Zoning/ Flood Plain Question Ohio

[JackMentink]

The bottom line is that you can build in a floodplain as long as the building floor is above the base flood elevation (BFE). Ask to look at the Fema flood map and see if you are in a approximate zone A or in an area that has an actual study done and has a defined flood study and elevations (usually zone AE). Based on these two options:

1) Approximate zone A - these are done off of USGS topo mapas which have 10' contour lines and are at very large scale. I have seen flood maps off by as much as 400 feet horizontally in there location of the flood plain. If you are in an approximate zone A, then you will need a Registered Engineer (where not all bad) to possibly do a LOMR (Letter of Map revision). This could get expensive because you have do a study.

2) Flood Study completed and in Zone AE - This is actually the better alternative as you have defined flood elevations. While not always real precise, they are easy to check. You can hire either a surveyor or a Registered Engineer to certify your building elevation in relation to the flood plain elevation. Even if your building is below BFE you can always bring in some fill and raise it above BFE and still build it. The only restriction is that you can not build in the "floodway" (another term) which is defined as a location that is usually marked on the flood maps and is very close to the actually creek channel. If you would choose to to raise it up above BFE then the only requirement the zoning guy could enforce on you would be requiring a (yet another term) "no-rise certificate" . This is a document
filled out by an engineer that states that the fill you have place in the flood plain will not cause the Base flood elevation to rise more than .10 feet. None of these are ususally a big deal.

I would work with an engineer who understands flood plains , instead of a Surveytor who can only do the elevation certificate.

You can do the flood proofing thing for the new building but, I wouldn't recommend it it increases cost and lowers the functionality of the building.


A final word, most flood plain administrator don't understand the depth of FEMA regulations in regards to flood plains and you will hear all sorts of misquotes and " no you can't do that" , becuase its easier to say no than it is to dig into the depths of the Flood plain requirements and see what you can do.

Hope this helps some.

Jack Mentink P E
Principal
Integrity Engineering, Inc.
Rolla, MO

 

[rambler]

Tig are you saying that a farm that has less than a miles worth of land can not have a barn? Never heard of anything like that before.

MarkV

Here in my county, it will depend on the size of the barn (animal units) but they try to protect farmers a bit - if you have a livestock facility on record and running it to good standard practicies, then neighbors cannot build a house within 700 - 1200 feet of your barn.

On the other hand tho, if you want to build a new barn on new land and have more than 10 critters, you need to stay 700 - 1200 feet away from an existing house (excluding your own).

One small city 30 miles from me stopped a barn from going up -they said in 20 years they wouldexpand out 3 miles and then they would be too close to the smelly barn, so the barn could not be built!


However, just now that city got the shoe on the other foot as to flood plains - it is heavily diked for the river that runs through it, the corp of engineers did the whole thing 35 years ago after heavy flooding in the city - designed, laid out, helped build the dikes. They just got a letter from the govt this month - they will need independent engineering study to ensure the dikes are worthy; the corp papers are not good enough. Homeowners of the city do not qualify for flood insurance until this is addressed. As of next month. Period. This is a several million dollar study that is needed, can't be done in a short time.

What a bunch of morons our govt has turned into.

Seems this thread has turned political, sorry for my part in that, but - it does just get to a person sometimes.

We shouldn't build homes in a flood plain. That is foolish. Other buildings, seems it shouldn't be such a big deal.

--->Paul

 

[Tig]

Tig are you saying that a farm that has less than a miles worth of land can not have a barn? Never heard of anything like that before.

MarkV

The distance is probably less than I stated, I don't have the bylaws handy but the intent is to protect wells and also give farmers some room to farm. Our county has seen a large number of retirees move in. The bad apple in the bunch will buy a house in a field and then complain about the century old farm next door.

 

[dodge man]

Yeah you need an elevation cert. I am a professional land surveyor and have done several. Call around to different companies and get prices. One of them may have done work in the area recently. GPS has also helped getting elevations into areas that don't have bench marks. I have spent as little as a couple of hours doing one, or as much as two days. Like Ford850 said, it just depends on if there are bench marks in the area. You might be talking a couple of hundred bucks for one, or as much as several hunderd for it. We don't charge for estimates either.

 

[jdmar]

Just how close to the floodplain are you? Within feet? FEMA maps are notorious for being inaccurate, especially where I'm at. We have spent many years disproving FEMA maps for customers who were supposedly within a flood zone. If you have or know someone with a GPS have them take an elevation measurement where your barn is. This way you will know whether hiring a surveyor is necessary or not.

I know I am in a flood plain "A" but the question is if my floor is high enough. The bad news is that the local people want the floor 2 FEET above the BFE.. Much more than FEMA requires....even for AG building. I may be stuck with the wet floodproofing. That is fine as long as the "helpful government" doesn't make me tear down a very expensive building. I could not afford to rebuild.
Peter

 

[CurlyDave]

Have you ever considered just bootlegging the electrical?

You say the transformer is 75 feet away from the building.

I would be sorely tempted to let the electrical issue lie for a while and start looking for a lineman for the power company. Ask around, and find some way to meet the guy. I bet that for a couple of Benjamins he would tell you exactly how to run a line to your barn, and then come out some Saturday and when he left you would have power.

Now you would be on your own as far as electrical fires and insurance but this is the kind of thing that is not going to be discovered. Even if some assessor sees it, it looks perfectly normal. Only the building department is going to question it, and only if they remember.

 

[Ken45101]

Have you ever considered just bootlegging the electrical?

You say the transformer is 75 feet away from the building.

You mean like just having a meter and box on a pole for an RV hookup?

Then bury the cable later.

Heck, the first barn I put up (at another location), the county didn't even need to know it was there (ag use). However, it didn't have electric to it until we built a house and ran the power over from there.

Ken

 

[jdmar]

I tried to get the electric CO to hook up sighting Ohio building code...nope. My problem is not running the electric (its actullynearly done!)...it is primarily getting the meter installed. The elec. Co won't release a meter and start a bill without a faxed (usually) letter from the building dept.

I have contacted an engineer locally. There is an elevation benchmark about 900 feet from my barn but the closest BFE is about 5000 feet. Hopefully we can prove my floor is two feet above a BFE (measured by "best available methods"). If not then I need to raise the floor (already radiant in concrete!) or flood proof. My county does have very accurate topo maps done by LIDAR from aircraft and set to 2 foot intervals. If I raise the floor the county considers it "filling" a flood plain and I need to dig a compensatory hole nearby to absorb the same volume of water! I may end up filling with gravel then digging out later...hey...I can even say a flood washed all my gravel away! It seems crazy to want a floor so high when it is gravel anyway and animals pee/poop on it!? But a BFE is a BFD I have found out.

I don't really want to bootleg since if I am all official I do not have to worry about the issues years down the road or when we sell. I have been honest from the begininning. And the SAME office that said I was fine is the SAME office that now says I am not. The flood plain regs they link on their websight are NOT the regs they follow! They link me to the state regs but follow a local reg...which I don't seem able to get...go figure. I am hoping the engineering firm knows all the hoops to jump through. I know the family through my church and school and they are good people. I have talked once with them and will meet this week. I am trying to be optomistic and truely believe I will get a final reasonable solution,. But I am PO'd that I asked the right people the right questions and now have to fight like this. When all is said and done I will talk about this with my local congressman. It may not help but you never know. This could easily happen again to others and that should not happen. At least I may be able to help the next guy a bit...that would at least make me feel like the fight was worth it.

Thanks to all for the great ideas, support, link, forms, and tricks. I have been using all this info to help walk me through this. I have gotten more help and direction here than locally!! now thats funny!

Peter

 

[sandman2234]

I ran into a similar problem, but different. Building a garage on a industrial lot, that was currently used as residential. I wanted a residential garage, they wanted a commercial building. Fought, gave up, friend kept after me to fight some more, so I did, gave up, fought some more, gave up, fought, fought, and finally WON!!! Government employees just want to cover their tails, so figure out a way to let them sign off on it, without them getting into trouble. Mine wanted a 20 foot paved driveway to the building. I chased the fire marshall down and asked him if he was going to pull a $250,000 fire engine in between two frame houses to fight an unknown origin fire. He signed off on it...

Figure out how to let them get around your problem using common sense methods that they can understand. (but first you have to get them to explain why, no just say no you can't!)

Best of luck, hang in there!
David from jax

 

[2manyrocks]

Yes, the key is to get them to commit themselves to some specific reason and then you have a basis to work around. If you don't pin them down to specifics, they'll keep changing their answers and you'll never get anywhere.

Someone bears responsibility here when they told you could build without a permit and now they are blocking you from getting your meter. Codes people are notorious for telling everybody what they can't do, but not accepting any responsibility for what they tell people.

Sometimes the code is also written to give the inspector discretion to approve a specific installation, but getting them to do it is about like asking them to give up their firstborn child.

Besides figuring out what the actual code might say, you probably also need to figure out what the process is to get a variance. Maybe there is a way to override the inspector?

Is there any possibility that you have a neighbor using the codes process to hinder you?

 

[CurlyDave]

This is a long shot, but how much power do you really need in that building?

I would check what a solar installation costs. It might be expensive for the amount of power you actually get, but being able to tell these guys to go pound sand might be very satisfying. (And less costly than moving the building)

 

[LBrown59]

Do you allready have electric on the property to some other building suc has a house or garage.?

OK, so I have not updated my barn project...here's why.
I went to the Building Dept. before I started building to check on what I needed to do. They said I do NOT need them since I live in a township and am building an AG building. I would need them for electric and to get that permit when I was ready. I then got zoning approval from my township. I also got a "house number/address" that I needed to get the electric started.

I recently went to get my electric inspection. They now say not only can't I get electric but that they won't inspect a building that I am not even allowed to build where I built it!! It is in a zone A (100 year)flood plain. Well I knew this when I built...it is the only spot I have and the building was designed to resist flooding...it is only a barn after all. The building dept gave me no direction on how to resolve this issue. I went back to zoning and they still say it is no problem having the building there. The electric company already put the line 700' off the road underground to a transformer only 75' from my barn. But I can't get the electric hooked up without approval from the builinding dept. I don't want a generator since that limits security lighting, security systems, heating, etc.

I checked Ohio revised code and I am not subject to any building code since it is an AG building. But I think that flood provisions may override this. Maybe I have a personal interest but I would think it is appropriate for the building or zoning depts to tell me this when I went seeking their advice and approvals. i.e. "Hey, Bud. Lets see if you're in a flood zone before I turn ya loose."

I have now read much of FEMA/NIFP papers and they do not specifically exempt AG buildings but do seem to exempt "accessory buildings" that will not be lived in. But again the local people do not agree. I actually talked to FEMA and the Amry Corps of Engineers and both seem to think I am not being treated correctly in the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law. But they don't hook up my electric!

Has anyone come across this or have "special flood knowledge." I think If I can show that my barn floor is above BFE(base flood elevation) I can then get approval. But I really don't want to hire a surveyer, an engineer, and an attorney if I can help it. They will cost more than a good diesel generator! Any ideas/help/knowledge would be great.

Peter

 

[jdmar]

More great ideas...
There are no neighbors involved so far...and zoning says I can have it so they would have little say anyway.

I am too far to run electric from my house...but I may have to put up an elevated 4ft by 4ft "polebarn" with 200 amp service then tag off later.
Solar would cost a lot, especially since I want 24/365 power for light/security/heat. And I still want the building approved (not just electric) for when/if I sell in the future. But I am very much considering solar heat as my primary source.

"2manyrocks"--Great point on asking them specifiacally what hurdle I need to jump. Problems is I can't get that clearly stated. The most recent time I tried they now say "whatever you want" with depth of the buried electric from transformer to barn. He said "If it floods you'll loose power anyway, it's just up to you how much damage you want to accept." But iI need the elevation cerificate before it will be inspected.

So today I have an engineering/surveying company coming out for $500-600 to get an elevation certificate, and maybe start a LOMA (FEMA's Letter of Map Ammendment)if needed. I just hope my floor is high enough that I don't need a variance or a LOMA. Either of those would take a lot more time (likely 3+ months I am told). I am on "project hold" and can't work on the building until this gets settled.

I hope to have some infor either later today or at least this week. Again I appreciate all the ideas and help. As usuall TBNrs have more solutions answers than the rest of the world!

Peter

 

[Ford850]

When you get your Elevation Certificate done you should get the LOMA if the elevations look like it (LOMA) would be approved. FEMA now has a process called E-LOMA for surveyors to submit them on a website. Once a surveyor does it once and passes the audit process, they are completed instantly. So what used to take a couple of months now takes a day. Also, a LOMA is a legal document that stays with the property. It adds value when/if you ever want to sell. Honestly if your LAG is above the BFE, you'd be foolish not to get the LOMA. One more note, FEMA does not charge for a LOMA.

 

[jdmar]

When you get your Elevation Certificate done you should get the LOMA if the elevations look like it (LOMA) would be approved. FEMA now has a process called E-LOMA for surveyors to submit them on a website. Once a surveyor does it once and passes the audit process, they are completed instantly. So what used to take a couple of months now takes a day. Also, a LOMA is a legal document that stays with the property. It adds value when/if you ever want to sell. Honestly if your LAG is above the BFE, you'd be foolish not to get the LOMA. One more note, FEMA does not charge for a LOMA.

See what I mean by outstanding advice on TBN. I never heard this. Thanks a million Ford850!
Peter

 

[gotrocks]

Bureaucrats and politicians, none of them have to show a profit to keep their doors open.

Several years past I heard about the "100 year flood plane".
A company was turned down a request to build in our city.

A few years after that; we had a flood. I watched the rescue squad load an invalid into a flat bottom boat and evacuate her.

Then a couple of years after that the local power company moved into a new office building across the same street where the "boat was floated."

Guess it all goes back to the Golden Rule.
Them that has the GOLD makes the RULES.
I realize this is no help in your situation, but I do hope you can get some cooperation and let "them" (whoever they are) see the light when the switch is on.

 

[Small farm guy]

The bottom line is that you can build in a floodplain as long as the building floor is above the base flood elevation (BFE).

Oh! (Hee hee hee) I need some sleep. Where I grew up, BFE was an entirely different place!

 

[Sportsman762]

I live in NE ohio also in the Muskingum watershed that is part of the huntington district. A good portion of my land is in the flood plain. The Corps. of engineers has more or less told us that we can put a fence on the property and that is the only thing we can build. Any buildings in the flood plain have to be portable. They have raised a stink in the neighboring town recently. One house that was on the flood plain and had been grandfathered in had a detached garage from the same era. The district told them that when the place changed hands the garage had to be demolished because it was on floodplain. They tried for years to tear down my neighbors house because it is on the flood plain despite it having been built at the turn of the century and should be grandfathered in. They are quite serious about building on floodplain land. There is a very good chance that if we live in the same district that they will make you tear down anything you could build. If i want to even dig dirt in the flood plain i have to have it approved first. Wish you luck.

 

[hovenkampk]

OK, so I have not updated my barn project...here's why.
I went to the Building Dept. before I started building to check on what I needed to do. They said I do NOT need them since I live in a township and am building an AG building. I would need them for electric and to get that permit when I was ready. I then got zoning approval from my township. I also got a "house number/address" that I needed to get the electric started.

I recently went to get my electric inspection. They now say not only can't I get electric but that they won't inspect a building that I am not even allowed to build where I built it!! It is in a zone A (100 year)flood plain. Well I knew this when I built...it is the only spot I have and the building was designed to resist flooding...it is only a barn after all. The building dept gave me no direction on how to resolve this issue. I went back to zoning and they still say it is no problem having the building there. The electric company already put the line 700' off the road underground to a transformer only 75' from my barn. But I can't get the electric hooked up without approval from the builinding dept. I don't want a generator since that limits security lighting, security systems, heating, etc.

I checked Ohio revised code and I am not subject to any building code since it is an AG building. But I think that flood provisions may override this. Maybe I have a personal interest but I would think it is appropriate for the building or zoning depts to tell me this when I went seeking their advice and approvals. i.e. "Hey, Bud. Lets see if you're in a flood zone before I turn ya loose."

I have now read much of FEMA/NIFP papers and they do not specifically exempt AG buildings but do seem to exempt "accessory buildings" that will not be lived in. But again the local people do not agree. I actually talked to FEMA and the Amry Corps of Engineers and both seem to think I am not being treated correctly in the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law. But they don't hook up my electric!

Has anyone come across this or have "special flood knowledge." I think If I can show that my barn floor is above BFE(base flood elevation) I can then get approval. But I really don't want to hire a surveyer, an engineer, and an attorney if I can help it. They will cost more than a good diesel generator! Any ideas/help/knowledge would be great.

Peter

Peter Go back to your township ask to speak to the township attorney. He will be able to help you. You may have to pay for his time. I serve on a twp. in mi. and i know this can be difficult. Ken

 

[jdmar]

Well, I got my Elevation Certificate today. It took a while since there was no good BFE near me. But they finally got it and my barn floor is 3' and .24" above the BFE. I only need 2' above so I should be good. Tomorrow I will try to go down to the building dept. and see if I can get my electrical permit and get this thing done. I hope I have no other hoops to jump through...this one added $600 to the barn cost...but is worth it if I am above board and legal. Thanks for all the advice. I will let you know how it goes.
Peter