Why SUDT???

[newbury]

<snip>
I've only every seen one private label oil that meets SUDT specs, and its about $15 cheaper for a 5-gal bucket. Whatever it is, I don't get the impression that they're exactly making a windfall on it.

Lately on the Forum where this should be taking place there were several posts about Chevron's clone.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/oil-fuel-lubricants/143437-sudt-udt-thf-story-5.html#post1712453

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/oil-fuel-lubricants/143437-sudt-udt-thf-story.html

Messick - could you share your knowledge of the private label oil?

My main concern is that I do not like being tied to 1 and only 1 supplier, especially when it seems that other options are viable.

I can understand requirements for "special fluids", I've got a 2009 Jetta TDI which requires a special engine oil spec.

But apparently there are many people buying new Kubota's only to find out they require special fluids ONLY sold by Kubota AND the dealer they purchased from does not have the fluids.

In the case of my diesel car many dealers have been found putting in the wrong, cheaper oil. Even though they carry the more expensive type. But at least it is available and from several labels. "What oil do I use?" READ FIRST BEFORE ASKING - TDIClub Forums

In the case of my diesel tractor I checked the oil, it was low, I needed a quart. NOONE I could find carries SUDT within a 45 minute, one way drive, so I was "forced" too either drive 1.5 hours to get a a quart or order mail order and pay shipping charges. UDT is carried at the local auto stores.

So bottom line was I ordered mail-order (5 gal.pail) from this place called Messicks and it took a day to get to me.

I'd like more options.

Plus Kubota's D$%^ stuff is transparent and hard to read on the stick.

 

[Hvytrkmech]

"There there baby, that man won't convince me to use anything but the good stuff in you." pat pat pat
The man ask a intelligent question and gets this silly post. Only opinions and no good answer.

get ready, here comes the explanation.

Fascinating...491 reads, 27 replies, not one empirical statement regarding the difference between SUDT and any other Hydralic Fluid.

Even the Kubota dealer that replied could not state what makes SUDT better than any other Hydr. Fluid.

I'm not asking these questions to pass judgement on anyone who purchases SUDT.

Simply wondering why SUDT is better? Hydr. Fluid is a very thin viscosity petroleum product. Unless I'm missing something the oil is not lubricating like a motor oil does.

So again...any empirical statements regrading why SUDT?

The fact that an owners manual states you should use it COULD just be simple marketing.

First off all oil is not the same, PERIOD. Kubota oil is designed and engineered by their engineers to their specifications. This holds true to virtually ALL lubricating fluids regardless of manufacturer. Kubota sets the spec for their fluids based on system requirements for performance, longevity, and reliability. Once the spec is set they solicit a manufacture who can build the oil from the ground up to meet their specifications. This all starts with the base stock oil, who or where has the best base stock available to make the foundation for the oil? What country or oil field has the most built in additives that meet the spec? Once a base oil is finally selected then the source for the additive package comes into play. Whom makes the additives needed to meet the spec? Lubrizol, Chevron? Then blending and testing come into play, once the product is shown to meet the requirements then the manufacturing comes in.

Most tractor supply branded oils are made by Citgo, they are the absolute worst lubricant manufacture on the planet. You could not give me a trailer load of there product. So keep running it.

SUDT is a multiviscosity , anti wear, extended service, multi function hydraulic fluid.


I am all for saving money where one can, and I practice it by purchasing the correct fluids for all my equipment.

I run Lubrication Engineers 10w30 CH rated oil in the engine year round. I use Lubrication engineers Monolec 703 80w90 gear oil in my front diff. I run Kubota SUDT in the hydro system, along with all Kubota filters.

1- Where did the base stock come from?
2- Where did the additive package come from, and who designed it?
3- Will the additive package and base stock work together to meet a specification or exceed it?
4- What group of oil is best suited to the application?
5- Some oils should never be interchanged. Some can be successfully interchanged.

I have yet to see any dealer that "I deal with" (car, truck, tractor) know anything even remotely close to the truth about lubricants.


So, in short, you are comparing apples to rocks. So keep eating the rocks, they are the same as apples.

 

[RayCo]

I think Tug Hill makes a good point. Does anyone really know why SUDT is better?

Without having an expertise in chemistry, no, probably no one here really KNOWS if/why it's better. So, without having all of the technical knowledge one must possess to truly know, it's best to go with what the manufacturer recommends. I am very much in the camp of thinking of it as cheap insurance.

If I were a fluids expert and had years and years of knowledge and experience, I very well might conclude on my own that it's not worth the expense. But, until then, I will not pretend to know more about it than the people who designed the transmission.

It certainly very well could be just a marketing decision for Kubota say "USE SUDT ONLY!!" But, that's not a coin I'm willing to toss.

 

[TUG HILL ADDICT]

So, in short, you are comparing apples to rocks. So keep eating the rocks, they are the same as apples.

Why the need for insults?

 

[Hvytrkmech]

Why the need for insults?

It was not meant as an insult, that's why I put the smiley face. Sorry.

 

[rdsaustintx]

What I've observed on several tractor forums over the course of 4 yrs is that SUDT has never caused any HST failures or problems and in most cases either eliminated or quieted the whine in an HST that previously used UDT and/or an aftermarket brand of a UDT equivalent.

There's your empirical data, Tug Hill. HST's run quieter with SUDT. That has been consistently reported by a huge number of owners.

 

[Ken45101]

Using anything but SUDT is becomming more of a risk all the time. Stuff like the RTV's and ZD's are very picky about their trans fluids and don't run as well with other stuff. The service intervals on the newer equipment are also speciflying SUDT only. The oil changes are now twice as long as what they had been when they okayed UDT or SUDT. If your not running SUDT, I'd be changing the transmission oil twice as often.

My RTV-900 manual says SUDT or UDT. I've used UDT for the first two changes since that's what I have sitting in the shed. I don't know, maybe it would have been quieter last winter if I used UDT, but I never noticed a problem.

 

[grossgary]

I'd say that HST fluid has a much harder job to do than an engine oil does.

Correct, oil is first and foremost a lubricant. It cheats as it has coolant to help it. HST fluid has a much wider range of functions - it's a coolant, lubricant, and hydraulic fluid.

 

[Bassicfun]

Interesting tidbit regarding warranty: because another VERY WELL KNOWN company for doing what may be deemed as similar (though not by me) is Harley Davidson. Talk about extreme mark-up!

A court case was heard and ruled on setting precident on this matter, of having to use a manufacturer consumable (engine oil in this case)... The court deemed that any (enter oil weight/viscosity here) is able to be used without voiding manufacturer warranty. The courts further ruled that if any manufacturer were to require a particular consumable (fluid) to be used to maintain their own specified warranty, that the manufacturer must provide the fluid to the owner at no cost.

I understand this is not the same as SUDT/UDT vs. other hydraulic oil debate, but I could see someone making the arguement that if you find a SUDT rated fluid, although performance may not be the same, it legally cannot void your warranty.

Search this link for "Magnuson Moss" HARLEY OIL DEBATE states essentially: "an OEM cannot require a consumer to use an OEM part or fluid in order to maintain warranty coverage unless that part or fluid is provided free of charge."

Before the flaming begins... I use SUDT, and plan to continue... I cannot speak to any differences between Kubota brand SUDT fluids, and other brand SUDT fluids, but my post is simply to ease the mind of someone thinking the 'fluid' would void any warranty on their valuable purchase.

 

[RayCo]

That is quite interesting, Bassicfun.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I understand this is not the same as SUDT/UDT vs. other hydraulic oil debate, but I could see someone making the arguement that if you find a SUDT rated fluid, although performance may not be the same, it legally cannot void your warranty.

The only fluid that I've seen that claims SUDT compatibiltiy is one from Amiel (sp?). If there are others I've not seen them. If we could be saving our customers a few bucks and offering the same performance you bet we'd be doing it.

 

[LBrown59]

Why switch fluid after warranty expires ?

 

[Ken45101]

The only fluid that I've seen that claims SUDT compatibiltiy is one from Amiel (sp?). If there are others I've not seen them. If we could be saving our customers a few bucks and offering the same performance you bet we'd be doing it.

Where does Kubota require SUDT and not UDT? I obviously don't know all the various Kubota units, but all of my manuals, under the "lubricants" section say "SUDT or UDT".

Yes, under the individual service section (e.g. 300 hour service), it says SUDT but also says "see the lubricants section" where it specifies either.

Ken

 

[grossgary]

Interesting tidbit regarding warranty: because another VERY WELL KNOWN company for doing what may be deemed as similar (though not by me) is Harley Davidson. Talk about extreme mark-up!

thanks for sharing, that is interesting indeed. i was going to mention HD here:

guarantee the upper level management knows the profits of this transition. Successful companies that have good branding can do this. Loyal customers and great products.

HD is the KING of branding that is what makes them a success and marketing types will study them in college, leadership, etc. doesn't surprise me to see these similarities.

 

[jesseb3@att.net]

I'll apologize in advance if this link has already been posted to this thread.
Kubota Super UDT Fluid

I was actually searching the Kubota forums for a graph that showed a poster's own testing. My memory is foggy on this, but I thought that someone on this forum actually had the means to perform the tests, and had done a comparison for us all. I'll be damned if I can find it though.

Jesse

 

[jesseb3@att.net]

For $12 you can buy a technical paper from SAE...

Title - Development of High-Performance Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid (Kubota Super-Udt) Establishing the Specification and New Test Method

Date Published: September 1997

Author(s): Nobushige Ichikawa - Kubota Tractor Corp

Development of High-Performance Transmission/Hydraulic Fluid (Kubota Super-Udt) Establishing the Specification and New Test Method

These excerpts from the abstract are interesting...

The recent trend has been toward higher-powered tractors to increase working efficiency, and automated transmission and hydro-electronic controlled mechanisms to promote improved operability, comfort and other amenities.

Tractor lubricating oil is a multipurpose oil that performs duties such as hydraulic control that operates the three-point link mechanism, hydrostatic transmission (HST), power shift transmission including gears, bearings and wet clutch, power steering, and wet disc brakes. To exhibit their performance efficiently with the same type of oil, the characteristics of the lubricating oil must be improved even more. In recent years, as the hydraulic control mechanism advances, the demand for performance improvements with emphasis on low-temperature fluidity and improved friction characteristics has been increasing.

So, this proves their goals were better low-temperature fluidity and lubricity than that of UDT.

Unfortunately, if someone buys the paper, it can't be shared on the forum.

Jesse

 

[jesseb3@att.net]

The charted results that I posted from the tractorsmart site are the same results that Kubota saw and published in the SAE whitepaper.

The whitepaper crudely illustrates their testing methods (pretty simple really). The most interesting parts were where they stated that existing oils, including UDT, did not perform as needed to prevent wear, corrosion (while sitting unused) and cold start performance. (Granted, most of us aren't starting at -30 deg C, but testing at those temperatures helps illustrate the delta in performance.)

It's a very short paper, but the egg heads at Kubota really seemed to have done the testing.

Jesse

 

[Taiser]

I can't even get SUDT up here, heard it's a problem to find in Canada as it's sold under some other label. I get some UDT fluid that has a stamp on the label saying it's accepted by Kubota for waranty though and it's what my dealer puts in all the machines. My HST does seem to whine a bit thought, but I've nothing to compare it too, so maybe it's normal. I'd like to try the SUDT if I could just to see if it quiets it down but I'm not due for a change for another 300 hrs, that's YEARS for me!

 

[BigD23]

"There there baby, that man won't convince me to use anything but the good stuff in you." pat pat pat
The man ask a intelligent question and gets this silly post. Only opinions and no good answer.

I go by/use the tractor's owners manual recommendation...It's not an opinion.

Don

 

[megaboz]

It is funny that this has been being debated this long. Oil that meet certain spefications is as good as oil that meets the same specifications, vecosity is a differnet animal. Synthetic verses dino oil, that is a different story. I know this is going to cause a stir, but oh well, it seems that this site is getting close to the point that all some of the people want to do is critize people for their decisions/questions. (and yes my spelling stinks)

I've known a guy that never changed his oil for a 150,000 miles. Sold the card when 5 years old or for $3000 (an old Tempo).

Now running an oil that wasn't designed for the job, or whom the manufacture doesn't say is compatible shouldn't be done in my opinion. But I have read on the label that the same oil that Sam's club sells will work in my BX 24.

I went to my dealer for the first change and to get the hydro oil, they gave me a bucket of the cheap crap for the BX specifically. I pout a 100 hours on the tractor, changed it, and put more in it. The oil that came out didn't look any different than when it in.

Marketing hype on oil is crazy. Personally after 700,000 miles of on the road with vehicles, I can't tell you that I ever noticed a difference with any of the oil's I have run. I do run the required certified oils or better. If the hydo oil is made to run in your tractor by the manufacture, and it breaks it will be there problem if it is oil related. Chances are that it will break, but it won't be because of the oil used, but because there was a weak part in the tractor.

As far as warranty goes, you will most likely be out of warranty before the first failure anyway, so I don't think that is much of a concern. Run the oils labeled for the equipment and you should be fine.