SnowRidge
Elite Member
And that valve gumming, getting corroded, or having dirt under the seat will prevent the engine from running properly, but it will only affect one cylinder.
Prime new fuel injector pump?
- Thread starter Richard
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And that valve gumming, getting corroded, or having dirt under the seat will prevent the engine from running properly, but it will only affect one cylinder.
Willl
Elite Member
Richard, can you take a few pump close-ups and post them ?
OP
Richard
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I was and still am hoping this is sort of the reality. I cranked it enough that it took a fully charged 1 year old battery and essentially, ran it down to veryyyyyyyyyy weak.
Probably can't get back to it today but if I can, I'll try it again with injection lines attached to injectors (though I DID try that also, but maybe I wasn't patient enough.... I can't think though, that it would "cost" running through a charged battery in cranking to finally get fuel through?)
OP
Richard
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If you mean the injector pump, I'm unaware of any shutoff on it?? The throttle is open (as though the tractor would be running at full rpm's) if that is what you mean??
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Richard
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Will do, but not sure if I can do today...wife & honey doo list and all that kind of stuff
. Like right now as I'm typing... I'm sneaking away from dust mopping the hardwood floors in HER closet.... Pardon me while I re-adjust my maid outfit....Anyone like hairy legs?
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Richard
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Ok, I took some time out to get a couple pictures.
First picture is of the pump with the fuel lines to injectors attached.
As you can see by the state of shine.... this pump didn't originate off this tractor
the second picture shows the injectors. The top left circle is the fuel return line and you should be able to ascertain red fuel in there which tells me the pump is pumping SOMETHING??
First picture is of the pump with the fuel lines to injectors attached.
As you can see by the state of shine.... this pump didn't originate off this tractor
the second picture shows the injectors. The top left circle is the fuel return line and you should be able to ascertain red fuel in there which tells me the pump is pumping SOMETHING??
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SnowRidge
Elite Member
I think this service manual covers your machine. If so, there is good news and there is bad news. The good news is your injection system appears to be self bleeding. The bad news is the self bleeding isn't working.
Anyway, take a look and see if this book helps. It appears to be completely readable through the Google Books web site.
Anyway, take a look and see if this book helps. It appears to be completely readable through the Google Books web site.
OP
Richard
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This is an International 444. So far, I can't tell that this book covers it (slow modem is taking foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to download it all)
Aside from that, I DO know the only way to bleede this is to crack the injectors so I don't think this specific tractor is self bleeding, presuming that means one doesn't have to crack an injector.
I WILL look closer though and I'll see if I can poke around where you found that for a 444.
Tomorrow is getting close....those guys at the service shop don't know they've got a phone date with me in the morning
Aside from that, I DO know the only way to bleede this is to crack the injectors so I don't think this specific tractor is self bleeding, presuming that means one doesn't have to crack an injector.
I WILL look closer though and I'll see if I can poke around where you found that for a 444.
Tomorrow is getting close....those guys at the service shop don't know they've got a phone date with me in the morning
Willl
Elite Member
The end of this pump has a splined shaft, doesn't it ?
Was it splined so it would only fit one way ?
Reason I ask is if it isn't timed correctly, priming it now will be just for practise.
Any hoot, we need a good flow out #1 bleed screw with key off.
DO NOT crank with #1, #2 or any connection between injector pump and fuel tank open. All your going to do is suck in air.
If you can't get full flow from #1, work your way back to tank till fault is found.
Was it splined so it would only fit one way ?
Reason I ask is if it isn't timed correctly, priming it now will be just for practise.
Any hoot, we need a good flow out #1 bleed screw with key off.
DO NOT crank with #1, #2 or any connection between injector pump and fuel tank open. All your going to do is suck in air.
If you can't get full flow from #1, work your way back to tank till fault is found.
Last edited:
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Richard
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The drive shaft has more of what I'd call a keyway. It will only fit in side the drive head one way. It's a slot and pin kind of thing. IF it was out of time, then it would be (I suppose) only one rotation out of whack. The guys at the service shop told me this could NOT happen....that as long as the two were mated properly, there could be no mistiming.
to clarify your instructions above... would you suggest that I tighten down ALL the lines to the injectors or leave them open for a crack of air to bleed out?
I'm beginning to think from what you say, that I need to seal up the entire system and ONLY then, try to bleed that lower port. I'll admit that I do not think I've accomplished that specific goal. I think I've always had the connections at the injectors themselves cracked open (best case) all the way down to totally removed (worst case)
I'll have to give it a try tomorrow. Thanks
Willl
Elite Member
Install all your lines but leave them cracked open approx 1 turn at the injectors.
Hooked_on_HP
Veteran Member
Richard, you have to have the fuel lines connected to the pump before you will see any pressure. If you look at the lines, the hole is verry small and this helps the pump build pressure.
6sunset6
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My machine is running A lot of air in the lines combined with a weak battery (new). The mechanic had a few tricks . The big one was pulling off the secondary air filter , it's a can that sticks up in the air , and sticking a gas soaked rag in the hole. Engine kind of sputtered along , enough for him to know there was nothing broken inside. We bled the injector again, ran it on the gas rag a couple times more. then cracked an injector line up by the injector ran it on gas once more and then the other two cylinders started kicking. Closed up the first injector and it ran fine. Now it will take a week to get all the sheet metal back on. But now it is inside.
Mechanic said get a bigger battery type 30 he said. Also said the batt cable was too small. Took less than an hour. Best $85 I ever spent.
Mechanic said get a bigger battery type 30 he said. Also said the batt cable was too small. Took less than an hour. Best $85 I ever spent.
SnowRidge
Elite Member
Follow the procedures in that online manual I linked to. It shows the same pump. Note that it says the system should be self bleeding, but gives instructions on how to bleed it if the self bleeding part doesn't work.
If none of that works, then it is time to post some more.
If none of that works, then it is time to post some more.
OP
Richard
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This is getting annoying lol. (you all are getting annoyed with me & my problem! )
Called the diesel shop today and spoke to the guy who checked out our units. Some things that he said:
1. He checked our old unit and indeed, it was dead
2. He checked out the replacement unit and it checked out good on his bench.
On how to bleed
1. He said the lever which I was calling the 'choke' is actually the fuel shutoff. I double checked to make sure the cable wire allowed it to open fully (it does)
2. He said, loosen all lines at the injectors, loosen the LOWER bleed port. Turn over until I get squirts out the port, the squirts should then (evidently) move up to the open injector lines. I did this but don't know if the pressure I'm now getting at these lines is high enough (but at least I AM getting squirts there!!)
I didn't ask him about the upper bleed port on the top of the pump. Sooooooooo, here's my dumb question here...
Should I bleed the top port and if so...what am I looking for here, spurts? steady stream? low seepage? High pressure squirts?
Reason I ask is I'm getting essentially nothing but drool out of the top port. He DID say the other day that he completely ignores this port and I forgot to specifically pin him down on it today.
Though I didn't kill the battery, I suppose I used 50% of another battery charge (makes it about 3 1/2 battery charges of cranking the engine)
I HAVE made some progress though, in that I seem to at least, have SOMETHING squirting out the tips of the injector lines. Once I connect them, I even get what appears to be a higher pressure 'burst' every now and then. This higher pressure squirt is NOT every pulse.
I've cranked engine over with the threads tight, with the threads just barely cracked and with the threads (all on the line to the injectors connection) loosened a turn or more.
Nothing even seems to get me a backfire.
3. I reiterated my understanding to him that this machine can NOT be put out of time. As long as the pin on the pump is in the slot of the engine, it will automatically be timed to the engine.
Here's another question though about the above... let's say it's properly timed. Let's also remember...there is an alignment mark on the pump that is supposed to be aligned with a mark on the tractor (as I understand it). Right now, these two ARE aligned.
What however, if this mark (through wear & tear or other...) is actually slightly off and therefore, the timing is slightly off.
Would the engine at least sputter or smoke?
Would the fuel still be squirted into the engine, even though it's at the exhaust stroke and if it DID...would I at least get some smoke out the exhaust even though the engine might not be timed good enough to start?
Reason I'm asking is... if it IS slightly mistimed and bad enough to not START, if it should at least smoke, burp and otherwise ACT like it wants to do something... then it's clear that it's NOT doing that. (and I can look elsewhere perhaps). If on the other hand, it has to be timed EXACTLY for it to even smoke or fart, then I need to perhaps make extra sure this aligned mark is exactly and not off by a gnats nose.
I personally think there would PROBABLY be a bit of fudge room, but I don't know, hence the question!
I do want to say... I appreciates everyones help!
)Called the diesel shop today and spoke to the guy who checked out our units. Some things that he said:
1. He checked our old unit and indeed, it was dead
2. He checked out the replacement unit and it checked out good on his bench.
On how to bleed
1. He said the lever which I was calling the 'choke' is actually the fuel shutoff. I double checked to make sure the cable wire allowed it to open fully (it does)
2. He said, loosen all lines at the injectors, loosen the LOWER bleed port. Turn over until I get squirts out the port, the squirts should then (evidently) move up to the open injector lines. I did this but don't know if the pressure I'm now getting at these lines is high enough (but at least I AM getting squirts there!!)
I didn't ask him about the upper bleed port on the top of the pump. Sooooooooo, here's my dumb question here...
Should I bleed the top port and if so...what am I looking for here, spurts? steady stream? low seepage? High pressure squirts?
Reason I ask is I'm getting essentially nothing but drool out of the top port. He DID say the other day that he completely ignores this port and I forgot to specifically pin him down on it today.
Though I didn't kill the battery, I suppose I used 50% of another battery charge (makes it about 3 1/2 battery charges of cranking the engine)
I HAVE made some progress though, in that I seem to at least, have SOMETHING squirting out the tips of the injector lines. Once I connect them, I even get what appears to be a higher pressure 'burst' every now and then. This higher pressure squirt is NOT every pulse.
I've cranked engine over with the threads tight, with the threads just barely cracked and with the threads (all on the line to the injectors connection) loosened a turn or more.
Nothing even seems to get me a backfire.
3. I reiterated my understanding to him that this machine can NOT be put out of time. As long as the pin on the pump is in the slot of the engine, it will automatically be timed to the engine.
Here's another question though about the above... let's say it's properly timed. Let's also remember...there is an alignment mark on the pump that is supposed to be aligned with a mark on the tractor (as I understand it). Right now, these two ARE aligned.
What however, if this mark (through wear & tear or other...) is actually slightly off and therefore, the timing is slightly off.
Would the engine at least sputter or smoke?
Would the fuel still be squirted into the engine, even though it's at the exhaust stroke and if it DID...would I at least get some smoke out the exhaust even though the engine might not be timed good enough to start?
Reason I'm asking is... if it IS slightly mistimed and bad enough to not START, if it should at least smoke, burp and otherwise ACT like it wants to do something... then it's clear that it's NOT doing that. (and I can look elsewhere perhaps). If on the other hand, it has to be timed EXACTLY for it to even smoke or fart, then I need to perhaps make extra sure this aligned mark is exactly and not off by a gnats nose.
I personally think there would PROBABLY be a bit of fudge room, but I don't know, hence the question!
I do want to say... I appreciates everyones help!
6sunset6
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I had exactly the same problem I think. Massive amounts of air in the lines.
open lower bleed . Hand pump untill stream is clear pump some more to be sure. Close lower bleed, open upper bleed and repeat. Close upper bleed
crack one high pressure line at injector open nut one turm. Crank until it starts. 30 sec max at a time. Probably have to use jumper cables from a running engine. Or use the gas trick in my previous note
Picture is typical.
open lower bleed . Hand pump untill stream is clear pump some more to be sure. Close lower bleed, open upper bleed and repeat. Close upper bleed
crack one high pressure line at injector open nut one turm. Crank until it starts. 30 sec max at a time. Probably have to use jumper cables from a running engine. Or use the gas trick in my previous note
Picture is typical.
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SnowRidge
Elite Member
Richard says there is no lift pump on this system. It is gravity feed. He has nothing to hand pump.
I think it might be worthwhile to install a low pressure electric fuel pump between the tank and the injection pump, perhaps on a temporary basis. I also know of people who have used an outboard fuel line squeeze bulb for the same purpose.
Richard, you will not get any firing at all unless at least one injector line is not cracked open. The injectors will not open unless the line pressure is very high (well over 1,000 PSI) and there is no air in the system. That requires the lines be tight and all air bled out. If there is air in the line, it will just compress instead of the injector being forced to open. That is why you must bleed all air out of the system.
I think it might be worthwhile to install a low pressure electric fuel pump between the tank and the injection pump, perhaps on a temporary basis. I also know of people who have used an outboard fuel line squeeze bulb for the same purpose.
Richard, you will not get any firing at all unless at least one injector line is not cracked open. The injectors will not open unless the line pressure is very high (well over 1,000 PSI) and there is no air in the system. That requires the lines be tight and all air bled out. If there is air in the line, it will just compress instead of the injector being forced to open. That is why you must bleed all air out of the system.
crashz
Elite Member
Richard,
As to your timing question, yes if the timing marks are slightly out, the engine will still run. It may smoke more, have low power, start hard, but will run. If they are noticably off, it will at least pop and sputter.
I've had this problem before on an airbound diesel pickup. And last year my father had similar issues with a pump on an International TD15 and went through two used pumps before realizing the pumps were the problems. A rebuilt unit solved the problem.
This may sound strange, but most of my air bound diesel issues have involved very slight leaks on the lines for the tank to the injection pump. Even if they did not leak fuel, just enough air would be drawn into the system to cause the pump to be air bound. Check all of your hoses and clamps, especially the line between the pump input and and the fuel filter.
good luck and keep us posted!
As to your timing question, yes if the timing marks are slightly out, the engine will still run. It may smoke more, have low power, start hard, but will run. If they are noticably off, it will at least pop and sputter.
I've had this problem before on an airbound diesel pickup. And last year my father had similar issues with a pump on an International TD15 and went through two used pumps before realizing the pumps were the problems. A rebuilt unit solved the problem.
This may sound strange, but most of my air bound diesel issues have involved very slight leaks on the lines for the tank to the injection pump. Even if they did not leak fuel, just enough air would be drawn into the system to cause the pump to be air bound. Check all of your hoses and clamps, especially the line between the pump input and and the fuel filter.
good luck and keep us posted!
OP
Richard
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Well...we finally have the rest of the story.....
I can't tell you how many hours I've now fiddled with this thing. Today, I decided to hook it behind my backhoe and drag it up/down the road I live on. Logic being... if there is an air bubble in there, then maybe I can get the motor to spin faster, longer by pulling it, than trying to use the starter.
Dragged it one way...stopped (had friend on tractor) Gave him a can of ether and told him to give it a shot while dragging...he did so and the engine "lept to life" then of course, after the ether was gone, sputterred away and died...
Got home (in the rain I might add) and decided it was time to simply remove the injector pump because it simply was NOT putting out pressure. Yes, it was "spritzing" but nothing under any kind of pressure.
Remember this is gravity fed with no fuel sending pump? Now I've got to drain the entire 15 gallons out of the fuel tank so I don't dump it all over the place when I take the injection pump off. (doing so, I of course, made a mess)
While that was draining, I thought I'd go ahead and start to disassemble the pump from the tractor... I got all the lines off and took it off. I was preparing to set it down and just by some stupid reason, I took my fingers and rotated the drive head. Well... don't you know that the fuel came out under more pressure with a flick of my FINGERS than it had when it was connected to the tractor?!!!
Like I said before...I'm not a 'mechanic' but I AM mechanically inclined... my little voice said this should not be so!!
Soooooo, that actually caused me to feel better. I set the pump down (remebmer, this is in the rain)
my eyes then went to the drive unit.
If you recall...I had previously removed the pump to make sure the drive unit was working (it was) Something isn't right though...so I look closer.
The drive "pin" that fits into the actual head of the pump.... iS MISSING!!
The pump has NOTHING on the drive head actually driving it, OTHER than the film of oil on the head that mates up with the flat surface of the pump (I know that might not make sense...)
Put another way... put some grease on both your hands, take them flat together...palm to palm... and try to turn, 'with positive displacement' one hand relative to the other. Now try same thing BUT allow a finger of one hand to stick between fingers of the other hand as your drive pin. Under the latter deal, no matter how much grease is on your hands, your drive finger will lock the other hand up...
I was mystified... now I have to take the drive head on the tractor apart. You can be sure this has never been apart since the day this was made.
(remember, it was raining)
I took the 8 or so bolts out of this sandwiched piece and the front cover came off, exposing the gear drive to the pump.
What intrigued me was... under the gear, at the base of this housing...was a BOLT!! A loose bolt!!! This bolt does NOT fit anywhere that I can see.
The drive head that actually connects to and turns the driven head on the pump.... is a circle about 2 inches in diamater. There are three holes in it (non-threaded) and a fourth hole, much smaller in diamater.
I can see further into the front end of the tractor... I see MORE BOLTS!!
Ohhhhhhhh, this is getting very intersting... I get my long necked flex-magnet... pull them out.
I now have one 1/2" bolt in my hand, with threads and a star washer... I also have two 1/2" "bolts" but these are interesting... they are more like rounded "pins". The third item is maybe a 1/8" "pin"... I put the LITTLE pin into the tiny hole on the drive head and it won't fit.
I put the 1/2" bolts into the non threaded holes on the drive head and THEY won't fit.
I turn around and go from the fan belt side of the engine to the opposite side (where the injector pump actually slides into the holder) and try the little 1/8" pin there... voila... if fits like a charm.
I then realize that two of the three 1/2" bolts... are not "pins" but rather, the've been in the front of that gearbox for a LONGGGGGGGGGG time and have been worn down through a tumbling motion. They are actually bolts that have had the threads virtually sanded off.
I still do not know where they go, they clearly do NOT go anywhere in this housing.
I put the pump back on, just to see what would happen with the tractor powering this instead of my fingers. I didn't even attach any fuel lines (some already in it)
I cranked the starter and WATCH OUT!!!
There were some (small) sprays of fuel EVERYWHERE under pressure!!!
Knowing I had this problem licked, I put things back together and sure enough, the tractor starts & runs like a champ now.
Although I do not know the story on the three bolts, here is what I'm sure, happened to the actual drive pin.
As I previously tried to put the fuel pump into the drive slot... I jiggered it around a bit so the drive slot on it's head, would find the drive pin on the drive unit.
I'm sure that oil/grease probably found the pin...pulled it OUT and as I continued to jigger it around...the pin went THROUGH one of the three (non threaded) holes that are on the drive head, falling through to the OTHER side (fan belt side)
I interpreted this as the unit fitting and locked things up, not knowing that I had a flat drive surface, trying to drive a flat surface on the pump. It would in fact, turn the pump but I now realize, very very weakly. Because it was probalby turning the pump over once for every eight or so times, that it SHOULD have turned it over.
This well explains my comments about getting some sporadic spurts and that not making sense to me.
I got the tractor running, put the box blade on it and FINALLY got to move some rocks that were dumped onto my driveway 6 weeks ago. Oh... and did I tell you that it's been raining?
I'm soaking wet....covered in oil...covered in diesel...and covered in grease and ya know what? I don't care!!!
I finally got that bugger running!!
I can't tell you how many hours I've now fiddled with this thing. Today, I decided to hook it behind my backhoe and drag it up/down the road I live on. Logic being... if there is an air bubble in there, then maybe I can get the motor to spin faster, longer by pulling it, than trying to use the starter.
Dragged it one way...stopped (had friend on tractor) Gave him a can of ether and told him to give it a shot while dragging...he did so and the engine "lept to life" then of course, after the ether was gone, sputterred away and died...
Got home (in the rain I might add) and decided it was time to simply remove the injector pump because it simply was NOT putting out pressure. Yes, it was "spritzing" but nothing under any kind of pressure.
Remember this is gravity fed with no fuel sending pump? Now I've got to drain the entire 15 gallons out of the fuel tank so I don't dump it all over the place when I take the injection pump off.
(doing so, I of course, made a mess)While that was draining, I thought I'd go ahead and start to disassemble the pump from the tractor... I got all the lines off and took it off. I was preparing to set it down and just by some stupid reason, I took my fingers and rotated the drive head. Well... don't you know that the fuel came out under more pressure with a flick of my FINGERS than it had when it was connected to the tractor?!!!
Like I said before...I'm not a 'mechanic' but I AM mechanically inclined... my little voice said this should not be so!!
Soooooo, that actually caused me to feel better. I set the pump down (remebmer, this is in the rain)
my eyes then went to the drive unit.
If you recall...I had previously removed the pump to make sure the drive unit was working (it was) Something isn't right though...so I look closer.
The drive "pin" that fits into the actual head of the pump.... iS MISSING!!
The pump has NOTHING on the drive head actually driving it, OTHER than the film of oil on the head that mates up with the flat surface of the pump (I know that might not make sense...)
Put another way... put some grease on both your hands, take them flat together...palm to palm... and try to turn, 'with positive displacement' one hand relative to the other. Now try same thing BUT allow a finger of one hand to stick between fingers of the other hand as your drive pin. Under the latter deal, no matter how much grease is on your hands, your drive finger will lock the other hand up...
I was mystified... now I have to take the drive head on the tractor apart. You can be sure this has never been apart since the day this was made.
(remember, it was raining)
I took the 8 or so bolts out of this sandwiched piece and the front cover came off, exposing the gear drive to the pump.
What intrigued me was... under the gear, at the base of this housing...was a BOLT!! A loose bolt!!!
This bolt does NOT fit anywhere that I can see.The drive head that actually connects to and turns the driven head on the pump.... is a circle about 2 inches in diamater. There are three holes in it (non-threaded) and a fourth hole, much smaller in diamater.
I can see further into the front end of the tractor... I see MORE BOLTS!!
Ohhhhhhhh, this is getting very intersting... I get my long necked flex-magnet... pull them out.
I now have one 1/2" bolt in my hand, with threads and a star washer... I also have two 1/2" "bolts" but these are interesting... they are more like rounded "pins". The third item is maybe a 1/8" "pin"... I put the LITTLE pin into the tiny hole on the drive head and it won't fit.
I put the 1/2" bolts into the non threaded holes on the drive head and THEY won't fit.
I turn around and go from the fan belt side of the engine to the opposite side (where the injector pump actually slides into the holder) and try the little 1/8" pin there... voila... if fits like a charm.
I then realize that two of the three 1/2" bolts... are not "pins" but rather, the've been in the front of that gearbox for a LONGGGGGGGGGG time and have been worn down through a tumbling motion. They are actually bolts that have had the threads virtually sanded off.
I still do not know where they go, they clearly do NOT go anywhere in this housing.
I put the pump back on, just to see what would happen with the tractor powering this instead of my fingers. I didn't even attach any fuel lines (some already in it)
I cranked the starter and WATCH OUT!!!
There were some (small) sprays of fuel EVERYWHERE under pressure!!!
Knowing I had this problem licked, I put things back together and sure enough, the tractor starts & runs like a champ now.
Although I do not know the story on the three bolts, here is what I'm sure, happened to the actual drive pin.
As I previously tried to put the fuel pump into the drive slot... I jiggered it around a bit so the drive slot on it's head, would find the drive pin on the drive unit.
I'm sure that oil/grease probably found the pin...pulled it OUT and as I continued to jigger it around...the pin went THROUGH one of the three (non threaded) holes that are on the drive head, falling through to the OTHER side (fan belt side)
I interpreted this as the unit fitting and locked things up, not knowing that I had a flat drive surface, trying to drive a flat surface on the pump. It would in fact, turn the pump but I now realize, very very weakly. Because it was probalby turning the pump over once for every eight or so times, that it SHOULD have turned it over.
This well explains my comments about getting some sporadic spurts and that not making sense to me.
I got the tractor running, put the box blade on it and FINALLY got to move some rocks that were dumped onto my driveway 6 weeks ago. Oh... and did I tell you that it's been raining?
I'm soaking wet....covered in oil...covered in diesel...and covered in grease and ya know what? I don't care!!!
I finally got that bugger running!!
Hooked_on_HP
Veteran Member
I'm glad you finaly got it figured it out. I would however be concerned about the extra bolts. If it was me I would remove the oil pan and take a good look to see where they came from. It could prevent a lot of greif later on.
Bill
Bill
