wind generator

[Lasgambler]

I have replaced the bulbs in the most used lamps to cfl's. I bought one dimmable spot for a can light in one of the halls that stays on most of the time. I am gradually replacing the Halogen Floods and Spots in about 20 can lights thoughout my home. Every little bit helps.
As mentioned before the cfl's are so much cooler, that alone makes them worth the price when you live in an area that can see 120 + degrees for days at a time. To each his own. I don't have a Kill-a-watt, I just trust what the package says for energy consumption. Terry

 

[Doc_Bob]

As mentioned before the cfl's are so much cooler, that alone makes them worth the price when you live in an area that can see 120 + degrees for days at a time.

A neighbor who installed CFL talks about how much cooler her small bathroom is since installing them. I agree. Much cooler on a hot day.
Bob

 

[john_bud]

Everyone talks about pay back with renewable energy (RE). I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Really wrong. Let me explain.
!

Actually, Return on Energy Invested is a better metric. It takes energy (co2 producing kind) to build, transport, install and maintain a wind generator. The total energy across the lifetime of the generator is higher than the energy needed to power the same devices / home. The total CO2 expelled to do the build, transport, install and maintain a wind generator is again HIGHER than the energy from the power company. Small scale distributed power generation is a horrible energy "investment" !

So why ever have one? It may be too expensive to plug in. 3RRL's house is a good example of initial investment to plug into the grid being high. I would use one at my hunting land for example.

PV cells are the same. But, the manufacture of them also uses some of the most deadly chemicals in existence. So they have more CO2 expelled and they also pollute! If you think corn ethanol is bad, have you thought about PV electricity? Do the math on the area the USA would need to dedicate to PV if we dumped all CO2 and nuke options. It's the size of the entire mid-west! Think about the price of food if we pave over the mid-west?

I use the squigglie bulbs and have dropped power bills. But I am also a hawk on turning stuff off (unlike a certain spouse of mine...). My bills have gone UP a little, but the service charge has gone up and the per kwh has doubled.


There is a book on "the falicy of efficiency" that I read last year. Every time EPA standards have gone up total gallons of fuel consumed have risen FASTER. It's the mentality that a good economy car is "so cheap" to run that it gets used a lot. The book also explains how government subsidies of the squiggle bulbs has cost huge amounts of energy. Why? It has slowed down the development of LED and other lower power bulbs. Can't compete against a "free" bulb!

If you want a "hoot!" look up how Al Gore's carbon credit trading has cost virgin rain forest. Why? To be able to sell the credits you have to plant eucaliptis trees. To plant them they clear cut rain forest! Thanks Al! You get rich and we lose biodiversity. Then again, what do you expect from a politician?

 

[Doc_Bob]

Actually, Return on Energy Invested is a better metric.

You are right, but most folks struggle with ROI, let alone ROE.
Bob

 

[tanglefoot]

I bought a Skystream 3.8 on a 70' tower. Installation was completed a month ago. It is grid-tied, so when the power is off at the pole, the turbine quits turning. On windy days I see the meter turning backwards at times. Our home normally averages 1200 KW usage per month over a year's time, and I'm expecting to get 400 KW from this machine. I don't think that happened in the month so far. I would not do it again if I had that option, but my main problems were in dealing with my installer.
Butch

 

[dillo99]

I believe high power LED is the future of lighting. Extremely long life and very low power consumption.Once Walmart starts selling 120V LED's (within 5 years i'll bet) for $6.99 nobody will be buying CF bulbs.

I bought some LED's from this place about 18 months ago (SUPER BRIGHT LEDS home). They were for some outdoor spot lights I have where the incandescent bulbs were burning out every two months or so - a real pain to replace and pretty pricey pin type spot lights. The LED's are awesome. The only downside is that they don't melt the snow! So my spot lights end up buried and they stay buried!

While I was at it I purchased a few other LED bulbs to try them. Definitely the future - once the cost comes down. It is too bad that so much is being invested in the florescents when LED's are clearly the better long term option.

 

[QRTRHRS]

PV cells are the same. But, the manufacture of them also uses some of the most deadly chemicals in existence. So they have more CO2 expelled and they also pollute! If you think corn ethanol is bad, have you thought about PV electricity? Do the math on the area the USA would need to dedicate to PV if we dumped all CO2 and nuke options. It's the size of the entire mid-west! Think about the price of food if we pave over the mid-west?

Absolutely! I worked in the semiconductor industry for twenty years with about fourteen of those in crystal growth and wafer fab, the rest in the clean rooms. The plant used some ~1400 different chemicals and compounds. This particular company actually invented and/or perfected many of the the processes. Along the way, not all of the side affects were known so there are/were some problems.

But then, why single out PV cells since the computer that I am typing this on along with our cell phones, LED lights, etc. etc. are all produced with the very same technology?

 

[EddieWalker]

John,

Might be time for that chill pill. We're just discussing personal observations here. I could care less what you do or believe. Seriously.

John and everyone else,

Sorry for this comment yesterday. I woke up this morning and felt bad about it. I know John was just making a point and I didn't need to be rude to him in return.

Eddie

 

[john_bud]

But then, why single out PV cells since the computer that I am typing this on along with our cell phones, LED lights, etc. etc. are all produced with the very same technology?

Well, I wasn't just singling out PV cells. But computers, cell phones etc aren't touted as solving all the earths energy issues and PV cells are.

Hey, I would LOVE IT if we could get solar cells to power our lives and heat our houses. (actually, I do use organically grown solar to heat the house .... wood)

If you really really really stop and think for a long while, you will see where some smarts can reduce energy waste. Here are some of my hair brained ideas, in no order

- Outlaw all vehicle colors other than glare white or polished metallic. Then less heat will be absorbed and less global warming
- Outlaw all home / building colors other than glare white or polished metallic for the same reasons.
- Mandate pavement color a bright white for the same reasons.
- Mandate a doubling or tripling of insulation in homes
- Mandate energy standards for appliances. Most people don't know that TV's are energy users about equal to a side by side fridge/freezer when they are OFF. True.
- Give tax breaks ( or tax penalties) for set back thermostats that are connected and programmed by satellite the way new clocks are. The government could easily mandate this and force the utilities to double or even 10x your rate if you didn't convert to a government programmed setback thermostat.
- Give tax breaks for riding a bike to work.
- Give tax breaks for moving closer to work to minimize or eliminate vehicular commutes

 

[jim_n_nh]

Eddie,
You have style and class for posting the apology.

Jim

 

[jim_n_nh]

I don't mean to steal the thread, so if there is enough interest we can spin off into another one.

The walls of my house are 6" sips and the roof is 8" sips. The foundation is poured concrete with 2 inches of solid insulation on the exterior. No air to air exchange as of yet. The woodstove produces more heat than we can use unless it is below zero and no sun. The exchanger cost about $2400 plus the electricity to run it. We just leave one window open in each room a little bit for air exchange. Currently with wood heat we are at 40% humidity in the home, it will drop to about 32% in march.

Jim

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

you can get a pretty simple heat exchange unit under $1000 that uses a shared 6" hole for intake/exhaust and just needs a wall grate for intake and a second one for exhaust - no major ductwork. If you're interested, PM me and I'll try to get info on it - I think it's a Broan.

 

[MossRoad]

...The LED's are awesome. The only downside is that they don't melt the snow! ...

My wife and I noticed that last winter, when, driving to work during a snow storm none of the stop lights were visible.... the snow stuck to them and they had been changed to LED bulbs over the summer.... kind of a safety hazard if you ask me.

 

[sodamo]

My experience. We live totally off-grid.

First we built a 640 sqft cabin as a place to live and store stuff while we built the real house. For power, I built a Solar, PV system with inverter and battery storage. Our 6 panel system was 730 watts and would average about 3kw/day. We do have wind and at least 4 neighbors have wind generators of various types. I had hoped that adding a 400 watt AirX would give me a little plus up, especially at night or during other periods of less sunshine. For the cost of the AirX, tower, wiring, I could have added 2 more PV (250watt) and been reasonable assured of generating another 1kw/day. My AirX never came close to producing that. In fact, it's production was never even measurable on my existing equipment in spite of the visibly glowing LED I could see at night. This was disappointing for 2 reasons: #1 - I knew what I'd lost by chosing the AirX instead of 2 PV, but even moreso, #2 - I had hoped a wind generator would be a good complement/backup for the big house. Someday, when I take that system off line, I'll have to find a new home for AirX or suck up the loss. The Pvs I can add to my other system.

The house we built is also a SIP system and we have R20, both walls (ProTec) and roof (Galvamet). Not a great concern as we have no HVAC, neither heat nor cooling. We do have reasoned cross ventilation, ceiling fans, and propane fireplaces. Nearly all lights are cfl or florescent. Most of the cfl are 9w. Many we bought on sale, all bought as original equipment, not replacements. So the ceiling fan fixtures have 4X9=36w vs 4x60=240w. We also practice lots of conservation, such as power strips and unplugging stuff.
The power system for the big house is 36 PV, 4.5 kw, inverters and battery storage. We currently use about 13kw/day, but know that will increase once everything is installed and we start up the pool. For backup, I added a 24kw diesel genset, which I've run 100.8 hrs over the last 18 months. Would prefer RE backup. Still looking at hydro option, but that's a different story. Had my above experience with wind been positive, I would consider it. Given that it appears a suitable wind generator w/tower would run about $20K initially, it doesn't seem feasible. Even if red diesel stays near the $5/gal level, that's 4000 gallons - 10 years worth at 1gal/day.

JMHO, but don't see grid tied wind combo as having much value, especially if there is no battery backup.

David

 

[Doc_Bob]

I bought a Skystream 3.8 on a 70' tower. Installation was completed a month ago. It is grid-tied, so when the power is off at the pole, the turbine quits turning.

Butch, please provide details!!! Wind speed, and pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

 

[QRTRHRS]

My experience. We live totally off-grid.

First we built a 640 sqft cabin as a place to live and store stuff while we built the real house. For power, I built a Solar, PV system with inverter and battery storage. Our 6 panel system was 730 watts and would average about 3kw/day. We do have wind and at least 4 neighbors have wind generators of various types. I had hoped that adding a 400 watt AirX would give me a little plus up, especially at night or during other periods of less sunshine. For the cost of the AirX, tower, wiring, I could have added 2 more PV (250watt) and been reasonable assured of generating another 1kw/day. My AirX never came close to producing that. In fact, it's production was never even measurable on my existing equipment in spite of the visibly glowing LED I could see at night. This was disappointing for 2 reasons: #1 - I knew what I'd lost by chosing the AirX instead of 2 PV, but even moreso, #2 - I had hoped a wind generator would be a good complement/backup for the big house. Someday, when I take that system off line, I'll have to find a new home for AirX or suck up the loss. The Pvs I can add to my other system.

The house we built is also a SIP system and we have R20, both walls (ProTec) and roof (Galvamet). Not a great concern as we have no HVAC, neither heat nor cooling. We do have reasoned cross ventilation, ceiling fans, and propane fireplaces. Nearly all lights are cfl or florescent. Most of the cfl are 9w. Many we bought on sale, all bought as original equipment, not replacements. So the ceiling fan fixtures have 4X9=36w vs 4x60=240w. We also practice lots of conservation, such as power strips and unplugging stuff.
The power system for the big house is 36 PV, 4.5 kw, inverters and battery storage. We currently use about 13kw/day, but know that will increase once everything is installed and we start up the pool. For backup, I added a 24kw diesel genset, which I've run 100.8 hrs over the last 18 months. Would prefer RE backup. Still looking at hydro option, but that's a different story. Had my above experience with wind been positive, I would consider it. Given that it appears a suitable wind generator w/tower would run about $20K initially, it doesn't seem feasible. Even if red diesel stays near the $5/gal level, that's 4000 gallons - 10 years worth at 1gal/day.

JMHO, but don't see grid tied wind combo as having much value, especially if there is no battery backup.

David

David, do you have any knowledge of your neighbors systems and results? As I said in my post on my experiance, we had a system that we installed that turned out to be rather problematic. My friend that owned the business did the best that he could to satisfy his customers with that system. The concept seemed solid but overall we felt that there were to many off the shelf components that just did not measure up. He certainly got stung as did the customers.

Your system did not perform to your expectations. Don't beat yourself up and thanks for sharing the info.

My point is, be it PV cells, wind, whatever, there are a lot of people trying to cash in on energy saving devices. PT is alive and well. Be very careful with your money.

 

[Pilot]

One of the factors anyone needs to consider when contemplating either a PV or wind system is that the sales people may say it's a 10KW system, but in reality it's only a 10KW system under the best conditions--when it's noon in the summer for the PV system or at the designed wind speed for the wind system. All other times, they produce something less, often a lot less or none at all. So how long does the sun stay at high noon, or what percentage of the time does the wind blow at the optimum speed?

OTOH, here is a low tech, low investment idea to consider. You put up a modest tower, & install a second hand generator. Wire that to coils in your furnace return air duct. When it's cold and the wind is blowing, turn on your fan in your forced air system to circulate the air and run it across the coils for a little low cost (you have to pay for the power to the blower) heat. It's not on the grid, it's not electrically tied to any electrical stuff in your house, it just goes from the generator to the coils, so there is no fancy equipment to make it fit into the grid. In the summer, tie the propeller down. No, I haven't tried it; it's just a pipe dream, but it just might save a few bucks and a little carbon. And no, it's not going to make a huge difference, but the ROI may be a lot better than the fancy systems.

 

[GarthH]

Were in a river valley so we would need a very tall tower. At work we have a crew that builds towers for wireless internet - the cost of a 125' tower including the base is usually around $80K. Our province is now using net metering so I could put back into the grid at the same cost as taking out of the grid. I still suspect the payback is over 25 years. Point well taken that maybe the payback is not the only measure.

We live beside a major river. I have always wondered if there is any lower generators that can run from hydro power - anyone know of anything? I'm sure the enviromental commands are huge when considering hydro but maybe there is a fish friendly units now made!

Garth

 

[HappyCPE]

If you really really really stop and think for a long while, you will see where some smarts can reduce energy waste. Here are some of my hair brained ideas, in no order

- Outlaw all vehicle colors other than glare white or polished metallic. Then less heat will be absorbed and less global warming
- Outlaw all home / building colors other than glare white or polished metallic for the same reasons.
- Mandate pavement color a bright white for the same reasons.
- Mandate a doubling or tripling of insulation in homes
- Mandate energy standards for appliances. Most people don't know that TV's are energy users about equal to a side by side fridge/freezer when they are OFF. True.
- Give tax breaks ( or tax penalties) for set back thermostats that are connected and programmed by satellite the way new clocks are. The government could easily mandate this and force the utilities to double or even 10x your rate if you didn't convert to a government programmed setback thermostat.
- Give tax breaks for riding a bike to work.
- Give tax breaks for moving closer to work to minimize or eliminate vehicular commutes

These are not hair-brained.
Many of your ideas have been espoused by the Green Building movement, and in a few areas, municipalities require all new construction having to attain a minimum rating issued by the US Green Building Council. So, many of your ideas have already become law!
USGBC: About USGBC

 

[tanglefoot]

Hi Doc,
I will post pictures as soon as I can. I expect to get a bill from my power company for my first full month with the turbine in operation. December, though, was a highly variable month for wind speed.
Butch