Geothermal Prices in 2009

[wjoerob]

We had a Tranquility geothermal installed in our house when we built it 4 yrs. ago. 27 SEER and the whole house (2400 sq. ft.) is electric. We've been very pleased, though I wish we had put zone controls in. The kids in upstairs bedrooms complain of uneven heat and cooling. Highest electric bill was last month, just over $300. Horizontal loops, 300 ft., 2 runs, one at 3 ft., the other at 5 ft. deep. Combined with THICK blown expanding foam insulation, does the job. Unfortunately, the doofus local contractor who installed it left one of the duct runs hanging open in the crawlspace, so we were heating the crawlspace too for the first year!

 

[wjoerob]

Sorry, forgot to include the price of our system 4 yrs. ago here in central Indiana was about $15,000. The kicker is that you can find figures all over the board on how long these systems take to pay for themselves.

 

[Hammy]

This is my third winter with our Waterfurnace 6 ton geothermal unit. I have horizontal runs in my field that are 6-8' deep.

When it was installed, I paid about $18,000-20,000 for it and I rented the equipment and dug the trenches myself. I would highly recommend it and do it again in a heart beat.

I did have it serviced this winter and the guy told me it would now cost about $30,000 for the same unit. However, that was just him saying that, not an accurate quote.

We have been able to claim it on our taxes each year. I think 10% a year so not only am I paying very little to have a 72 degree house in the winter but we get a nice chunk back each year on our taxes for it.

Our house is large and open and we just leave the thermostat set at 72 in the winter and about 76 or so (if I remember correctly) in the summer.

I would recommend getting one with a de-superheater? I believe that is what its called. Anyway, from what I was told, it has to be ordered with it and can not be retrofitted after the fact. It will use the expended heat to heat your hot water, which is by far the cheapest way to go from what I've seen.

I thought that is what I was getting but after the guys got it into my basement, it was realized it didn't have the de-super heater on it. I kept it anyway but now wish I would have had them get the correct one.

I have a tankless LP water heater, which is nice but no where near as efficient as the geothermal set up. Initially, when I was given a yearly cost to run breakdown, it was about $750 a year for heat, $20 a year for cooling, and $70 a year for hot water. I pay a lot more then that for the hot water running the tankless LP system but I don't run out of hot water either.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

thanks for all the feedback so far. I have not gotten my quote yet. my quote will be for the waterfurnace external split units (I think).

 

[whistlepig]

We bought our house about 18 months ago and it came with a closed loop horizontal geothermal system and a Water Furnace. It also has the de-superheater. The system was installed in 1999 when the house was built. The guy we bought it from said he paid $14,000 to have the geothermal installed. I knew nothing about geothermal until we moved here. It's an extremely impressive system. We had fuel oil before we moved here. The house that we have now has twice the square footage but costs 75% less to heat and cool.

 

[techman]

I have installed several geo systems (for my small side business). 0Equipment prices have gone up in the last few years, with the material shortages and all. But it is still not that bad. A lot of guys dramatically overcharge for geo systems. The price can vary on the installation. A vertical well (closed loop) will cost the most. Average about $25K. It will fin on a small lot, but the driller gets most of the cash. You need average 150' of hole per ton. Usually 3 holes does the trick.

A horizontal loop is the cheapest. You need 200'-250' per ton. Deeper the better, but most go in at 7-10' deep. If you can trench it yourself, you can save quite a bit of money, and be installed around $10K average. More if someone digs for you. You need special equipment to join the pipe, as mechanical fittings are not used.

Open loop wells can be cheap as well if water is not too deep. They are the most efficient as the ground water is constant. However running costs do go up as needed to pump water out of the well. Also nearly all of the service calls I have done on geo systems are open loop, due to water issues. Dirt, scale, minerals and corrosion can all cause reliability and repair issues with the unit.

A couple of years ago I did a posting series on geo:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/74680-geothermal-heat-pump-project.html

You might find it interesting

paul

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I have installed several geo systems (for my small side business). 0Equipment prices have gone up in the last few years, with the material shortages and all. But it is still not that bad. A lot of guys dramatically overcharge for geo systems. The price can vary on the installation. A vertical well (closed loop) will cost the most. Average about $25K. It will fin on a small lot, but the driller gets most of the cash. You need average 150' of hole per ton. Usually 3 holes does the trick.

A horizontal loop is the cheapest. You need 200'-250' per ton. Deeper the better, but most go in at 7-10' deep. If you can trench it yourself, you can save quite a bit of money, and be installed around $10K average. More if someone digs for you. You need special equipment to join the pipe, as mechanical fittings are not used.

Open loop wells can be cheap as well if water is not too deep. They are the most efficient as the ground water is constant. However running costs do go up as needed to pump water out of the well. Also nearly all of the service calls I have done on geo systems are open loop, due to water issues. Dirt, scale, minerals and corrosion can all cause reliability and repair issues with the unit.

A couple of years ago I did a posting series on geo:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/74680-geothermal-heat-pump-project.html

You might find it interesting

paul

I've read this before, but read over it again, a lot slower this time. Thanks for writing this up, very informative, and also illustrates that there is a lot more physical work to install than one might think. It might be possible for me to have the trench dug. I definitely can handle the backfill. I did tell the guy giving me the quote that I will do the ductwork modifications to put the new upstairs unit in a different location than the existing AH.
I noticed some installers will loop the pipe, I assume to decrease the trench length. I also noticed some go out and return in the same straight trench, instead of a circle like you did. I'm considering taking a geothermal piping design course, if I can attend one in my area.
I have a friend who's son works for a company that has put in some geo systems. I'm gonna see if I can hit him up for some advice also.
Again, thanks for all the feedback.

 

[charlz]

Has anyone worked with a pond loop system? I am curious how you calculate how big a body of water you need versus your load?

Putting plastic pipe coils in the pond seems a lot easier than drilling wells or lots of trenching. I came across these Slim Jim heat exchangers as well:

AWEB Supply

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

be sure to keep us posted......i'm planning on doing most of my install myself.....i may pay for the heat load and design but i'll install as much as i can

I've read this before, but read over it again, a lot slower this time. Thanks for writing this up, very informative, and also illustrates that there is a lot more physical work to install than one might think. It might be possible for me to have the trench dug. I definitely can handle the backfill. I did tell the guy giving me the quote that I will do the ductwork modifications to put the new upstairs unit in a different location than the existing AH.
I noticed some installers will loop the pipe, I assume to decrease the trench length. I also noticed some go out and return in the same straight trench, instead of a circle like you did. I'm considering taking a geothermal piping design course, if I can attend one in my area.
I have a friend who's son works for a company that has put in some geo systems. I'm gonna see if I can hit him up for some advice also.
Again, thanks for all the feedback.

 

[mjarrels]

I posted before, I have a friend who's house is next to a cave... heat pump unit is in the cave (50 degrees year round)... Very efficient but he still burns wood because he has so much!

mark

 

[john_bud]

We had a Tranquility geothermal installed in our house when we built it 4 yrs. ago. 27 SEER and the whole house (2400 sq. ft.) is electric.
Highest electric bill was last month, just over $300.

Good lord! I pay under $100 a month year round. And the AC unit is 8 SEER circa 1978. (I need to replace it). House is about 24-2500 sft.

Propane heat, water heater, dryer and stove and spend about $50-60 a month on that with about double that when it was -33F for a couple nights and the month had -18F highs.

Also burned up 6-8 full cord of wood that cost about 30 bucks for saw blades, fuel, and a couple cold ones.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I posted before, I have a friend who's house is next to a cave... heat pump unit is in the cave (50 degrees year round)... Very efficient but he still burns wood because he has so much!

mark

The cave should be about as good as a ground source, one would think.
I've wondered about putting an air heat pump in a below ground vault.

Haven't gotten my price yet, but I did sign up to take a course to become IGSHPA certified. Waterfurnace wouldn't let me take their course, gotta be one of their distributors. This course won't be equipment specific, but trains you on the loop design, how to thermoweld the pipes, size the system, purge the air, etc... Maybe after this course I'll put my own loop in, maybe not...
I've been also reading up on other manufacturer's of GSHP. Seems Bosch owns FHP, so one would think they might have decent equipment. anyone have one?

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

there is a place in KY that will rent the thermold pipe welder, system purge, etc....the grouting......

not bad on price.....probably have to drive to get it but there may be a similar place around your area.....

size and design of the system would be my biggest hold up....i have a buddy that is an excellent hvac designer......so i think he could help me quite a bit.....i may have a couple of leads of some good ole' boy well drillers.....

we'll see......

post/email all your notes, if you will! i looked at courses but they break it down in parts/systems.......i don't mind paying a good price, but not multiple times.....

will waterfurnace sell an individual components of their system?

The cave should be about as good as a ground source, one would think.
I've wondered about putting an air heat pump in a below ground vault.

Haven't gotten my price yet, but I did sign up to take a course to become IGSHPA certified. Waterfurnace wouldn't let me take their course, gotta be one of their distributors. This course won't be equipment specific, but trains you on the loop design, how to thermoweld the pipes, size the system, purge the air, etc... Maybe after this course I'll put my own loop in, maybe not...
I've been also reading up on other manufacturer's of GSHP. Seems Bosch owns FHP, so one would think they might have decent equipment. anyone have one?

 

[Sigarms]

Just got this memo if it helps...

"Homeowners who install geothermal heat pump systems may be able to claim up to 30% of the installed costs in tax credits in the year the system is placed into service. The $2000 tax credit limit has been removed. The geothermal tax credit has a longer term, frmon January 1, 2009 and expires December 31, 2016."

Key words being "may be able to claim up to 30%"

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Just got this memo if it helps...

"Homeowners who install geothermal heat pump systems may be able to claim up to 30% of the installed costs in tax credits in the year the system is placed into service. The $2000 tax credit limit has been removed. The geothermal tax credit has a longer term, frmon January 1, 2009 and expires December 31, 2016."

Key words being "may be able to claim up to 30%"

Yes, this makes it very attractive right now. I believe there is a EER minimum, so all sytems might not apply.

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

i was reading some of the geothermal websites yesterday and in a few places they claimed that some systems, even with the energy star might not be eligible........i don't know this as fact, just some notes i saw.....

Yes, this makes it very attractive right now. I believe there is a EER minimum, so all sytems might not apply.

 

[TigerfaninAR]

Good lord! I pay under $100 a month year round. And the AC unit is 8 SEER circa 1978. (I need to replace it). House is about 24-2500 sft.

Propane heat, water heater, dryer and stove and spend about $50-60 a month on that with about double that when it was -33F for a couple nights and the month had -18F highs.

Also burned up 6-8 full cord of wood that cost about 30 bucks for saw blades, fuel, and a couple cold ones.

We listen to a gentleman here who promotes geothermal and many other energy saving techniques. On his radio show he has people from all over who will call in and say how much their utility bills are. They will range from 50/month for a 2000 sq. ft. house to, as the one poster said, 300 for a 2500 sq. ft house. There are so many other things that can be done for energy savings. Some of those are: caulking after the house is framed, cellulose insulation, radiant barrier, location of air conditioning unit and duct work, quality of windows, and how much shade/sun your house gets. There are more but I believe these are the basics that this gentleman talks about (Doug Rye).

I say this so we don't assume just geothermal is going to be the end all when it comes to energy savings. I'm sure everyone already knows this but just in case.

 

[Sigarms]

Yes, this makes it very attractive right now. I believe there is a EER minimum, so all sytems might not apply.

Keep in mind, per catagory, all requirements must be met.

Geothermal

Closed loop 14.1 EER/3.3 COP
Open Loop 16.2 EER/3.6 COP
Direct expansion 15 EER/3.5 COP

Electric source heat pumps

15 SEER
12.5 EER
8.5 HSPF

Package heat pumps

14 SEER
12 EER
8 HSPF

Central air conditioners

16 SEER
13 EER

Package units (AKA gas packs)

14 SEER
12 EER

Naturual gas furnace

95% AFUE

Credits are retroactive to January 1st, 2009 and expire on December 31, 2010

Homeowners that previously claimed tax credits in 2006/2007 are eligible for the full $1500 limit.

Keep in mind, this credit does not only apply to HVAC equipment, but a wide range of improvements for your home.

www.energystar.gov

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Update on my geo search. Still no quote on a system. I emailed today, they said soon.
I also contacted some DX geo people, and got no return calls from them. Maybe I'll spend my money on upgrading a tractor or something.

I have been looking at my past utility bills since I built my house in 1997, and based upon other peoples prices for geo systems, I doubt if it will pay to put one in, unless I can do it myself. But I will wait and see.