natural gas powered backup generator questions

[Robert_in_NY]

I have been thinking about this but just because I like to think about things that I don't quite know what I am thinking about. Anyway, there is a gas company wanting to drill on the land I bought last year. They sent us the contract and we would be given 300,000 cubic feet of free gas each year. I would love to build a house there eventually but it won't be anytime soon as I am still out of work because of my back so this is just stuff I think about for future consideration and planning.

So I am assuming there are back up generators that run off natural gas. I am going to list some of the things I am thinking and am curious about below.

What I am curious about is can these generators actually run a house for any major length of time? I would have to see how much natural gas the generator would actually use but I have this idea where it would be nice to use the generator every now and then just to keep it running smoothly for when/if I need it.

Do they have ways to program backup generators to auto start and take over powering the house on their own (I am terrible at remembering things). I would imagine they have circuit interupters that would keep it from back feeding the main line to the grid (correct me if I am wrong) so if I have it start up every couple weeks and run for a few hours it won't cause any problems or injuries.

The way my mind works I would love to build a house that could be self sufficient off of the gas well if need be. The area this is in catches a lot of wind so we do lose power every now and then but luckily it doesn't stay off too long as we live so close to the power station and the service trucks but I don't like not having power when needed. If I could do this I would ideally mount the generator in the barn so there would be no noise in or near the house.

Ultimately I would look into as many free energy sources as possible when I build. I have researched windmills before and NY did have a grant program for windmills but I don't know if that is still going or will still be going when I finally build. I would also look into solar panels but I am concerned about hail damaging the panels as we do get hail in this area at least once a year.

So does any of this make sense or am I just rambling again?

 

[J_J]

Robert,

I believe there lots of these generators available. Here is a Kohler web site for what you want.

Kohler Power: Residential Generators: Residential Home Generators

 

[charlz]

1 cubic foot is about 1028 BTU's.
1 therm = 100,000 BTU

300000cuft is 308400000 BTU's or 3084 therms

Around here it is a little over $1/therm for residential gas so that is over $3000 a year in free gas.

308400000 BTU is 90322kw
8765.81277 hours in a year

So 10kw per hour all year long?

Somebody check my math

 

[kennyd]

So I am assuming there are back up generators that run off natural gas. I am going to list some of the things I am thinking and am curious about below.

Yes, and propane as well. Generac, Onan, Kohler and Winco are popular names in the automatic standby generator market.

What I am curious about is can these generators actually run a house for any major length of time? I would have to see how much natural gas the generator would actually use but I have this idea where it would be nice to use the generator every now and then just to keep it running smoothly for when/if I need it.

Sure, But I would step up to the Onan/Kohler water cooled (more $$$) for a constant duty unit.

Do they have ways to program backup generators to auto start and take over powering the house on their own (I am terrible at remembering things).

Yes, they "exercise" automatically. My Generac starts itself once a week-and runs for 12 minutes. I does NOT however take on the house load.

I would imagine they have circuit interupters that would keep it from back feeding the main line to the grid (correct me if I am wrong) so if I have it start up every couple weeks and run for a few hours it won't cause any problems or injuries.

Yes, they are called "automatic transfer switches"

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Thanks guys. At least now I know I can try to figure this into my future home.

 

[BobRip]

Make sure they are really going to drill and really hit gas. I have had two contracts on our land and they have never drilled. They did drill next door and are pumping my gas up the neighbors well. I think the guy does this on purpose. He ties up neighboring properties at a few $ per acre and pumps it all from one or two wells. Also wells can wear out in a few years, so this is not a lifetime supply.

 

[CurlyDave]

1. I would get a lawyer to look at the contract being offered.

2. What happens if you don't take the gas? Do they sell it and give you the money? I would rather have money than more gas than I can use.

 

[Western]

I agree with Curly Dave, I would rather have the cash to use as I needed.

We used to have a 20k generator, we ran it on LP gas but it could go natural gas too. It was set to run 20 minutes every Sunday afternoon, during the "run" it would charge its battery and do a system check.

This was a BIG unit, but it was for standby emergency power only, it was not recommended for full time use.

 

[JB4310]

1 cubic foot is about 1028 BTU's.
1 therm = 100,000 BTU

300000cuft is 308400000 BTU's or 3084 therms

Around here it is a little over $1/therm for residential gas so that is over $3000 a year in free gas.

308400000 BTU is 90322kw
8765.81277 hours in a year

So 10kw per hour all year long?

Somebody check my math

I don't know how to check your math, but at 10 kw/per hour 24/7 that sounds like enough to run the entire house for the year plus have some left over for heating


Just curious but can you tap the gas under your land yourself if that's even feasible, how far down is the gas normally?

My sister lives in upstate NY near Cortland/Binghampton, her sister in-law got a sweet deal on the natural gas under her property, don't know how much she's getting a month but it's in the thousands!!, her and her husband quit they're jobs.

 

[ToadHill]

Robert: Before you sign any gas lease please check with Forcon in Jamestown. If you haven't heard we sit on part of the newly discovered Marcellus shale deposit and gas companyies are paying big $$$ to lease the land.

Some people are getting up to $1500 per acre or more plus 15% of the value of the gas.

Forcon is setting up a conglomerate of landowners to get a better negotiating position for the landowners. It may be a very valuable call for you. I'm in the process of talking to them about putting my farm in their conglomerate.

 

[DocHeb]

Anyway, there is a gas company wanting to drill on the land I bought last year. They sent us the contract and we would be given 300,000 cubic feet of free gas each year.

I won't convert to BTU to THERM to other units, but I know my heating bill for the farm last month was for 231 CCF (which I believe stands for 231 hundred cubic feet, or 23100 CF) which cost me $243 (customer charge and taxes included). This is from MichCon Gas Residential Heating. At roughly $1.05 a CCF, your 300,000 would be 3000 x $1.05 or $3156 worth of natural gas.

A Generac QT020 Backup Generator (20,000 Watt) at 50% load will use 188 cubic feet of Natural Gas an hour, so for your 300,000 feet a year you could run it about 1600 hours, or 9.5 weeks continuous run.

Mileage estimates are estimates and your mileage may vary.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Robert: Before you sign any gas lease please check with Forcon in Jamestown. If you haven't heard we sit on part of the newly discovered Marcellus shale deposit and gas companyies are paying big $$$ to lease the land.

Some people are getting up to $1500 per acre or more plus 15% of the value of the gas.

Forcon is setting up a conglomerate of landowners to get a better negotiating position for the landowners. It may be a very valuable call for you. I'm in the process of talking to them about putting my farm in their conglomerate.

I just talked to those guys at a sportsman show a couple weeks ago and they didn't tell us much about anything they did. We asked them what they did and basically they were pushing hunting leases and the like. We tried to ask if they did much else and the guy didn't want to talk about too much other then hunting land and hunting leases I was given a number of someone who specializes in this type of things and was going to give them a call also. I will see about Forcon though as maybe now they will want to talk about something else other then hunting leases.

 

[polo1665]

I won't convert to BTU to THERM to other units, but I know my heating bill for the farm last month was for 231 CCF (which I believe stands for 231 hundred cubic feet, or 23100 CF) which cost me $243 (customer charge and taxes included). This is from MichCon Gas Residential Heating. At roughly $1.05 a CCF, your 300,000 would be 3000 x $1.05 or $3156 worth of natural gas.

A Generac QT020 Backup Generator (20,000 Watt) at 50% load will use 188 cubic feet of Natural Gas an hour, so for your 300,000 feet a year you could run it about 1600 hours, or 9.5 weeks continuous run.

Mileage estimates are estimates and your mileage may vary.

You are correct, I looked into this option for my place here in Ohio. You would use your gas up too quickly. Same deal for compressing it for vehicle use. I am also pretty sure that those generators are not meant for 24 hour/day, 365 day/year use. They make generators for that application, but I don't think that they are natural gas powered (could be wrong about this). That being said, I think it is still a great idea for temporary emergency power. We plan on doing it in the next couple of years.

Mark

 

[DocHeb]

... I am also pretty sure that those generators are not meant for 24 hour/day, 365 day/year use...
Mark

I tried to find the oil change interval that was recommended on these units, but without a serial number I couldn't get the on-line manual. I think the oil change interval is something like 100 hours, but I don't recall exactly. My manual is out at the farm.

 

[coffeeman]

I just talked to those guys at a sportsman show a couple weeks ago and they didn't tell us much about anything they did. We asked them what they did and basically they were pushing hunting leases and the like. We tried to ask if they did much else and the guy didn't want to talk about too much other then hunting land and hunting leases I was given a number of someone who specializes in this type of things and was going to give them a call also. I will see about Forcon though as maybe now they will want to talk about something else other then hunting leases.

I signed up my property almost every year for 35 yrs. Couple yrs ago signed usual contract and this time they drilled. Along came high gas and oil prices and all **** broke loose. Too late for me to change things, though. So here I am with 6 shallow wells and I only got a few $$ an acre for signing. There were some hold outs in some areas here. Also the big money came in offering a $1000 or more per acre; signing bonus. Now energy prices have tanked. My July, Aug and Sept checks were 2 1/4 times more than January. One other thing, if offered up front money to sign; get it up front. Don't take a promise to get paid at a later date, just before drilling. I know some who got good offers, but little $$. Also hold outs here have been calling to sign offers and the drilling companies dont call back.

When getting the "free gas" offer don't let them limit your use to household use only, have them include farm use also at least. Of course, they should maintain roads if the road is used by dwelling. If you have more than one well and you expect to have a family member eventially build get some gas for them. Get on agreement some kind of minimum payment per month for gas, thus less chance they might shut in your well during slow times, One gas company in our area only drew from wells in winter for home heating.

By the way, there are many holdouts here that wish they wouldn't have held out. Negotiating is a crap shoot at best. What's right today might be wrong move tomorrow.

Getting a lawyer is and ok idea and makes sense. I tried to find one when I signed and things weren't super hot on drilling. One guy represented property owners on coal leases, but actually asked me what I thought I wanted to ask for. I got the feeling he didn't know any better than I did.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd spend a day or two at the courthouse. These agreements are public record here. Armed with info about neighbors etc., I would know what the good offers are. When I signed last time my wife was recovering for an illness. So, I didn't take the time to check things out. And, anyway, I figured the wells wouldn't be drilled, just like in past.

As it is I'm happy the wells are there and the monthly check is nice. However, the well tenders and water trucks do come on to the property every day. So I gave up a lot for the wells and the check. There's gas lines and roads strung all over.

Cheers...Coffeeman

 

[coffeeman]

I have been thinking about this but just because I like to think about things that I don't quite know what I am thinking about. Anyway, there is a gas company wanting to drill on the land I bought last year. They sent us the contract and we would be given 300,000 cubic feet of free gas each year. I would love to build a house there eventually but it won't be anytime soon as I am still out of work because of my back so this is just stuff I think about for future consideration and planning.

So I am assuming there are back up generators that run off natural gas. I am going to list some of the things I am thinking and am curious about below.

What I am curious about is can these generators actually run a house for any major length of time? I would have to see how much natural gas the generator would actually use but I have this idea where it would be nice to use the generator every now and then just to keep it running smoothly for when/if I need it.

Do they have ways to program backup generators to auto start and take over powering the house on their own (I am terrible at remembering things). I would imagine they have circuit interupters that would keep it from back feeding the main line to the grid (correct me if I am wrong) so if I have it start up every couple weeks and run for a few hours it won't cause any problems or injuries.

The way my mind works I would love to build a house that could be self sufficient off of the gas well if need be. The area this is in catches a lot of wind so we do lose power every now and then but luckily it doesn't stay off too long as we live so close to the power station and the service trucks but I don't like not having power when needed. If I could do this I would ideally mount the generator in the barn so there would be no noise in or near the house.

Ultimately I would look into as many free energy sources as possible when I build. I have researched windmills before and NY did have a grant program for windmills but I don't know if that is still going or will still be going when I finally build. I would also look into solar panels but I am concerned about hail damaging the panels as we do get hail in this area at least once a year.

So does any of this make sense or am I just rambling again?

You have more than enough gas to heat house, garage, showering water etc. and pool. Might even have some left over for outside gas lites.

I considered generator but nixed it. Too much maintaince costs. To save electric and air conditioning the generator didn't seem worth it.

I have an existing house. My heat came from 3 heat and airconditioning pumps. I installed a gas boiler that has 6 zones. As needed airhandler 1,2 or 3 calls for hot water to heat hot water heat exchanger installed in each airhandler. Zone 4 and 5 heats the 2 hot water tanks in my house. As needed, the tanks call the furnace for hot water. Zone 6 will heat garage and another part of house that till now uses resistance electric heat. I'll do that this summer. I figure a 5+ yr payback. 1000 ft of line to well head, meter and well head hookup, digging the ditch to well, install boiler and buy it. I hope I save $3500 on electric every year.

On backup heat, I can use resistance heat still in the air conditiong system. It should only be needed if well is shut down for maintaince or some other reason. During a long shutdown I can start the heat pumps up, as they are just backwards air conditioners. Also, I have gas unvented logs in fireplace which can act as short term heat if power is out for a few hours.

I am thinking about putting gas lights outside. However, I am not sure if it would be cost effective. I have also wondered about air conditioning? Is there such a thing as gas air. Somewhere in the cobwebs of my mind, I seem to remember gas refrigerators and gas air conditioners. Maybe I/m dreaming?

Cheers Coffeeman

 

[SpringHollow]

There definitely are gas run refrigerators which means there likely are gas run air conditioners.

If you want to get crazy, use the gas to generate steam to spin a turbine driven compressor.

Ken

 

[coffeeman]

There definitely are gas run refrigerators which means there likely are gas run air conditioners.

If you want to get crazy, use the gas to generate steam to spin a turbine driven compressor.

Ken

Now that's a plan. Also, running a car on gas might be a plan. I guess it's possible, but expensive; compressing that gas needs equipment. I thought a lot about gas run car, truck and tractor. Then the oil tanked. Funny, though, the price at the pump didn't go down as far as I'd have thought it should.

Cheers Coffeeman

 

[polo1665]

Now that's a plan. Also, running a car on gas might be a plan. I guess it's possible, but expensive; compressing that gas needs equipment. I thought a lot about gas run car, truck and tractor. Then the oil tanked. Funny, though, the price at the pump didn't go down as far as I'd have thought it should.

Cheers Coffeeman

I looked up info about compressing gas for use in a vehicle. There was a manufacturer that made a compressor you could hang on the wall in your garage. Run a gas line to it, compress the gas and put it right in the vehicle. Only one problem, they specifically ruled out using well head gas. I guess its got too much other stuff in it. Plus I don't think I get enough gas to consider it.

Mark

 

[gordyy]

there is a company I think in wisconson could be wrong that makes gas powered generators that are designed to work with gas right out of the well. I cannot remember the name of the company but they are used a lot in undeveloped countries and for remote outposts. They are very well built and are very expensive but they are tough and quiet saw one in operation on a jobsite out in the sticks one time had been running for years other than pm work never shut off never failed will try to find the name of the company
If my memory serves me right I do believe a few years back the history channel or one of that type of channel did a show about them