Welding - Stick Vs Gasless MIG?

[alchemysa]

I'm pretty fed up with of my little $90 stick welder and I'm thinking of getting a Gas/Gasless MIG. I've never used MIG but I'm guessing I'll be using the cored gasless wire most of the time. So I'm wondering whats the difference in ease and quality of gasless MIG compared to ordinary stick welding. Do you still have to chip the slag off a gasless mig weld? If gasless mig is not all that much easier than stick welding then its probably not worth me moving up.

Thanks for any comments.

 

[irvingj]

I'm REALLY new to welding, but recently took a class (yeah, big deal, but I know more now than I did...). There are some real experts on TBN who will add their expertise soon, I'm sure.

In my limited experience, the flux-core wire feed welders (gasless MIG) are pretty convenient, but they splatter a LOT, making a weld that's not very good looking (but can be chipped off & ground down). The gas-fed wire feeds (true MIGs) made a much smoother weld, and to me just seemed to be easier to get a good weld with. On both machines, experimentation with power & wire feed speed are really necessary- experiment first.

During our class we also used stick welders; some were very troublesome to get & hold an arc, which made for poor welds, but there were 2 machines that seemed to work MUCH better, on the same material-- so I guess not all stick welders are created equal-- I'm also guessing that $$ pretty well equals quality here.

Well-- that's my half-cent worth; let's wait for the pros to chime in.

 

[Jeepnford]

I'd say it depends on what most of your usage will be. If you're welding mostly thicker steel,stick would be fine. If you want the ability to weld down to sheet metal I think a 220 V MIG with infinite controls would be good. Stick is a little more tolerant of dirty(to a point)steel. Gasless MIG requires about the same amount of cleanup as stick if not more. Personally, the only time I would use flux cored wire would be welding outdoors. Whatever you decide buy a quality machine,DC + and - for stick. Also with MIG,if you want you can weld aluminum.

 

[mbohuntr]

I don't make a living at it anymore, but IMHO, the last poster pretty much said it. you can't judge stick welding using a $90 machine. Just as a $90 mig will give you similar results. Stick welders like DC better than AC, you get a much more stable arc, and scratch starting is much easier. Find a buddy with a nice machine and try it.... Mig is easier to learn, but can be tough on light sheet metal, and rusty metal. Each has it's areas. For the beginner/homeowner, you might be building a 3/8" square tube frame one day but trying to weld a cracked deck on your lawnmower the next. MIG does not like thick or rusty metal. Yes, I've welded everything from 24 guage to 1-1/4 plate with mig, but that wasn't a tractor supply machine either. that machine had a high duty cycle, and would switch from .030 hard wire to .045 fluxcore in about 10 minutes. Then you have the issue of preheating heavy steel. If you don't, the mig will lay on top of the metal and literally fall off. Try this first... the rod determines the amperage, a 1/16" rod will need around 60 amps as a starting point (1/16 = 1 divided by 16), 1/8" = 1 divided by 8, or 125 amps this gives you a very general start point. 6010/6011 rod is likely the best choice to start with. It is a great penetrating ,all position rod that is forgiving. you are going to strike an arc, angle the rod so it is leading the weld and pointing back into it like this ........../ now keep the arc length to about 1/8 to 1/4" high. move the rod like you are going forward about 3/4", and dragging a penny back into the puddle. Pause at the puddle and watch the metal form the new puddle , then repeat. like this (((((((((((((/ drag-pause, drag-pause, drag pause... If the rod is too hot and orange, turn it down, if it sticks a lot, and won't keep an arc, turn it up... If you are burning through, turn down and move faster. There are dozens of rods for dozens of jobs, that's why I like stick.

 

[mbohuntr]

OHHH, You can also attach a TIG unit to a nice stick unit, Your gonna LOVE that! "bout the only thing you probably can't do is aluminum, And I'm not sure about that...You need AC and high frequency for that.

 

[kenmac]

Depends on the project. Sometimes I use stick, Other times I use mig. With my mig, I always use gas

 

[4shorts]

I have just about every type of welding machine there is to have because it's part of my work and if there was a fire in the shop and I had only enough time to take one welding machine out it would be the Mig. Just love that machine. It's used 90 % off the time over the rest but it will never replace the stick welder. My opinion, nothing will and it will always have a place in the welding world.

 

[patrick_g]

I have a Lincoln Weld Pak 100 MIG (120 VAC) which came set up to use gas or flux core. I have never used gas with it, just flux core. I just love it. I have had it for over 10 years (don't remember when I bought it at a big box store.) I abuse the heck out of it and it just keeps on welding. It outperforms the el cheapo brand X units by a recognizable margin. When I have to weld serious stuff, say 1/4 inch or thicker or need more heat and penetration I use my Lincoln AC/DC "Tombstone" stick welder. I really don't need more power than the tombstone can deliver.

It is a shame but too often folks buy the bargain crap brand X machines and when they perform poorly decide welding isn't so neat or they can't weld or whatever when they could probably do OK with a decent machine and a little instruction. Welding just isn't all that difficult and doesn't require superhuman abilities. Sure there will be a wide spectrum of abilities but nearly anyone can be taught to weld mild steel acceptably, especially down hand.

Atwoods recently started selling a small welder (how small is it???) It is smaller than a toaster. I wonder how many people will plop down the $100 and find out GEE, I guess I can't weld.

Pat

 

[flusher]

I'm pretty fed up with of my little $90 stick welder and I'm thinking of getting a Gas/Gasless MIG. I've never used MIG but I'm guessing I'll be using the cored gasless wire most of the time. So I'm wondering whats the difference in ease and quality of gasless MIG compared to ordinary stick welding. Do you still have to chip the slag off a gasless mig weld? If gasless mig is not all that much easier than stick welding then its probably not worth me moving up.

Thanks for any comments.

I got rid of my Harbor Freight $100 AC/DC stick welder and stepped up to a $400 Hobart LX AC/DC unit. Big improvement!!! Mostly weld 6011 DC+. No problem once you're able to hold a steady gap. Go slow, watch the puddle and you'll get good welds.

Thinking about learning MIG welding. It's supposed to be easier than stick. We'll see.

 

[jgrreed]

Question for the experienced....

I'm going to start to learn to weld soon, and I'm really excited about it. I'm not the type of guy to 'cheap out', and I like to have capable and reliable equipment. I know I'll start with the easy stuff, but can see myself doing heavier stuff (implements, etc) soon.

What would your suggestion be for brand (I know Lincoln is a good name) and model or capacity of a MIG??

What about a plasma cutter?? From the bit of reading I've done I was thinking a 40A cutter, cause it'll cut up to 1" poorly, and 1/2" nicely. I thought those were reasonable limits for a home setup.

-Jer.

 

[3RRL]

OHHH, You can also attach a TIG unit to a nice stick unit, Your gonna LOVE that! "bout the only thing you probably can't do is aluminum, And I'm not sure about that...You need AC and high frequency for that.

My TIG welder has AC and DC stick ability. It's a Miller APB330.
Your description above on stick welding is excellent and that's how I learned too. I find I too use my stick (either AC or DC) to do most, if not all my tractor welding projects. It's just to easy not to use. The only welder I don't have is a MIG, so I have no experience with it. In a different life, I was certified on TIG for plastic injection mold welding. But I really like the stick welders for most of my projects since most materials I use are a minimum of 1/4" and much thicker.
But this topic has come up many times so determine what you want to do mostly and get the appropriate tool for that.

 

[mbohuntr]

I'd stick with Hobart and lincoln as they are the best known and reliable. A machine can be sized by what you need it for. (DUTY CYCLE... the amount of time a machine can put out at full power.)I worked at a shop where they did a lot of sheet metal work, and the machines seldom got overworked. Now when he wanted to weld up an aluminum platform with a spool gun, that poor machine puked. He had an older lincoln TIG setup collecting dust in the corner that no-one knew how to use. He bought it at an auction and never tried to learn how it worked. We fired it up and I ran some stainless and aluminum beads to show him. I think he nearly fainted. A gas MIG is sweet for sheet metal and light guages as it's easy to learn, and QUICK. If you plan on aluminum, get a bigger machine with a bigger duty cycle. For the heavy stuff and delicate sheetmetal/stainless where weld appearance is important, I'd get a good AC/DC stick and save my money for a TIG add-on. If you need high production with light metal, you can use everdure (a brass/bronze alloy used with TIG) It is strong, and never rusts.

 

[wushaw]

I'm pretty fed up with of my little $90 stick welder and I'm thinking of getting a Gas/Gasless MIG. I've never used MIG but I'm guessing I'll be using the cored gasless wire most of the time. So I'm wondering whats the difference in ease and quality of gasless MIG compared to ordinary stick welding. Do you still have to chip the slag off a gasless mig weld? If gasless mig is not all that much easier than stick welding then its probably not worth me moving up.

Thanks for any comments.

Any flux core welding will have you removing slag.
A AC/DC stick would be an upgrade from what you have, DC is easier to weld with but the clean up is still there.

 

[wushaw]

Question for the experienced....

I'm going to start to learn to weld soon, and I'm really excited about it. I'm not the type of guy to 'cheap out', and I like to have capable and reliable equipment. I know I'll start with the easy stuff, but can see myself doing heavier stuff (implements, etc) soon.

What would your suggestion be for brand (I know Lincoln is a good name) and model or capacity of a MIG??

What about a plasma cutter?? From the bit of reading I've done I was thinking a 40A cutter, cause it'll cut up to 1" poorly, and 1/2" nicely. I thought those were reasonable limits for a home setup.

-Jer.

Hobart HH187, HH210, Miller MM180 or (MM211 soon to be at a store near you). Thease are all portable 220v Mig machines. Hobart Welders, Miller - Welding Equipment - MIG/TIG/Stick Welders & Plasma Cutting for all the specs.
I don't know which Lincoln models to look at.
40a plasma is a good choice, Thermal Dynamics, Hypertherm, Miller, Hobart, Lincoln, Esab
All good choices.
Stay away from the Chinese stuff.

 

[patrick_g]

I have a 40 amp Hypertherm plasma and just love it. GIVE IT DRY AIR!!!

I have a small MIG that is very handy but it does not replace my AC/DC Lincoln.

Lincoln, Hobart, and Miller are all excellent NAMES in welding and may have good plasma cutters but... I sure do like the Hypertherm. I made the mistake of buying "just enough" plasma, or so I thought. I soon returned it to upgrade to the 40 amp which suits my needs so much better than a 20 amp unit. Better to have a little extra than not quite enough. The not quite enough approach was very frustrating. The Hypertherm (40 amp model) specs calls for a minimum of 6 CFM @90 PSI. There seems to be a capacity gap in easily available compressors. I ended up with a 10.x CFM @90 PSI as next after some 5.x models.

I have begun mounting or making carrying provisions for all my welders including the plasma and air compressor on a little 4x8 ft single axle trailer along with a 17,500 Watt generator to power it all. I was getting really tired of loading this stuff into various pickups or into various trailers and decided I would make a portable power and welding station on a trailer. Great idea, a little late in the grand scheme of things (boy how I could have used this sooner, years sooner) but still a good idea.

Pat

 

[jgrreed]

Thanks for the help guys.

Stupid Q, but if a welder will do 3/8" thick metal, does that mean that you can really do 3/4 if you can get to the other side of whatever it is you're welding??

-Jer.

 

[mbohuntr]

LOL!!! i never thought about it that way! No, it is a function of the heat and size of bead the welder will produce. That's why aluminum takes so much current to weld, it dissipates the heat so fast that your in danger of cold welds. You can only cheat by preheating with a torch just so much...

 

[patrick_g]

Thanks for the help guys.

Stupid Q, but if a welder will do 3/8" thick metal, does that mean that you can really do 3/4 if you can get to the other side of whatever it is you're welding??

-Jer.

Well... not really. The metal being welded wicks away heat. Thicker metal does it more. 3/4 metal will be harder to get good fusion than 3/8 even though you weld both sides. You may end up with too cold of a weld ON BOTH SIDES.

Of course there are lots of situations where welding both sides is the best way to proceed.

There are certain minimum fusion requirements which just can't be practically achieved no matter if you weld both sides, even with multiple passes if your available power is too low. My 120 volt Lincoln Lunchbox (Weld Pak 100 MIG) is rated for up to 1/4 inch mild steel. While it can do that, it takes care and patience and works better with more than a single pass.

Think of trying to hop up from one step to another with a hop height of 6 inches and a step height of 7 inches. No matter how many times you hop you don't make it to the next step. You either make the required minimum or you don't.

Pat

 

[flusher]

Thanks for the help guys.

Stupid Q, but if a welder will do 3/8" thick metal, does that mean that you can really do 3/4 if you can get to the other side of whatever it is you're welding??

-Jer.

For thick stuff like 3/4" you prepare the job by grinding bevels in the gap between the two pieces and then use multiple pass welds to fill up and crown the gap. Grinding and welding go hand in hand.

 

[JB4310]

Grinding and welding go hand in hand.

Oh I know that all to well,
I've got a Hobart handler 110 MiG, never tried it with out the gas, I thought that's the reason for MIG, (gas shielding). Found an old thunderbolt AC on the side of the road 30 years ago that I still use most. Went and bought a Honda powered 170 amp dc welder cause everyone said DC was easy???
How do you Guys run your DC welders, electrode+ or E-?
E- is called straight polarity I believe, which sounds contradictory to ac welding, been told that's the way to go but didn't find it any easier.
I don't have much time on the DC machine so I guess I have to practice more.
Been considering a class in welding, would help me I'm sure.