Asphalt for storing hay

[Robert_in_NY]

I was reading the Hay and Forage grower magazine and there is a guy who started using asphalt to store his hay on. He said he doesn't get any spoilage like he did using stone, gravel or concrete and he doesn't get any stone or gravel stuck to the bottom bales. He said the asphalt doesn't allow moisture up through like concrete which makes sense. He ended up paving 8.5 acres (inside and outside of his hay barns). This way he doesn't have to deal with mud or dust in or around his buildings and his trucks and equipment stay cleaner and make it easier to load and unload his trailers. He is a large outfit so I understand his reasoning but I am thinking about trying it inside my next pole building as well as outside the main door.

If I recall he said he paved his 8.5 acres at 6" thick because of how heavy his equipment was but recommended at least 4". Has anyone tried asphalt inside their hay barns?

 

[JB4310]

I have no idea but I think your wise seeking advise, I'd be suspicious.

Sure seems like the oils in asphalt would maybe make it less pervious to wicking up moisture but it's not as stable as concrete.

I think the key is the base, with a well drained base the concrete should not wick water up thru, I've thought about using asphalt floors in out buildings but mainly to save money, concrete floor in a building will outlast the building, don't think asphalt would hold up, especially if you did any type of maintenance in there, like jacking vehicles, placing equipment etc.
If the space was strictly used for forage then maybe a good idea, and you may get away with less attention to draining the base.

As far as outside, a proper base is most important. without it asphalt does not fare well no matter how thick it's put down. I would suspect that the operation you read about was not in a deep freeze/frost zone, look at any parking lot around your area, after a few years you can see what this harsh environment does to anything laying/placed on the ground.

8.5 acres of 6" thick asphalt, wouldn't want to get that bill

Good Luck,
JB.

 

[radman1]

Another potential problem would be tearing up the surface of the asphalt on hotter days with the tractor tires. The notion of asphalt is intriguing but I haven't seen it used in my area.

 

[flusher]

I was reading the Hay and Forage grower magazine and there is a guy who started using asphalt to store his hay on. He said he doesn't get any spoilage like he did using stone, gravel or concrete and he doesn't get any stone or gravel stuck to the bottom bales. He said the asphalt doesn't allow moisture up through like concrete which makes sense. He ended up paving 8.5 acres (inside and outside of his hay barns). This way he doesn't have to deal with mud or dust in or around his buildings and his trucks and equipment stay cleaner and make it easier to load and unload his trailers. He is a large outfit so I understand his reasoning but I am thinking about trying it inside my next pole building as well as outside the main door.

If I recall he said he paved his 8.5 acres at 6" thick because of how heavy his equipment was but recommended at least 4". Has anyone tried asphalt inside their hay barns?

Maybe an epoxy coating on concrete would solve the moisture problem. A lot less expensive than 4-6 inches of asphalt paving.

 

[zionview]

We occasionally stored round bales on asphalt that we brushed mortar mix into to seal it, but I'm just not seeing the advantage here. It's been mentioned about tearing it up on hot days, and I'd think it might seal against the hay and make a spoiled layer next to the asphalt. I really wonder if that would pay.

 

[Hoosier Hay Man]

I read the same article and one guy is in ND and the other in Ohio. the gentleman form ND grows about 3000 acres of alfalfa and alfalfa/grass mix hay a year. Handles up to 40,000 tons a year.
From the photos in the article it looks really nice. His barns are steel frame open hay barns. He uses a John Deere teleloader to load large square bales.
Wouldn't want to use a skid loader on a hot day.
It would work if it is as the other said a firm base and plenty thick. Use caution on hot days.

The problem I have with my concrete floors in my barns is sweating when we get these rapid temp swings we have had this winter. We have seen 70deg changes in 3 days. -20 below to 50 in about three days.

Definitly be an expensive endevor.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm not a believer in concrete wicking water up from the ground. If you take a four inch thick piece of concrete and set it in a two inch puddle of water, the top of that concrete will never get wet. There will be a small amount of moisture travel up the side of that concrete, but zero of it will be inside of the concrete and zero moisture will work it's way to the top of the concrete. Simple test.

For those who think water comes out of the ground and onto their concrete, consider the the soil under the concrete is going to be dryer then the soil outside of the house. If you have so much moisture under the concrete, then you have other issues. If you think that this non existante moisture is working it way up through solid concrete, then look under your bathtub. The drain lines on most tubs go through an opening in the slab that is wide open to the soil under the slab. It's going to be bone dry because moisture isn't under concrete after it's sat for a year or more.

Why asphalt would be better then concrete is a mystery. While I would consider the amount of oil in the asphault to be minimal for the animals eating the hay, the asphault itself is going to be much, much more pourous the concrete. On very hot days, asphalt gets soft. Having it thick enough should halp prevent allot of the damage that 2 inch driveways go through, but at what expense?

Eddie

 

[slowzuki]

Concrete does indeed wick but a vapour barrier under stops it. In humid areas like Eddie's condensation from the room is a bigger problem I'm sure.

Locally there are some sileage pits that are asphalted and also one guys hay barn.

Its so expensive now I don't know if it is worth it.

BTW Asphalt lets moisture through too unless a sealer is applied. It does slow it down a lot though. All the DOT salt domes here have it for floors and they are still having problems contaminating neighbouring wells.

 

[lfc]

I'm building a new hay barn now, and have been trying to figure out the best floor too. From what I understand, any moisture coming up from the ground can be blocked with a plastic vapor barrier. However, there is still some moisture left in the hay, and that is why concrete even with a vapor barrier isn't the best since the bottom of the hay can't breathe. I was told that you can get a coarse grade of asphalt, similar to the stuff used in base layers of roads, that has minimal fines and is therefore very porous. As long as the aspahalt is covered under the roof, I don't think the heat would soften it that much. Other option is crushed stone, but I would think that would become a mess eventually with loose hay mixed in. I'll be using a bale wagon, so pallets aren't a possibility.

 

[AKfish]

Concrete does indeed wick but a vapour barrier under stops it. In humid areas like Eddie's condensation from the room is a bigger problem I'm sure.

I think that what's really going on is - the concrete slab is cooler than the surrounding air - and the warmer, moist air in contact with the concrete surface condenses; and the moisture collects on the surface; i.e "sweats".

I've read that one approach to reduce concrete "sweating" is to place an insulating layer of blue foam insulation between the poured concrete and the ground. Won't eliminate the problem entirely but will make it "less" of a problem.

AKfish

 

[slowzuki]

Its all dependent on your climate. If you live in a damp area the temperature lag in the concrete leads to condensation. In areas with lots of ground moisture it will wick through the concrete to the air. In a dry area the air removes the water so fast you would never see a wet surface. Around here, if you lay a piece of plastic sheet tightly over it you will see water under the plastic if there is no vapour barrier underneath. This matters most when something like a sill is on the floor because it can keep it permanently damp.

There are water proof cements available too.

The blue board helps stop condensation by helping the concrete stay at air temp instead of ground temp. It also helps stop wicking because it is also a vapour barrier.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Thanks for all the feedback on this. I have not priced Asphalt recently but concrete is not cheap anymore either. Both systems need a good base but I always like to learn about new or different systems which is why I was intrigued about using asphalt in the hay barn. Regardless to what I put down there will be a lot of drainage put in and around the hay barn and the barn will be raised higher then the surrounding ground to help keep water away.

 

[JB4310]

Regardless to what I put down there will be a lot of drainage put in and around the hay barn and the barn will be raised higher then the surrounding ground to help keep water away.

I think that's more important than what you put down, especially raising the floor higher than the surrounding grade. IMO concrete would be the best choice for a forever, stable multi use floor.

Whatever you choose, good luck.

JB.

 

[jimmysisson]

We've poured lots of floors on blue foam, it's an excellent barrier to condensation. My pole garage, no door, the floor only rarely gets condensation, whereas the bay next (old conc poured on the ground, no vb) gets soaked even inside the garage. Good drainage, good prep, and foam. I'd go concrete over asphalt any day for a working floor.
Jim

 

[firemen122]

Eddie I can take you to several buildings here in Fl. that if we lose power (no a/c) within 45 minutes the concrete is dripping wet. Trust me concrete will most definately wick moisture up...... Especially if the builder was cheap and did not put vapor barrier down. It is probably geographic dependant....

I'm not a believer in concrete wicking water up from the ground. If you take a four inch thick piece of concrete and set it in a two inch puddle of water, the top of that concrete will never get wet. There will be a small amount of moisture travel up the side of that concrete, but zero of it will be inside of the concrete and zero moisture will work it's way to the top of the concrete. Simple test.

For those who think water comes out of the ground and onto their concrete, consider the the soil under the concrete is going to be dryer then the soil outside of the house. If you have so much moisture under the concrete, then you have other issues. If you think that this non existante moisture is working it way up through solid concrete, then look under your bathtub. The drain lines on most tubs go through an opening in the slab that is wide open to the soil under the slab. It's going to be bone dry because moisture isn't under concrete after it's sat for a year or more.

Why asphalt would be better then concrete is a mystery. While I would consider the amount of oil in the asphault to be minimal for the animals eating the hay, the asphault itself is going to be much, much more pourous the concrete. On very hot days, asphalt gets soft. Having it thick enough should halp prevent allot of the damage that 2 inch driveways go through, but at what expense?

Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

I think you explained what's happening, but don't realize what it is. Air had water vapor in it. At a certain tempature, air can hold a certain amount of water. The hotter it is, the more water that the air can hold. This water vapor is commonly called humidity. As the air warms up, the water vapor level can rise in wet climates, or areas around water. This can be felt when the humiditly level rises.

When the air tempature cools quickly, the water vapor can turn to fog and even a dripping mist. On warm days with allot of humidty, if you cool just a part of the air, you wil create condensation. The most common example of this is a cold drink. The air right outside of the container of that drink will be cooler then the rest of the air. In that very small space, the water level in the air will exceed what the air can support, and the water will form into condensation.

This is the exact same thing that happens on top of concrete. It is what all of you think of as sweating. The moisture that you see on top of the concrete is from the air tempatures changing when coming into contact with the concrete. It is a wives tale that water is coming up and through the ground below it and leaving water on top of the concrete.

Part of this misconception is that people use plastic barriers under the concrete when they pour it and are told it's to stop the ground water from coming up throught a solid slab of concrete after it's cured. This is just plain silly, but as we've seen already, people believe it and don't question how this happens.

Plastic is used to keep the mosture level in the concrete at the time of the pour consistant. If the soil below the pour draws or wicks the moisture out of the concrete when it is poured, you will havea very week slab. Foam insulation also provedes the same result, but also helps insulate the concrete from the tempatures of the ground.

Here are some observations and questions that nobody who believes that concrete wicks water up from the ground can answer, but proves my point.

Pour water on top of your slab. Does it drain down through the slab from the force of gravity? or being pourous?

It won't happen. If water can work it's way up through concrete against the pull of gravity, then it should also work it's way down through a slab.

If you want to say that hydraulic preasure is the cause of the water coming up through the concrete, then you also have to take into consideration that hydraulic preasure will follow the path of least resistance and force the water out through the sides of the slab.

There are also holes in the slab of every home. The drain lines all go through the slab and into the ground. Most are wraped in foam to protect the pipes, but they are by no means water tite. The drain line for the bathtub and shower have traps in them and require a larger opening in the slab. In these locations, the hole may be several inches that goes right down to the soil under the slab. This will be some of the very driest and hardest dirt that you will come across.

The soil under a slab does not have any moisture in it. Or at least not an amount that anybody would consider wet. Once the slab is poured and cured, that soild under the slab begins to dry out. It just keeps gettin dryer and dryer. Where does the water come from if you think it's coming up from the ground and settling on top of the concrete?

If you think that the water is coming under the footings of your slab and working it's way to the wet areas of the slab, you are assuming that the hydraulic preasure is violationg the law of water traveling along the path of least resisitance. Just try to force water under a slab while digging a hole for a water or drain line. Water does not want to go under there under pressure, it's surely not doing so on it's own.

If you are one of those who think there is a tunnel or river that the water flows through under your slab, and some have said that's what happens at their place, then you are in for a building that's just waiting to collapse.

Lets say that you don't believe any of this and have never worked on the slab of a house or tried to dig under one. Lets say that you believe that water will work it's way up throught concrete and my years of working on homes and personaly experience doesn't convince you otherwise. All you have to do it one simple test. Take a piece of concrete and set it in one inch of standing water. Then wait and watch what happens........

If it doesn't rain, the top of that piece of concrete will never get wet. You wil notice some wicking up the sides of the concrete, but it will only go so far and then stop.

Look where you see moisture on top of the concrete and you will find that it's a result of condensation. Plastic on top of it on the right day with enough water vapor in the air, or humidity levels will cause this. A shop with one tempature inside and another tempature on the outside will cause this too. It's all about the air, water vapor and tempatures.

If you think concrete is coming up through the concrete in one place, like your shop or garage, why don't you have concrete with water on it inside the house?

This all relates to a concrete slab, not a basement, which is under extreme hydraulic pressure. Two totaly different set of conditions and not related to each other. The same is true for a swimming pool. Except for proving that concrete is water proof, a swimming pool is also under hydraulic pressure and will actually come out of the ground if left empty when the soild becomes saturated.

Eddie

 

[JB4310]

I think you explained what's happening, but don't realize what it is. Air had water vapor in it. At a certain tempature, air can hold a certain amount of water. The hotter it is, the more water that the air can hold. This water vapor is commonly called humidity. As the air warms up, the water vapor level can rise in wet climates, or areas around water. This can be felt when the humiditly level rises.
Eddie

Abbreviated quote,



Eddie,

I don't want to buck heads with you, cause what you are saying is generally/practically accurate in "usual" situations, but water is the #1 and most elusive problem to deal with in the building construction/maintenance industry. IMO it's way to complex an issue that I don't think you can paint over this subject with such a broad brush.

I'm also a contractor, that deals with water problems both above grade and below. about 50% of my work involves basement and slab on grade drainage systems (only a small percentage of that is slab on grade work). The other 50% of the work I do is exterior building maintenance which is almost completely dedicated to water issues, the popular term now used by engineers and architects for this specialty field of work is Envelope Contractor.

Both above and below grade water problems have their own unique characteristics, and obey their general expectations most of the time. But often times these general rules can cross over or morph and add to the elusiveness of an on going problem.

Hydrostatics and capillary action are the 2 main trouble makers, and though they are governed by strict laws of physics, I've seen situations on jobs where you would scratch your head thinking you must be in a vacuum, of course ultimately physics will hold the answer, but often takes a good bit of detective work to figure it out.

This link both bolsters and contradicts your position.
http://www.itwresintech.com/pdf/library/waterwat.pdf


This one is more techno
Capillary Transport in Mortars and Concrete


Here's another good read for OP as it mentions a capillary break.
Moisture In Concrete

JB.

 

[EddieWalker]

JB,

I enjoyed reading all three links, but don't think we're talking about the same thing. In the links you provided, the problems are drainage related. While a few methods were mentioned to avoid this, I didn't see where moisture was able to get through a solid slab. Cracks were a big factor in the amount of moisture that was able to get through the slab, but only with allot of moisture in the soild benieth the slab. Again, this isn't apples to apples. I can see the challenge in diagnosing these issues in flooring problems, but don't see how it relates to the misconception that a concrete slab on a properly built pad allows water to pass through it.

Eddie

 

[Egon]

Are there a lot of concrete floored warehouses out there with water problems the originate with water coming through the slab?

How about houses built on slabs?

Then I think of all those septic tanks out there!

Concrete does have porosity and permeability. The degree of each will determined by the type of aggregate, mix qualities and the placement procedures. Some aggregates will be impervious.

The rate of permeability will also depend on hydraulic pressure applied, the pore size, water molecule size, wetting of the pores and period of time. For a good quality concrete with little pressure it may take a while for any really noticeable quantity of water to get through.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Are there a lot of concrete floored warehouses out there with water problems the originate with water coming through the slab?

How about houses built on slabs?

Then I think of all those septic tanks out there!

Concrete does have porosity and permeability. The degree of each will determined by the type of aggregate, mix qualities and the placement procedures. Some aggregates will be impervious.

The rate of permeability will also depend on hydraulic pressure applied, the pore size, water molecule size, wetting of the pores and period of time. For a good quality concrete with little pressure it may take a while for any really noticeable quantity of water to get through.

The main difference between houses and factories compared to hay barns is hay barns are not heated. With a heat source I doubt you will notice any moisture in concrete. Take that away and you may have problems. We did a job last fall and the basement was not tiled around the outside. The guys who put the water proofing on did it wrong and it didn't stick. You could see where the water was pooling outside the walls while inside the basement. The walls were wet in ways where it resembled a cross section of a hill. The water was coming directly through the wall. Once the house was tiled properly and waterproofed properly the problem was gone before we turned the heat on. It was still damp but the major water issue was taken care of.

With hay barns though there is more to them then just water possibly wicking through the concrete. Concrete does not breath at all so there is no air flow once you put hay on the floor. It is a given in this area that if you stack hay on concrete you will have spoilage. Now if you stack the same hay on a wood floor you won't have any spoilage unless it is a wet bale in which case it shouldn't be in there anyways. Wood is the best choice for stacking hay but it is hard to build a wood floor to hold up to the abuse unless you hand stack everything and don't want to run equipment on it. I believe asphalt would be better then concrete in the fact it is more porus allowing it to breath more yet there is enough asphalt in it to help keep most exterior moisture out. The downside to asphalt is that it doesn't hold up to equipment as well as concrete which would limit it to a pure storage building.