My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

[MessickFarmEqu]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Thats correct, but what he was pointing out was the 30 and 40 series grand L's use external 3pt lift cylinders, not the internal rock shaft setups. You'll find the parts and pieces on those are very different. The standard L's share some parts off the old grand 10 series.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Thanks for joining the discussion Messicks. No hostility directed to you but you just brought forward the essence of the frustration for many of us with Kubota and the L3400 and L2800....

The standard L's...

It's always a standard L until you drop 18K and realize your hitch is substandard. Then it's and "ECONOMY L"... check out Kubota web site:

Kubota Tractor Corporation | L Series Standard L2800 / L3400 / L4400

Messicks, do you think we can get L3010 hitch smoothness out of our L3400's and L2800's?

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Hmm. I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't the cylinder here that is the missing piece of the puzzle. dkf435 brought up an excellent point.

I'm certainly no expert in hydraulics maybe the flow is actually too fast on the L2800/L3400 for the 3 PT cylinder they have. I know with my remotes that I had to slow down the flow using 1/4" lines instead of 3/8" lines to get desirable smooth / fine grained control of my top and side link cylinders.

I'm not suggesting that we should slow down the flow the the 3 pt cylinder - because that would affect the capacity of the 3 pt. I'm just wondering if the cylinder itself is the weak link here and that a different cylinder might help.

I guess we won't know until you get your valve changed.

 

[Rockyridge]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

As you will see from my example, I am no expert on hydraulics either.
I wonder if it is the design of the valve itself, that it is either full open or completely closed, no gradual closing. I am not sure if this is a legitimate comparison but the example that comes to mind is the water fill control valve on a toilet tank. With the old style valve when it got closer to the full line where it would be completely closed they filled slower and slower until they shut off completely. The newer valves go from full open to completely shut off once they reach the fill line. That seems to be what is happening with our 3ph, completely open to closed, no gradual closing of the valve. If that is the case possibly replacing the valve with one that closes gradually may correct the problem.

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Rockyridge - if it was the 3pt valve itself then the same valve would not be able to result in smooth performance in the GL 3010 and the L3000. This is why Harvest discounted the theory that it is the valve itself.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Messicks, do you think we can get L3010 hitch smoothness out of our L3400's and L2800's?

You guys are charting new ground with this one. I've never had a customer complain about this, so its not somthing we've really dug into.

I do think there is merit to what was said about it getting too much flow. That should be an easy thing to tinker with. It won't hurt your capacity since you still have the same PSI. If the parts are the same as the L3010 than I don't see what else it could really be. Thats assuming that the 3010 does not have the same problem.

I've not seen anything along the lines of a soft close valve. Typicaly cusioning is done with hydraulic accumulators. I'm not an engineer though.

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Neil - Slightly off topic but related question for you.

What do you think is a ball park split between % of sales you guys do between the L2800/L3400 and GL3240?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

4-1 probably. The economey L takes more from the B3030/B7800 than they do from the L40's.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

If the L3010 has a larger bore, it would fill slower and probably correspond smoother performance... but I wonder, with a higher relief pressure, if the bore is larger and if it is, how much larger could it be?

The L3010 uses the same rod so the stroke would probably be the same.

I'm still thinking there's got to be a reason for the extra spring in the LSV, mine lowers smooth as silk at any speed with out the extra spring.

It's very likely that this spring does something but maybe not as much as I hope. If canoetrpr is right, maybe we'll only see a 10% improvement.

One thing that isn't in debate and that is the original jerky PCV is much worse than the L3010 PCV. Your all welcome to interpret for yourselves and invited to comment but to me it looks like the difference really boils down to two springs. If that's the case, then what else can we conclude but that the LSV with the spring will help too? So long as it fits?

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Wow! I didn't realize that the Grand L sales were so much fewer than the B series.

Makes sense that the Economy L really take from the B7800/B3030. I was looking at the B7800 myself when I realized that the L3400 made much more sense for me.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I say Kubota cut corners on both these valves to make the L3400 perform inferior to the Grand L. When the complaints started to hurt sales or caused too many repairs/upgrades, Kubota started incorporating the Grand L PCV in the L3400 to improve the situation.

When the economy started to fault for 2008 and fears Grand L sales would drop off in favor of the "economy" tractors.. and everyone forgot about the bad valves, Kubota started reincorporating bad valves into the L3400's to maintain a stronger product differentiation and encourage up-sells.

The B3030 too. Smaller but still an up-sell, and benefits from the product differentiation just as much. If people are considering a B3030 but want to save $1000 and get a bit more machine, they can get the L3400... but if they want a hitch they can grade with and use a post hole digger, then they have to reconsider the B3030 or go up to a Grand L.

The difference in price for the LSV, retail, is less than $20. Kubota couldn't have saved more than $2 per tractor by skipping the spring. It's about product differentiation. Maybe the LSV change won't work but it's hard not to see the differentiation with the L3400, 2008 PCV's.

In the case of the B7800, the L3400 is the up-sell.

 

[teg]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/members/harvest-moon.htmlHarvest Moon, Very well put...

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Harvest, the only problem I see with your theory is that I have yet to meet or hear about a Kubota salesperson or sales brochure that actually talks about the smoother 3PT hitch between the economy L and the Grand L.

Honestly I think that there is more than enough there in the Grand L to upsell - particularly with the 40 series. Wish I had gone the Grand L route myself given the higher capacities and so on although HST+ was not there back then on the 30 series.

The 3PT jerkyness .... just confuses me why this would exist and that they would go back to a valve that was jerkier. It must be what Neil says - which is that most people, outside of this site, seem not to notice or complain. I think that it is odd ... but I can't see why else they would keep doing it.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Yeah, I'm confused about that myself.

I really feel that it's on purpose for differentiation because the sell out on quality and reputation can't be worth the very few $$'s they cut. Why start putting bad valves back in the tractors after the problem was improved? Maybe they don't have to point it out to make the differentiation, people just expect the Grands to have smooth hitches.

The Grand L has lots of great features... most are not essentials. The hitch is essential to most. People that would never upgrade for a digital display would upgrade for a better hitch. Some people don't need the extra capacity.

But I don't have a strong answer for that question.. unless they don't want to call attention to how bad the hitch actually performs and they are counting on us to do it for them.

Probably has a lot to do with what Neil says. I mentioned this to my dealer but never took a stand on it. Actually for most of my 150+ hours it didn't interfere with what I needed to do. Just an irritation and I've gotten pretty good about over lifting and lowering smoothly to the position I want. I'm sure we've over dramatized it for most purposes. I bet most people just accept it and deal with it, especially for commercial use.

I am having fun trying to fix it though and I'll be really, REALLY happy with my machine if I can. A Grand L would be better but I think I'd need a bigger shed... heck, why stop there... I love those mini excavators! And a cab... that would rock!

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Yeah Kubota has needlessly dropped a bit of reputation on their handling of the 3 PT valve more than anything else. This is particularly true if that many customers don't complain about it. If I were them I would get i fixed properly for the customers that do.

Ah well! As it sits the 1/4 inching hitch is working reasonably well for my needs. It would be GREAT to see your project being successful. I'd love a smoother hitch but at the end of the day it would not substantially change what I can or cannot do with my tractor. I can do absolutely everything I need it to and I have done a bit of almost everything including drilling post holes just fine. I know I'd feel better if I had a smooth hitch though - if that makes any sense.

On that theory of the flow being too fast for this cylinder - I vaguely recall someone posting here who had changed to an over-the-self UDT compatible hydro fluid and he claimed that his hitch was quite smooth after that. I can't find that post though. I'm wondering if a fluid that does not flow as easily as the SUDT or Premium UDT stuff we have in our tractors is helping even things out a bit.

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I've actually pondered moving up to a Grand L 3240 or L 3540 or a used L3130 in the past. It just didn't make sense for a small irritant like the hitch.

After all was said and done, I would be out a few thousand on the deal even if I found a used Grand L in a private sale. Instead that $ would go a LONG way towards buying me a backhoe for the L3400 - which would dig some mighty big holes and be substantially more fun! and would overall give me much more capability than upgrading for the sake of it.

I'm also one of these guys that does not like to sell equipment/cars that I know do the job and don't have any issues. I could end up selling one used tractor - used exclusively by me from new - for another one and get a lemon that was abused by someone else. I'd be kicking myself then!

Of course I've also pondered getting a Grand L with a CAB but the $$$ just never ends... you get the picture.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I vaguely recall someone posting here who had changed to an over-the-self UDT compatible hydro fluid and he claimed that his hitch was quite smooth after that. I can't find that post though. I'm wondering if a fluid that does not flow as easily as the SUDT or Premium UDT stuff we have in our tractors is helping even things out a bit.

I remember that. There is probably something to a thicker fluid but I'd worry about how it would affect the HST. More recently jeconn's experience with his Father in Laws L3000 working smoothly in the cold morning but rougher at a warmer time supports this too.

Maybe there are other things we can do, as alluded to by Messick. Like you mentioned with the hoses... possibly reducing the flow through the main supply line to the hitch some how. Plan B, something to look into.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Wow! I didn't realize that the Grand L sales were so much fewer than the B series.

4-1 was standard L's vs L3240's... as you asked. For us we do about 3 B's to 2 L's... but thats a very regional thing.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

When the economy started to fault for 2008 and fears Grand L sales would drop off in favor of the "economy" tractors.. and everyone forgot about the bad valves, Kubota started reincorporating bad valves into the L3400's to maintain a stronger product differentiation and encourage up-sells.

Wow....! Okay. Lets take a step back. There is absolutly no conspiracy going on here over a few parts on a 3pt. Retooling a product is far, far more expensive than any incrimental cost savings. No one is trying to pull a fast one to save $20 on a tractor.

Maybe there are other things we can do, as alluded to by Messick. Like you mentioned with the hoses... possibly reducing the flow through the main supply line to the hitch some how. Plan B, something to look into.

I'm going to get outside my element a bit here, but I think the supply line to the 3pt is external on the tractor. It can be disconnected when a backhoe is installed to keep the operator from raming the 3pt though the backhoe. A quick souce on this would be the mounting kit instructions for the Woods backhoes, the install directions are all online.

 

[teg]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

It does seem like the 2008 models got a different valve (from say 2007) that makes it jerky again...