New Chevys

[Diamondpilot]

Well Kyle hope you like whatever you guys get. I don't think I tried to steer you one way or another but I would have to look back at all the post. Either way the GVWR on the Ford is higher but the truck is built a little stouter. My Short Bed F-250 extended cab weights more than my 2004 2500 GM weighed by 800# and the GM was a long bed. I would say that 800# to 900# difference between a Ford and GM is not uncommon on similar trucks but in reality the Ford will only haul maybe 500# more. This is mainly because the Ford shares a chassis for the F-250 all the way to the F-550 where the GM is only 2500-3500. The other thing is many of the components are much larger like the brakes, ect.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Not sure if its available on the 2008 but Ford is now offering a Electric Locking Rear Diff that is activated by pulling out the 4x4 Knob. The GM unit locks automatically and kicks out around 25 mph. From what I understand the Ford stays locked until you turn it off. Works just like the Nissian Titans.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Not sure if its available on the 2008 but Ford is now offering a Electric Locking Rear Diff that is activated by pulling out the 4x4 Knob. The GM unit locks automatically and kicks out around 25 mph. From what I understand the Ford stays locked until you turn it off. Works just like the Nissian Titans.

Chris

I heard only F-150

 

[Builder]

Well Kyle hope you like whatever you guys get. I don't think I tried to steer you one way or another but I would have to look back at all the post. Either way the GVWR on the Ford is higher but the truck is built a little stouter. My Short Bed F-250 extended cab weights more than my 2004 2500 GM weighed by 800# and the GM was a long bed. I would say that 800# to 900# difference between a Ford and GM is not uncommon on similar trucks but in reality the Ford will only haul maybe 500# more. This is mainly because the Ford shares a chassis for the F-250 all the way to the F-550 where the GM is only 2500-3500. The other thing is many of the components are much larger like the brakes, ect.

Chris

Main reasons for weight difference are cast iron heads and front differential on Ford versus Aluminum heads and front differential on GM. Personally I like the idea of aluminum's light weight weight/non rust efficiency over cast iron in those places.

The chassis is not the same on an F-550 as an F-250/350. The 550 has a thicker steel frame or a partially doubled frame.

How much larger are "much larger" brakes on the F-250?

Not trying to change the young man's mind or start a battle. Just trying to keep it somewhat "real".

 

[Diamondpilot]

The brakes on a 2008 F250 are about 9% bigger than a 2008 2500HD. I had a hard time getting much info on the GM trucks brakes but from the info I got this is the numbers I came up with.


Granted, the Ford is heavier, so the difference in brakes may not be that noticeable but it will add weight. I did find a shoot out where they loaded a Dodge, GM, and Ford 3500 series 4x4 Crew Cabs with diesels and a 9,100# mini-excavator on a 14K bumper pull trailer and did a 60 to 0 stop test. The Dodge was 3rd at 167' average, the GM was second at 155' average, and the Ford was first at 152' average. The GM and Ford were pretty close like I thought but the Dodge was a full car lengths worse.

Chris

 

[Builder]

The brakes on a 2008 F250 are about 9% bigger than a 2008 2500HD. I had a hard time getting much info on the GM trucks brakes but from the info I got this is the numbers I came up with.


Granted, the Ford is heavier, so the difference in brakes may not be that noticeable but it will add weight. I did find a shoot out where they loaded a Dodge, GM, and Ford 3500 series 4x4 Crew Cabs with diesels and a 9,100# mini-excavator on a 14K bumper pull trailer and did a 60 to 0 stop test. The Dodge was 3rd at 167' average, the GM was second at 155' average, and the Ford was first at 152' average. The GM and Ford were pretty close like I thought but the Dodge was a full car lengths worse.

Chris

Right. The Ford needs 9% bigger brakes because it probably weighs 10% more. That makes sense to me. But to say the Ford brakes are "much larger" is a bit misleading, D/P. Besides, brake size isn't the only factor. Quality of rotors, venting, brake pads may make a smaller brake out-perform a slightly bigger brake. Fords are notorious for warped rotors. My Ford rotors warped when I towed heavy with it and had to be replaced. That tells me Ford rotors are not that great.

I find a stopping distance difference of 3' based on a 155' to 152' negligable, barely even noticeable. That could be from 2 different drivers reactions more than the brakes themselves.

I guess the old trucker in me believes a truck is built around an excellent engine, transmission and a rear axle. Everything else, as long as it's adequate or better than adequate, is of secondary importance.

GM builds drivetrains for our military's vehicles like the Humvee and the Abrams tank and Ford does not. That goes a long way at demonstrating the capability GM has at building them.

 

[gemini5362]

this is becomeing a ford versus chevy posting. I expect the people defending their particular brand is not going to change. Personally I loved my old F350 i have It towed better than anything I have ever driven. The 460 CI engine gave more power than I needed to have. I did not however like the fuel mileage. My silverado gives better fuel mileage and since it is a all the bells and whistles on it truck. It is more fun to drive. I dont think it is a better truck just newer and more fun. I have found that actually my trailer brakes make a big difference on stopping power if I am towing a load. I would imagine that if you have three trucks with the same brake controller pulling the same trailer that you would not see much difference at all in brakeing distance

 

[Diamondpilot]

Right. The Ford needs 9% bigger brakes because it probably weighs 10% more. That makes sense to me. But to say the Ford brakes are "much larger" is a bit misleading, D/P. Besides, brake size isn't the only factor. Quality of rotors, venting, brake pads may make a smaller brake out-perform a slightly bigger brake. Fords are notorious for warped rotors. My Ford rotors warped when I towed heavy with it and had to be replaced. That tells me Ford rotors are not that great.

I find a stopping distance difference of 3' based on a 155' to 152' negligable, barely even noticeable. That could be from 2 different drivers reactions more than the brakes themselves.

I guess the old trucker in me believes a truck is built around an excellent engine, transmission and a rear axle. Everything else, as long as it's adequate or better than adequate, is of secondary importance.

GM builds drivetrains for our military's vehicles like the Humvee and the Abrams tank and Ford does not. That goes a long way at demonstrating the capability GM has at building them.

I think you are taking this the whole wrong way Builder. I was simply stating the Ford was 800# heavier than the GM and I gave a few reasons why, one being the larger brakes. You read into that the larger means better. I stated that the two were pretty close, like you said negligible, but the Dodge was not in the same class when it came to stopping.

I am not trying to sway this young mans decision. He seem to be on top of things as far as the research goes, I guess his dad gave him this job.

Chris

 

[Builder]

I think you are taking this the whole wrong way Builder. I was simply stating the Ford was 800# heavier than the GM and I gave a few reasons why, one being the larger brakes. You read into that the larger means better. I stated that the two were pretty close, like you said negligible, but the Dodge was not in the same class when it came to stopping.

I am not trying to sway this young mans decision. He seem to be on top of things as far as the research goes, I guess his dad gave him this job.

Chris

I'm just trying to put things into perspective, just like you are. I don't want another F vs C battle, either.

I think the kid is on top of things, too.

 

[Dargo]

IMO, the Allison transmission alone makes the GM worth 2 grand more than the Ford.

Good luck with the F-250!

Just in case the transmission is of some issue, I have not seen where the Allison transmission in the GM pickups have been any better than the Ford Torqshift at all. GM has everyone all going because of a huge campaign on hype and name recognition. Even though it's only by a small percentage, I've seen more issues with the Allison transmissions than the Torqshift transmissions. After seeing the statistics, I wouldn't give anything at all extra for the Allison transmission over the Torqshift. Both are actually very good transmissions but the Torqshift doesn't have the large crowds of people buying into the hype of a name.

Good luck with whatever you buy, but I certainly wouldn't let the transmission between the two make any difference in the decision unless you just have this burning desire to go around telling everyone "I've got an Allison". To be honest, it's pretty well exactly the same as Dodge "Does that have a Hemi?" sort of hype. It's a decent engine but certainly not worth all the hype.

 

[farmboy12]

Dargo-
It's not just that it's an Allison. But we do have an experience with a 6-speed Allison in out Monaco RV. But it does have an extra gear. Allison has a good name in big auto trucks. That's a name thing, but the fact that military trucks have them, show they're tough.


Kyle

 

[farmboy12]

Just to let ya'll know, Dad and I test drove the Ford today. It was my mistake, it wasn't XLT it's FX4, just lack of communication. That truck is BAD! We parked our Chevy next to it, and the thing had to be a good 4-5" taller. It has everything, but is still a work truck.

I forgot about the manual shift feature on the Allison, but I was aware of it. I didn't use it to compare, 'cause I figured Ford had it bad enough.


Kyle

 

[Builder]

Just to let ya'll know, Dad and I test drove the Ford today. It was my mistake, it wasn't XLT it's FX4, just lack of communication. That truck is BAD! We parked our Chevy next to it, and the thing had to be a good 4-5" taller. It has everything, but is still a work truck.

I forgot about the manual shift feature on the Allison, but I was aware of it. I didn't use it to compare, 'cause I figured Ford had it bad enough.


Kyle

What can you say, Kyle? If Ford uses Allison transmissions in their own brand of F-650/750 truck, that's the most sincere form of flattery there is.

I remember in the 80's when Ford used GM (Detroit) diesels and GM (Allison) transmissions.

It's called "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

 

[farmboy12]

Ya know, the larger Fords have Cummins AND Allisons. That's the best combo ever. The best selling Ford looks, GM's Allison, and Dodge's Cummins. The best of the best.

To tell you the truth, I really don't like the new GMC's. But, I truly beleive that the best styling truck EVER MADE would have to be the years they made them like Builder's GMC. Not yours in particular, but the years they made your truck. But if I may say so myself, both of your trucks are B-E-A-UTIFUL. But that's off subject.


Kyle

 

[Builder]

Ya know, the larger Fords have Cummins AND Allisons. That's the best combo ever.

I mean in the days before Ford used Cummins engines, they used Detroit (GM) diesel engines and Allison transmissions. The Cummins engines Ford used subsequent to that were indeed better, though.

The best selling Ford looks, GM's Allison, and Dodge's Cummins. The best of the best.

Just don't forget that GM 11.5" rear axle with the Eaton locker. IMO, it's the best rear axle ever put in a pickup.

To tell you the truth, I really don't like the new GMC's. But, I truly beleive that the best styling truck EVER MADE would have to be the years they made them like Builder's GMC. Not yours in particular, but the years they made your truck. But if I may say so myself, both of your trucks are B-E-A-UTIFUL. But that's off subject. Kyle

I don't like the looks of the new GM's as much, either, but "looks" won't get the work done. I agree that the "classic" HD was the peak of GM light truck styling. The interior is actually much nicer than the newer GM's, too. I like the looks of the 80's vintage Fords & GM's, too.

 

[farmboy12]

Yea Builder, just don't forget the late '70s - early '90s Dodges. They looked great on the outside, but have a very rough ride.


Kyle

 

[farmboy12]

When we test drove the truck last night, we took it home. Mom saw it, sat in it, and loved it. We've always wanted her to get a truck. So I was poking around, building King Ranch's in the F-150 and F-250. Another question to ask is- if they can put a 6 speed auto with tow/haul mode in the 150, why can't they make one in the larger trucks? Are they waiting for their upcoming 2010 changes?


Kyle

 

[Diamondpilot]

Hold on here but Builder is going to have a heart attack. Ford was actually the first Diesels with a 6 speed auto. It is the Torque Shift also know as the 5R110W introduce in 2003 model year SuperDutys with the 6.0 Diesel. Granted it only uses 5 gears at any given time but it is a 6 speed auto.

It only uses 5 speeds depending on if its in the tow/haul mode and also outside air temp. When its below 0 deg it will lock up the overdrive in 3rd gear then bypass 4th and 5th and go strait to 6th. So the shift pattern looks like this 1 2 3 3OD 6. Hot mode it skips 4th gear so the shift pattern looks like this 1 2 3 5 6

Here is some info:

TorqShift Transmission:

The 5R110W, or TorqShift, automatic transmission is a redesign of the E40D/4R100. Basically, the gear ratio for first gear was lowered from 2.71 : 1 to 3.09 : 1. To get second gear the overdrive clutch is engaged to give a ratio of 2.2 : 1. Third gear is now the same ratio as the old second gear, 1.54 : 1. The TorqShift is advertised as being a 5 speed automatic, when actually it has six forward speeds. On cold engine operation (below 0 degrees) the overdrive clutch is engaged in third gear for a ratio of 1.09 : 1. The transmission will shift directly to sixth from fourth and fifth is skipped. On a warm engine the shift pattern would be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th (direct drive), 6th.

Shift performance has been improved through completely redesigning the control valve bodies. The E4OD/4R100 used an electronic pressure control solenoid to adjust apply pressures to the clutches and band depending on load and throttle position. This would give you soft, slipping shifts on light acceleration and harsh shifts on hard acceleration. There was no feedback to the computer for EPC--it was also assumed that the EPC was operating as commanded.

There were two shift solenoids that would divert fluid flow to various shuttle valves to engage the clutches and band for each gear. There were also solenoids to control torque converter clutch and coast clutch operation. The problem with this design was having to time the disengagement and application of each apply component so as to not have too long of a lag between gears, or even worse, two gears applied at one time. There was also limited feedback to the computer as far as whether the components were operating as commanded, other than electrical faults. The computer could see if there was no RPM change at the shift points and set a code, but it could not determine if the problem was hydraulic or mechanical in nature.

On the TorqShift there are pressure control solenoids that directly control each hydraulic apply component with no shuttle valves. There is also pressure sensors to provide feedback so the computer knows whether it needs to increase current to a specifc solenoid to get the necessary hydraulic pressure, making each solenoid its own EPC. Since the computer is directly controlling and monitoring the hydraulic flow and pressure to each component, there are no lags between shifts and each shift is very positive without feeling harsh.

Another new feature on the TorqShift is the Tow/Haul mode. Unlike previous transmission models, this does not deactivate overdrive and immediately turn on the coast clutch. You still have all five active gears. Tow/Haul is a second transmission strategy in the computer. When activated, upshifts will occure at a higher road speed for a given accelerator position for better acceleration. Also, when releasing the accelerator on an upgrade, upshifting is delayed to prevent shift hunting.

The torque converter clutch will lock up at a lower vehicle speed for a given accelerator pedal position to provide improved transmission cooling. It will also stay locked longer on deceleration to provide engine braking. Engine braking is also provided on deceleration through the coast clutch. On the older transmissions EPC would always be minimal with the accelerator in the idle or coast position. This would result in slippage during deceleration on steep down grades, especially with a load. When the Tow/Haul mode is selected on the TorqShift, the computer commands sufficent pressure to the apply components to prevent this slippage.

Finally, to help maintain vehicle speed when desending a grade and help increase brake pad longevity, the transmission will downshift automatically. If the computer senses vehicle speed increase with the accelerator released, it will downshift to the next lowest gear. If vehicle speed continues to increase, the computer will command the transmission to downshift again. The grade braking downshift mode will be deactivated if the Tow/Haul mode is deactivated or the accelerator is depressed.

The TorqShift transmission uses a new fluid--Mercon SP. This is not interchangeable with Mercon (Dextron), Mercon V, or synthetic Mercon. Since there is no torque converter drain, servicing is ment to be done by automatic flush machine. The external filter--mounted on the cooler lines near the radiator--needs to be replaced at the service. Ford has no service interval for the internal pickup filter. I think it is a good idea to replace the internal filter at the service intervals as cheap insurance against a failure. There is a second transmission filter screen that is part of the valve body gasket, but it does not need to be replaced unless the transmission is being repaired. If a flush machine is not available, the trans pan does have a fluid drain. You can either drain and refill the transmision pan, start the engine to circulate the fluid, then drain and refill again. Or, drain and refill the pan, then remove the cooler return line and direct it to a drain pan. Start the engine and as fluid is expelled from the cooler line, add fluid to maintain the level in the pan. It may be more advantagious to have a someone helping you for this method. Replace the external filter after changing the fluid.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Thanks for the on-line owners manual on the Torqshift, but I've known the Torqslip had 6 gears, but only used 5 gears since they introduced it.

Doesn't matter if there's 18 gears in the slushbox. If you only use 5 at a given time, then it's a 5 speed.

Also doesn't have a manual shift feature.

And it isn't an allison 6 speed.....period.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Thanks for the on-line owners manual on the Torqshift, but I've known the Torqslip had 6 gears, but only used 5 gears since they introduced it.

Doesn't matter if there's 18 gears in the slushbox. If you only use 5 at a given time, then it's a 5 speed.

Also doesn't have a manual shift feature.

And it isn't an allison 6 speed.....period.

I know you know this Duane. I was just trying to give the kid all the info. He seems like a young man that likes to learn as much as he can so he can make a educated decision.

It does not need a manual shift feature because Ford has not abandoned manual trannys like GM. I wonder how many sales they have lost because of that bright idea. Granted the Allison is a great tranny but there are some die-hards that like banging gears.

Chris