to another board where some poor University Professor in Ohio fell into his tank and they had the whole dang Fire Department and Rescue Squad there to pull him out. They even had to hose him off and pack him into a giant plastic bag before they could put him in the Ambulance to take him to the local hospital.

I seem to recall everything turned out for the better though cause the Professor fellow joined the Fire Department and found them a lot of grant money to buy new equipment with. After his In Tank Experience that fellow became a community leader, not just another transplanted city dweller. Seemed like he was a nice enough fellow.

 

[jinjimbob]

Sounds like another case of 'this is why we have inspectors and the health department'.
It'll be cheaper and mostly safer in the long run to get it fixed properly.

 

[MarkV]

Freds, if the expense, rather than the damage to the landscaping replacing the field is the issue. Keep in mind that when/if the city puts sewer in they will charge a hook up fee. A friends area had sewers installed and the county charged a $2500 hook up fee if you did it in the first 6 months, after that it cost $3800 to hook in. Of course that didn't include what the plumber charges to bring the line from the house. Most in my friends area stayed on their septic systems.

MarkV

 

[kidr]

I heard of a system that uses hi pressure to renew drain fields.Don't know much about it,but it might be cheaper alternative if you want to to look into it.

 

[Freds]

I heard of a system that uses hi pressure to renew drain fields.Don't know much about it,but it might be cheaper alternative if you want to to look into it.

I wonder where I can find someone to do this? I'll have to hit the yellow pages when I get into the office.
Like I said earlier though, I wouldn't bet money that the previous owners installed a correct leach field that I could renew. That's really why I've been shying away from trying to get the old field working properly again.

MarkV. I've already been told, NOT tying into the new sewer will not be an option. The areas around here are one by one getting sewer service and being forced to tie into it, even if they have a perfectly good working septic system. I see articles in the paper all the time about a neighborhood trying to fight it and losing.

And I know I'd have to get a permit for a new leach field, then of course there's the soil tests and all... simply tying into the existing system the business uses I could do without drawing too much notice.

It''s less hectic today, so I'll have to get things figured out.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[The Dougster]

Yup... a few years ago when my little city installed sewer lines, hooking up or not hooking up was not an option... If the line was run to your property, you would hook up... Why else go to the expense of installing a sewer system?

A properly designed and operating septic system keeps the solids inside the tank and only allows the liquids into the leach fields... now, can the leach field become saturated? Darn tootin! I don't have an alligator in this swamp but I'd check for collapsed pipes near the septic tank.....

 

[Freds]

Well at least the liquids aren't up by the lid anymore. They are below the .... (not sure of the terminology here).... the pipe that the cover rests on, which appears to be almost 2' long before the tank expands to it's diameter. The liquids are about 4" below that pipe. So my guess is I'm good to run the dishwasher and give the toilet a flush, provided it doesn't stay running (lol). And that shows that the leach field is at least accepting liquids, just not at the rate the running toilet was giving it.

I think what I'm going to do is getting the sewage holding tank, the pump, and run it like the plumber was going to into my other sewer line. I didn't want to go to this extreme, but by all accounts I might not be getting that sewer line for a while and at least I won't need to worry about this anymore.
Looks like the backhoe is going to get a little more use.

 

[Freds]

I called another septic/plumber just to see about cleaning out the existing field. He said he's been doing this for 30 years and does not reccomend going that route in my area, as he sees the ground failing more than anything. We have a lot of clay here. And getting it "jetted" would cost 1,700 bucks. Yowza.
He also brought up another interesting point, he said that you are not allowed to run one building's septic into another building's septic, even on a temporary basis in anticipation of the new sewer line... Intersting. Two master plumbers who both do work in my area with two ways of doing things.

 

[MikeD74T]

I called another septic/plumber just to see about cleaning out the existing field.... Intersting. Two master plumbers who both do work in my area with two ways of doing things.

Don't know about PA but around here few plumbers are septic designers or installers. You may be relying on the wrong people. MikeD74T

 

[plowking]

Another form of rejuvenation is called the terralift,it is a machine with a probe that blasts or hydrofracs the soil under field to loosen it to let field percolate,that can cost 3500.00. The price you are quoted for jetting can be high because they may put in chemicals after and a septic truck has to pump out the material the jetter loosens from in the lines. I have jetted fields,installed effluent filters in tanks and added vents to the leachlines to add oxygen to field to keep it from suffocating. If your tank is slowly receding ,if it gets to 12 inches below the opening in tank,that should be the normal height,the pipe to leachfield leaves the tank at approximately 12 inches from top. Some older tanks have cast iron elbows in place of cement baffles,I've had those plug up with rust. When your pumper pumps your tank,he should hear water running back in from field if it is flooded,if not it could have a problem getting to field. I use a telescopic mirror and flashlight to look in tank after it is pumped to check condition of tank,baffles. plowking

 

[Inspector507]

If it is a leach field problem, I will say that the Terra Lift has worked for me for 9 years. I know it may be time to try it again. They said it would last 5 years, so I'm on borrowed time I guess. They inject high pressure air with poly styrene beads into the soil at 3' and then again at 6' all around your leach lines. That breaks up the soil and allows for the liquid to seep out of the lines like it should. The poly styrene beads keeps it from filling back up quickly. Their website is here.

 

[Inspector507]

There is a Terralift dealer in Erie if that's close to you.