Zoning/ Flood Plain Question Ohio

[jdmar]

OK, so I have not updated my barn project...here's why.
I went to the Building Dept. before I started building to check on what I needed to do. They said I do NOT need them since I live in a township and am building an AG building. I would need them for electric and to get that permit when I was ready. I then got zoning approval from my township. I also got a "house number/address" that I needed to get the electric started.

I recently went to get my electric inspection. They now say not only can't I get electric but that they won't inspect a building that I am not even allowed to build where I built it!! It is in a zone A (100 year)flood plain. Well I knew this when I built...it is the only spot I have and the building was designed to resist flooding...it is only a barn after all. The building dept gave me no direction on how to resolve this issue. I went back to zoning and they still say it is no problem having the building there. The electric company already put the line 700' off the road underground to a transformer only 75' from my barn. But I can't get the electric hooked up without approval from the builinding dept. I don't want a generator since that limits security lighting, security systems, heating, etc.

I checked Ohio revised code and I am not subject to any building code since it is an AG building. But I think that flood provisions may override this. Maybe I have a personal interest but I would think it is appropriate for the building or zoning depts to tell me this when I went seeking their advice and approvals. i.e. "Hey, Bud. Lets see if you're in a flood zone before I turn ya loose."

I have now read much of FEMA/NIFP papers and they do not specifically exempt AG buildings but do seem to exempt "accessory buildings" that will not be lived in. But again the local people do not agree. I actually talked to FEMA and the Amry Corps of Engineers and both seem to think I am not being treated correctly in the spirit of the law if not the letter of the law. But they don't hook up my electric!

Has anyone come across this or have "special flood knowledge." I think If I can show that my barn floor is above BFE(base flood elevation) I can then get approval. But I really don't want to hire a surveyer, an engineer, and an attorney if I can help it. They will cost more than a good diesel generator! Any ideas/help/knowledge would be great.

Peter

 

[ScottK]

Obvioulsy there is no federal or national law preventing electric in flood plains - look at New Orleans. You might hunt down an electrical forum and ask there about Ohio specifically. Maybe here: Electrical Wiring - GardenWeb
but I'm sure there are others as well.

 

[2manyrocks]

Did they give you an electrical permit to do the electrical work before you started or completed the building? I'm not in Ohio, but I think we have pull a permit before starting electrical work and then have the inspection. Seems like something is out of order with what has happened in your situation.

If gave you a permit, you built, and now they won't inspect, I'd think you'd have a real reason to fight them.

Also seems strange that the electrical inspector is the one indirectly enforcing flood plain rules that don't apply to ag buildings unless there is something specific in your local electrical code that says no electrical service can be connected to any building, AG or not, in the flood plain.

Can you get them to show you exactly where in the local electrical code it says they aren't supposed to inspect your building because its in the flood plain?

 

[Ford850]

The national flood program has a set of rules that communities must follow in order to remain in the program. A community must be in the program to enable it's property owners to buy flood insurance when needed. There are various levels of rules and guidelines to follow to remain in the program. Building and Zoning departments are typically the flood plain managers for communities. It could be that by adding electricity to the property will make it an improved lot? Just guessing. I'd go back and talk to the department who is refusing the inspection, and ask them what options you have. Ask if they are the flood plain managers for the community, and if they are not then find out who is and talk to them. Also, what is the exact zone from the flood maps they are using? Is it a A, or is it AE or A1 etc? If it is a zone A it will be more difficult to prove you are above the BFE since it might not be established in that area. If it is a zone AE with an established BFE, then you could have a surveyor do an elevation certificate to determine if you are above the BFE.

 

[MarkV]

OK, so I have not updated my barn project...here's why.
I went to the Building Dept. before I started building to check on what I needed to do. They said I do NOT need them since I live in a township and am building an AG building. I would need them for electric and to get that permit when I was ready. I then got zoning approval from my township. I also got a "house number/address" that I needed to get the electric started.

I recently went to get my electric inspection. They now say not only can't I get electric but that they won't inspect a building that I am not even allowed to build where I built it!! It is in a zone A (100 year)flood plain. Well I knew this when I built...it is the only spot I have and the building was designed to resist flooding...it is only a barn after all. The building dept gave me no direction on how to resolve this issue. I went back to zoning and they still say it is no problem having the building there. The electric company already put the line 700' off the road underground to a transformer only 75' from my barn. But I can't get the electric hooked up without approval from the builinding dept. I don't want a generator since that limits security lighting, security systems, heating, etc.

You have to go to the head of the building department and see where the confusion is. As I read the above you were told no permit needed for Ag structure being you are township and permit needed for electrical. Zoning was approved by the township. You must have pulled an electrical permit if you called for an inspection they now will not give you. The building department needs to say what you/they missed in the process.

What a hassle!!

MarkV

 

[jdmar]

The head of the building dept is the flood plain manager. He said "you can not even have the building there." He said the only way I can get it approved is to have a surveyer show it is not in the flood plain. But it IS in the flood plain from the maps...but the barnfloor is lilkely above the BFE. It is a flood zone "A." The nearest BFE is about 1/3 to 1/2 mile away. He did not say anything about the floor and the BFE (even thought this is clearly an issue in the FEMA/NFIP regulations.) I am sure he's a good guy, but I clearly was being given no guidance on how to procede...and I need to procede by him!

I never got an electrical permit before building (nor was I required or recommended to get one). This same building dept said come back after the building is done and before I put in electric and they will issue a permit then come out and inspect. Per Ohio code (4101:1-1-01) I clearly do NOT need approval for the building. It covers the electric as not being needed under section 4101:1-27. The code also says ""code shall apply to ...location" also and that AG is excepted from this. But I guess they do not say that the unmentioned flood issues overide this code (I think). I talked to FEMA and the NFIP federal dept yesterday and both said they do not care about a barn. They care about people building damns/levis etc and changing flood water flow and they care about inhabited structures and their insurance. Problem is that there language does not specifically except an AG building either.

I am working through my options as below (I do not want to go back to the building dept yet since I prefer to stay "under their radar" until I have more info.)

1. Calling the electric CO and showing them the Ohio code and seeing if I can convince themtol hook me up...I will still use conduit and follow all codes. I DO want this done correctly and safely.

2. Getting a NEW barn approval for another address since the property has 2 possible access lanes which although close are still in different zip codes!

3. Having my wife go down and see if someone else does not look so cloesly and just gives the approval per standard Ohio code (maybe I can find when the one guy is on vacation!?!?).

4. Have a surveyer and flood plain/water flow engineer (luckily know one of those!) establish the BFE and hope I am above it.

5. Put up a smaller building just out of the flood plain, run the electric to it and then tag off to my current barn...tricky huh? They would likely "know" I'd do this but it would be challenging to prove.

6. Give up and install a generator and have less use of the structure and spend a lot of money.

7. Move it--but nowhere else to pu it and the cost would be crazy.

I'll let ya know what happens. I appreciate the ideas/advice/links so far everyone.
Peter

 

[Runner]

There may be one other option: At least in our community (where we have adopted the FEMA regs. verbatim), the regs. allow you to "wet floodproof" an agricultural building. That means you just have to show that the electrical and mechanical stuff is above the 100 year flood level.

You still have to get a floodplain development permit and an elevation certificate, but at least the finish floor elevation does not have to be above the 100 year flood.

One other thought - at least around here, FEMA actually comes through the community and physically inspects the floodplain areas. If they spot something that looks like it's in the floodplain illegally, they force the jurisdiction to take action against the owner, i.e., either make them get an elevation certificate or remove the structure.

So, it might be your best bet, in the long run, to bite the bullet and get the certificate (either elevation or for wet floodproofed).

Best of luck with your project.

 

[Runner]

Peter,

I forgot one other thing. At least around here (Kansas City area) the electric utility WILL NOT hook you up until you have clearance from the local jurisdiction.

 

[jdmar]

There may be one other option: At least in our community (where we have adopted the FEMA regs. verbatim), the regs. allow you to "wet floodproof" an agricultural building. That means you just have to show that the electrical and mechanical stuff is above the 100 year flood level.

You still have to get a floodplain development permit and an elevation certificate, but at least the finish floor elevation does not have to be above the 100 year flood.

One other thought - at least around here, FEMA actually comes through the community and physically inspects the floodplain areas. If they spot something that looks like it's in the floodplain illegally, they force the jurisdiction to take action against the owner, i.e., either make them get an elevation certificate or remove the structure.

So, it might be your best bet, in the long run, to bite the bullet and get the certificate (either elevation or for wet floodproofed).

Best of luck with your project.

I think that is an option per FEMA regs...but not sure if locals buy into it. I think you need 1 inch of "free flow" or "venting" for every 1 square foot of floor space...and a few other criteria. Do you know how to get the elevation certificate? Does local person do it? Do I "hire" FEMA. This is likely the way I'll have to do it.

thanks, peter

 

[2manyrocks]

Usually when there is a problem in a small town permit office, the whole office knows. I'm not sure your wife would have much luck.

See if the surveyor or engineer you know can give you any suggestions or any "official" looking certificate to get the inspector to issue the ok.

 

[Ford850]

I think that is an option per FEMA regs...but not sure if locals buy into it. I think you need 1 inch of "free flow" or "venting" for every 1 square foot of floor space...and a few other criteria. Do you know how to get the elevation certificate? Does local person do it? Do I "hire" FEMA. This is likely the way I'll have to do it.

thanks, peter

Fema provides the form or template that is the elevation certificate. A licensed surveyor must complete the form and provide his seal. some surveyors specialize in completing these forms and others don't want to bother with them. Check with your building department for a list of local surveyors who do EC's. If you don't want to go back to that department yet, then you can call around to local surveyors and ask specifically if they do EC's. Get estimates, they vary a LOT depending how busy the surveyor is and how far they have to go to find a bench mark and the closest established BFE. Another option is to go to one of the several websites who provide the service of hiring the surveyor for you. You will pay more for that convenience, but they all tell you they are cheaper. Most of those services will provide a free estimate though. Here's a link to one of the companies:
http://www.ecnationwide.com/

 

[Tig]

I also have flood plain on my property and I am going through the permit process to build. The building department and the environment people are quite disconnected at times but each did warn me to talk to the other before proceeding. The only thing I can build on a flood plain is a boat house and they are very sticky about what a boat house is. ie; no garages that encroach on the flood plain.
My latest plans encroached on the flood plain and had to be revised. The environment survey was done under frozen conditions so accuracy was in question (by the surveyor). One of the options the inspector suggested to me was to hire a professional surveyor. The work of a professional surveyor would be accepted without question. In my case I am certain the surveyor would confirm what the inspector found so I won't go that route.
In both my last two projects I was able to talk with the inspector and discuss what I wanted to achieve. He was nice enough to explain the limits of what could be passed. I still could not comply completely but they were willing to to cut me some slack. 18" of slack exactly on my current permit. They say the rules are firm but at the same time they have some discretion if the wording is correct on the permit.
So if the local inspector is not approachable a surveyor may be the way to go, if you think you are really above the flood plain level.
By the way, around here barns and dwellings must be a mile apart, no exceptions.

 

[MarkV]

By the way, around here barns and dwellings must be a mile apart, no exceptions.

Tig are you saying that a farm that has less than a miles worth of land can not have a barn? Never heard of anything like that before.

MarkV

 

[SuperDuty335]

Just how close to the floodplain are you? Within feet? FEMA maps are notorious for being inaccurate, especially where I'm at. We have spent many years disproving FEMA maps for customers who were supposedly within a flood zone. If you have or know someone with a GPS have them take an elevation measurement where your barn is. This way you will know whether hiring a surveyor is necessary or not.

 

[2manyrocks]

We used to have issues with the maps. Seems like a property wouldn't be in the flood plain and then they'd change the map to put it in the flood plain.

What bugs me is that your codes office let you start without a permit and now is effectively saying "gotcha."

 

[Runner]

"What bugs me is that your codes office let you start without a permit and now is effectively saying "gotcha." "

It's not entirely the code's office's fault. The jurisdictions write their local ordinances with the intention of giving people a "break" for small things like sheds, play houses, ag buildings, or whatever and don't require them to get a building permit. However, the catch 22 is, even though you don't have to get a building permit, you are still obligated to build the improvement in accordance with the codes/ordinances in effect which includes observing the floodplain requirements.

Then, the water is further muddied (pardon the pun) by introducing an electrical service to the building that didn't require a permit. Whoever wrote the electrical permit (probably a clerk) may not have been familiar with every square inch of land in the jurisdiction so as to be able to recognize that it was in a floodplain just by looking at the address.

 

[ChrsDrn]

Could you put the power/ main panel on a pole outside your barn then place a sub panel inside your barn after power is hooked up?
Chris

 

[Ken45101]

Just how close to the floodplain are you? Within feet? FEMA maps are notorious for being inaccurate, especially where I'm at. We have spent many years disproving FEMA maps for customers who were supposedly within a flood zone. If you have or know someone with a GPS have them take an elevation measurement where your barn is. This way you will know whether hiring a surveyor is necessary or not.

That's the truth! Years ago we got a notice from the mortgage company that we had to buy flood insurance since we were in a flood plane. Hello!!!! The nearest little creak would have to rise 50 feet to reach us!

I wrote a strongly worded letter back and never heard another word.

Ken

 

[2manyrocks]

All the guy wants is electricity to his shed. What's the big deal that the inspector can't inspect his electrical work and issue a permit for this shed if the work is okay? If inspectors took this position everywhere, how could New Orleans ever be rebuilt? Are they supposed to live by candlelight from now on?

 

[EddieWalker]

Don't know your area or your regs, but I do know that just because it's not allowed, doesn't mean you can't force them to let you do it anyway. The trick is to get a variance that allows you to do it even if it's not legal. Mostly this happens when a building is too close the the property line or inside the setback. I've seen it done for all sorts of additions that were done without permits.

The usual process starts after you get caught. The city or county comes after you to removed the offending structure. They threaten all sorts of fines and tell you that you don't have any choice. Take it down.

Then if you go to your local politician, you might find that they can approve you regardless of what the law is. They make you jump through hoops, then you have to stand in front of them and tell them what you've done and why they should give you the variance. Then it's up to them to allow it or make you jump through more hoops.

Things like getting an engineer to inspect it and certify that it's up to code. If not, then you have to show that it's been brought up to code. Sometimes you have to get your neighbors to sign off on it. They just sing a petition that says they don't care and won't file a complaint.

Good luck,
Eddie