Winter items to do on the tractor...

   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #21  
Bob Rip
I think you're right. If I ever do anything with this project, it will most likely be a 400 amp golf cart controller, a high-speed golf cart motor , and a 48V golf cart battery system. Lots of inefficiencies and fit problems to solve before I think of buying anything.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #22  
Why you want electric, anyway? Fumes bother the animals(and peoples, too)? Just curious. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #23  
Have you considered those electric scooters that PT makes. They should be able to pull a small cart.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #24  
<font color="red"> Why you want electric, anyway? </font>
Ever try to reason with horse people? Internal combustion engines are for outside only!
Electric is good - non-polluting - quiet
And if I really do it well, I can have something almost as good as a stock PT 180 for only a few thousand conversion charge. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #25  
<font color="red">those electric scooters that PT makes. </font>
I looked at them when I was there last. They look fine for getting around a level plant floor. Basically, they're one battery and a starter motor, so I suspect their real working time is minimal. I want a front-end muck bucket dumper that will dump into a trailer or pickup, and forks to carry 8 bales of hay at a time (350 or so lb.)
So far just some random thoughts and notes.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #26  
8 bales at a time...sounds like you have a barn full of hay burners! The PT has made my "horse work" much easier on my back!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #27  
Would you still use the hydraulics and have an electric motor drive the hydraulic pumps? This is probably the simpliest way, but there will be a fair amount of energy lost in the hydraulics.
Of course another approach would be an electric motor on each wheel and a separate motor for the other pumps. Or maybe one motor for the wheel pump and one for the steering and lift. I am not sure you would want to run the PTO on electrics. That takes upto about 15 hp. Would you care to describe how you are going to set this up.

Bob Rip
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #28  
This sounds like an interesting and possibly worthwhile project. I would keep the hydraulics and ditch the gas engine. The trick will be getting enough battery capacity in the room you have left over and I bet that's going to be pretty tough. The PT 180 will probably also end up weighing more than it did with the engine...which is good and bad.

Someone made a comparison to forklift batteries. Maybe MR? Anyhow, we used to run our high reach forklifts 24hrs. That required changing the batterypacks, which probably weighed about a ton. The forklift assisted with this by being able to hydraulically eject the pack, then you had to manually lift it off using what was basically an engine lift. Anyhow, the point is this: forklifts use a lot of cells in order to accomplish what they do. You need something smaller.

You need to work out calculations: find a motor that would drive the hydraulics, find out energy consumption, determine the required battery capacity. And then go through that again and again until you have something that would fit.

The next question would be: can you do this economically?
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #29  
The best batteries have about 4% as much energy as a comparable weight of gasoline. I do some design work on devices that use batteries, and they really limit your energy available. Ways to save energy that you would not bother with on an AC or engine powered device become very important when you run off batteries.

Good luck.
Bob Ripley
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #30  
<font color="red">The next question would be: can you do this economically? </font>
The answer to that, of course, is a resounding "NO!" But, that's not the objective. (It's hard to beat a small gas engine for power to weight and power to dollar ratios.)
My current thought is to use a high-speed golf cart motor driving the hydraulics for the wheels, lift and steering, and dispense with the PTO. An electric motor at each wheel would be more efficient, and a golf cart axle at each end with two drive motors is an option if a single controller would run both. Driving the hydraulics with one electric motor is simpler, since PT already has all the hydraulics sorted. Very rough computations say I should be able to get a couple of hours with a 12 HP golf cart motor, with a 250AH 48 volt 4-battery pack but that may be optimistic. There may be a small fork lift battery, but what I've seen so far are large, heavy and expensive.
I've not gone very far with real number crunching. Just winter speculating.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #31  
Can't resist a slight twist....why not convert your gas burning engine to propane. The very small fraction of noxious fumes (compared to gasoline) shouldn't bother your barn at all. I think quite a few warehouses and maybe even grocery stores still use it (but don't quote me on that). Also, the right muffler on it and the electric motor would sound as noisy.

Just to be a smart aleck, my twisted imagination also conjured an animatedly oversized windup key powering your indoor version. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #32  
<font color="red"> why not convert your gas burning engine to propane. </font>
Were it my barn, a gas engine would be fine. I'm only named on the deed. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #33  
Ahhh, I now understand!

Perhaps, the wind-up isn't so far fetched....can't risk a battery potentially leaking acid! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How about the first hydrogen fuel cell powered PT?! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #34  
Just a crazy idea, why not put the batteries in a trailer that has one wheel. The front of the trailer is tied to both sides of the back of the PT and the wheel is centered behind that. No trouble backing and plenty of room. Of couse the PT would be longer. Or maybe you only use the trailer if you are out on the property and have inboard batteries for the barn use. Just a crazy thought. Or mount the engine on the trailer for charging while in use.

Bob Rip
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #35  
Charlie, Just to throw another concept into the mix..... there is a all-electric tractor and ATV that has been around for quite awhile called the Gorilla. Not quite a PT-180 in terms of lift arms, but might be a power train that could be more easily adapted for your application. www.GorillaVehicles.com

www.BuggiesUnlimited.com and other outfits that cater to the "hopped up-golf cart" community have numerous higher speed and higher torque motors plus controllers and axle rebuild kits, etc that may be of interest as well.

BTW are you thinking of buying a new 180 and stripping it down or would you be looking at a used one perhaps with a blown engine? In any case it should not be too hard to extend the rear tub if needed.

Sounds like an interesting project in any event even if it never leaves the arm chair!

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to all!!!
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #36  
Rip:
Thanks for the link. The performance of the Gorilla suggests that if I don't go for speed, I can get reasonable power and work time. I'd figure a 48V system and a single motor as the easiest to do.
<font color="red"> BTW are you thinking of buying a new 180 and stripping it down or would you be looking at a used one perhaps with a blown engine? </font>
I'd love to find a used one with a blown engine, but I figure the chances of that are nil. Although not confirmed, Terry thought PT might sell me the basic machine without the engine, etc. I've not gotten beyond an idle inquiry. Terry also suggested some doubt that it would be a very useful machine. I'm sure they've explored it at PT, but I know better than to ask for condidential engineering info. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #37  
Seems like you could squeeze a lot of batteries in the area if you removed the gas engine, exhaust, muffler and gas tank. Not sure how the 180 is laid out. One electric motor to run the variable volume pump and another to run the lift/steering pump. You don't need a PTO for anything, do you? If so, I'd go for a third electric motor.

Have you thought about buying a carcass of a 180 and putting one electric motor at each corner? I wonder how you could get them to function without some sophisticated controllers though. You know how if you are standing still and rotate the steering wheel to the left and the front and back tires on the left roll toward each other while the tires on the right roll away from each other? How would you accomplish that motion with just electric motors at the wheels? How would you coordinate it if the unit was in motion? And most importantly, would you have brakes on electric motors if they had to free wheel, too. Seems you'd have to add brakes as well. I don't think you economically could do all that, so that means sticking with the hydraulic pump turned by an electric motor.

Then there's the question of how many pounds of batteries would you have to use to replace the HP of the gas engine and get a reasonable run time. Will the carcass of the 180 be able to support that much weight and still have a usefull capacity at the FEL? Will that joint that holds the two halves together be able to take the stress? Will the wheel motors be able to carry the weight? And what about hydraulic cooling? With an electric unit will you have to have an electric motor turning at 3600 RPM(or gear a shaft down to turn the pump at 3600RPM) constantly to supply the hydraulics, then use the treadle to control speed and direction? Or can you rig up something that senses treadle motion to kick in the electric motor at 3600 RPM. That seems like it would be hard to get smooth operation.

Whew! That's a lot of stuff to consider. I'm sure there's lots of stuff I missed and lots of stuff I don't understand the workings of. However, it just doesn't seem practical, but you already mentioned that part about horse people, and I have met a few. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If it were me, I'd just get a propane conversion. They are readily available. There were two that I was looking at for our 8HP generator. One was just a carb replacement and the other was a dual fuel conversion kit. I'd go for the full carb replacement kit. That way, you just switch carbs and add a supply line for the propane. Mount the propane tank on top of the engine hood somewhere and convert the gas tank to a sprayer tank for weeds around the barns.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #38  
Since MossRoad mentioned it too, I have to plug LP one more time:

Perhaps you just need to show her all the indoor applications it's been proven in and she might warm up to the thought of an LP engine for the barn.

Also, think of gas stoves (disclaimer: should not to be used continuously for potential CO build up; do as I say not as I do /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif). When the power was out for a week, we heated the house with the stove and a camp-cooker for 3 days (that's probably over 10 gallons) before we nabbed the FILs generator (primarily to get the furnace up, but between running low on lantern oil and not having a washboard to tame the laundry, it was even more desirable).

Barely tickled the CO meter
Ahhnd nnnnooooo othuuuur ssssssssside efffexxxxxxxx eethur. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #39  
<font color="red"> I have to plug LP one more time </font>
No disagreement here, but it's still noisy. I like the idea of quiet, if it can be done, and no muffler design can compete with electric.

If truth be told, the horse people aren't interested in any machine at all - it's just my compulsion to show them how much easier mucking stalls and hauling hay would be if they had a machine matched to the job - particularly a quiet, non-[plluting one.
 
   / Winter items to do on the tractor... #40  
<font color="red">Whew! That's a lot of stuff to consider. </font>

Enough so I can probably consider it until it's time to plow snow - or maybe until it's time to mow grass. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

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