Why Don't My Posts Have Paragraphs?

[glennmac]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Ok, after the colon I will do one Control-M and one Control-Lid so. I will now do two Control-M's and two Control-L'sid so. I will now do two Enters:Did so. I will now do two Returnsid so. The Control-M's and the Returns both create line breaks. The Control-L's do nothing that I can see. The Enters print square boxes as if in a symbol font. I will now do two Control-L's, two Control-M's and two Returnsid so. Though I don't know why I'm doing this. Will now copy to Text Edit.

 

[Harv]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

<font color=blue><Ctrl>-M and <Ctrl>-L. Those two are the equivalent of Carriage return and line feed</font color=blue>

Ummm... that would give you carriage return and form feed.

Line feed is generated by <Ctrl>-J.

Okay, Glenn. Here's what I'm seeing --

Your return key results in a proper CR character, but a backslash (\) is being inserted in front of it. Your enter key generates an ETX character, which is just what it should do on a Mac. It's a non-displayable character which has no meaning to your browser. The box you see is the standard "undefined character" symbol (at least on a Mac), which is what should display for ETX.

The backslash is a common "escape" character, which means "take the next character literally, without interpretation". Somewhere along the line, I believe this is preventing your CR's from being converted to HTML line breaks (<br>). Muhammad would know where better than I.

So, the question is, where the heck are these backslashes coming from? Assuming it's not an artifact of the copy and paste process, is this a browser option I'm not familiar with? Which browser are you using? Maybe there's an OS X option that says to escape carriage returns?

And my final question to you, Glenn -- this isn't one of those "let's-keep-Harv-and-GlueGuy-awake-nights" pranks you love to play, is it? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

We're getting closer. Asymptotically.

 

[Gatorboy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Just an off-the-wall thought....Could the keyboard be a programmable type, that somehow got the Enter or Return key reprogrammed causing this problem?

If so, there should be some key sequence that resets the keyboard back to it's initial state.

 

[LazyK]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Harv...as an incurable pedant, I cannot help but compliment your use of the word, "asymptotically."The word-picture you draw with just this one geometric referent gives clarity to a paragraphically challenging discussion. Although I can't add to the subject being addressed, I felt compelled to recognize semantic excellence.

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Harv,

re: <CTRL>-M and <CTRL>-L. Right you are. That's what I get for calling that up from memory. The <CTRL>-L should have been a <CTRL>-J. My bad. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

re: Asymptotically /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

There you go again. I think we will have to give Harv the "big words award" once again. I (vaguely) remember this from geometry, but double-checked my Websters. This is what I got:

Main Entry: as·ymp·tote
Pronunciation: 'a-s&m(p)-"tOt
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from (assumed) New Latin asymptotus, from Greek asymptOtos not meeting, from a- + sympiptein to meet -- more at SYMPTOM
Date: 1656
: a straight line associated with a curve such that as a point moves along an infinite branch of the curve the distance from the point to the line approaches zero and the slope of the curve at the point approaches the slope of the line
- as·ymp·tot·ic /"a-s&m(p)-'tä-tik/ adjective
- as·ymp·tot·i·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

So what you mean to say, is that we are getting closer, but we may never reach a conclusion? I get the drift.... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Glenmac,

Harv's exactly right in his analysis. Your browser is inserting a "\" before every carriage return. So, even though the carriage returns are there, they are getting ignored.

My text editor shows this as your text:

\f0\fs24 \cf0 Ok, after the colon I will do one Control-M and one Control-L:\
Did so. I will now do two Control-M's and two Control-L's:\
\
Did so. I will now do two Enters:Did so. I will now do two Returns:\
\
Did so. The Control-M's and the Returns both create line breaks. The Control-L's do nothing that I can see. The Enters print square boxes as if in a symbol font. I will now do two Control-L's, two Control-M's and two Returns:\
\
\
\
Did so. Though I don't know why I'm doing this. Will now copy to Text Edit.}

Very curious.

Is there some setting in the browser that could cause this? What browser are you using?

 

[MDNick]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Yeah, I agree, your getting closer. But your never gonna get there, asymptotically. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[glennmac]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

At the risk of approaching the limits of my vocabulary, I assume Harv was speaking hyperbolically, not predictively, when he para-graphed asymptotically.

So you think its my browser or my operating system? My browser is IE 5.1 for Mac. The operating system is OS X 10.1.2.

If it is my browser, can I test this by trying to create carriage returns in private messages here or in posts on other forums? I get carriage returns in Word and my emails. Did they show up in my attached text message?

I posted this message, which again ignored my carriage returns, and then edited it, adding this sentence, to see if carriage returns might appear in the edited message, although I don't know whty it should.

 

[glennmac]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

HEY! None of those carriage returns showed up in the original post, but they showed up in the edit. What gives??????????

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

<font color=blue>What gives??????????</font color=blue>

I suspect that when you got through whatever processing is involved in editing the message, one of Muhammad's utilities ignores the escapes, and (in effect), puts back the carriage returns.

Maybe you should try the latest Netscape browser? I've seen some pretty good reviews of the 6.2(?) version.

 

[Harv]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

<font color=blue>None of those carriage returns showed up in the original post, but they showed up in the edit</font color=blue>

When you edit, your text appears inside a "text edit" box, which interprets the text directly.
Your final post gets interpreted by some magical TBN software which converts carriage returns to HTML line breaks (<br>). The current reigning theory is that the mysterious back-slashes are confusing the magic, so no line breaks get inserted.

I may have goofed up an email I sent to you where I described how to save the preview page as source (File menu / Save As..., then select Source or HTML Source from the popup). The idea here is to eliminate the Copy and Paste operations, since it is remotely possible that that could introduce artifacts, such as the back slashes.

The "asymptotic" remark was merely tangential to the hypotheses postulated thus far.

 

[glennmac]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Email? OK, got it. Sorry, I am phasing out my att.net account and havent been checking it. Will update my profile. Let me try your suggestions after I absorb them. Appreciate the help from you and GG. For this message, I have put no carriage returns in what I will call the text entry box (the first TBN box we see). Then, after Continue, I will put carriage returns after every sentence in this message in what I will call the text edit box to see what happens.

 

[BobT]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

glenmac & other mac users,

I do not now own and have never owned a Mac, and in fact have never used one. But in a few minutes of research on the Web I located the following information, which I believe may be relevant to the line break and text formatting issues affecting Mac users.

Compiled from various sources...

Text file format
The Macintosh, by default, creates "carriage returns" at the end of each line in a text file. In UNIX, a "line feed" is used to mark the end of each line in a text file. In DOS and Windows, both a "carriage return" and a "line feed" are used.

The TBN servers run under the UNIX operating system, and therefore expect a line feed at the end of each line in a text file. Since the Macintosh system uses only a carriage return at the end of each text line, and not a line feed, UNIX software (specifically that which runs the forum) is unable to distinguish between different lines in a Mac format text file (more precisely, it thinks the file contains one, extremely long "run-together" line).

This is not a problem for DOS and Windows files since they have the crucial line feed in addition to a carriage return; and UNIX generally ignores the carriage returns.

One solution would be to write messages outside of the text posting box on the forum. To create files in a format compatible with TBN services, write your message using a Mac word processor application, then use the "Save as UNIX Text" option in the program you use to create your text message. Or, if this is not available, use the "Save as DOS Text" option. In Microsoft Word, save as file type "Text with Line Feeds".

A number of TBN services may not operate quite correctly if a text file used by the service is saved in Macintosh format.

But Wait, There's More!

Arcane Issues of Line Breaks, Line Feeds & Carriage Returns (oh my!)

The three types of operating systems which are used to access TBN - Macintosh, UNIX, and Windows - each have a different method for terminating a line in a text file. The Mac uses a carriage return (\r, ASCII code 13), UNIX uses a line feed (\n, ASCII code 10), and the PC uses both (together). If you are viewing a text file that is just a few long lines, or if line breaks do not appear where you intended them to, then this is probably the reason.

A lot of text processors will recognize the different use and will translate transparently; some won't, especially older programs. You may need to try a "soft wrap" when viewing a text file; but, unless the file is purely for "human eyes" only, it is probably best not to change it by doing a "hard wrap" as this may change the way it is read by a program.

Macintosh Files
One more twist with Macintosh files. Pre-OS X, Macintosh files typically have both data and resource forks. This is not normally a problem for file transfer when both sides of the transfer want to transfer a file with two forks. Well, that's not always the case. You may want a file to open and by read on a Mac, but not knowing that, most users (being on Windows) will transfer a file with no resource fork. Sorry about that.

I found at least one program which is used to work around this problem.

The program "Char11ToReturn" changes Carriage Returns into char 11 (a bad rectangle char) to export the Carriage Returns which are in the fields, instead of letting them remain real Carriage Returns (char 13). This shareware converts, on the fly, the text file just exported, and sets all the chars 11 into real Carriage Returns. It's very, very fast and easy. Also scriptable by AppleScript. The package contains a FileMaker file sample, a Scripting Addition and an AppleScript sample. Char11ToReturn is not an AppleScript. It's a C++ application. Take a look and see if it is of use... <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.softobe.com/products/c11r/pp.html>http://www.softobe.com/products/c11r/pp.html</A> You certainly can find many references at Google to this "problem."


Now, having said all that, it amazes and distresses me that Mac and Windows and UNIX, **at this stage of the game**, CANNOT EVEN SHARE THE SIMPLEST FEW LINES OF TEXT. WHO IS RESPONSBILE for this idiotic state of affairs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure Muhammad will dig into the various issues from a server and browser perspective, and try to solve this. It should be fixable with relatively simple changes to the core code (famous last words).

In the meantime, I hope your mind is a bit more at rest knowing that these is indeed a cause behind the irrational action of your text, albeit an irrational cause.

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

<font color=blue>Now, having said all that, it amazes and distresses me that Mac and Windows and UNIX, **at this stage of the game**, CANNOT EVEN SHARE THE SIMPLEST FEW LINES OF TEXT. WHO IS RESPONSBILE for this idiotic state of affairs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font color=blue>

I have one answer for this: Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Scott McNealy, and roughly in the following proportions: Bill Gates, 95%; Steve Jobs 4%, Scott McNealy 1%.

I have been dealing with this issue for literally years. It actually goes beyond those three platforms in the work that I do, as I have dealt (still deal) with systems that use even more arcane methods of storing plain text.

I see it all the time in UNIX text files that have been edited on a PC. They get liberally sprinkled with a "^m" at the end of each line. That's because on UNIX the carriage return is garbage. For the reverse, taking a UNIX file to a PC, and using a "dumb" text editor, there is a little "blivit" where the line feed should be, and the text gets all run together. Part of the reason for this is that on a PC, the carriage return and line feed perform different functions. The carriage return puts the cursor back in column 1, and the line feed moves the cursor down one line.

It's not a big deal these days, as I only use editors that can "figure it out", and just do the right thing. This is OK most of the time, except when you use "sensitive" programs (make is a good example), where you need it in the native format. For that, I have a little utility program that will convert a text file of one format to another.

In fact, we use the utility in our build procedures. The build figures out which platform it's running on, converts the "sensitive" files to the platform native format (because our develpment process allows the files to be in either format (some people use PC's, some use UNIX boxes, and some use both), then runs the build. It's all quite arcane, but I just take it in stride anymore. I gave up on getting any concensus on this one, and moved on.

 

[Harv]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Bob -

Your research contains many truths, but not whole truths, so help me. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I feel compelled now to do more research myself (see what you've done to my weekend?), but for now let me say this about that:

<font color=blue>UNIX software (specifically that which runs the forum) is unable to distinguish between different lines in a Mac format text file (more precisely, it thinks the file contains one, extremely long "run-together" line). </font color=blue>

Kinda makes you wonder why you're seeing paragraphs right now, since I'm using a Mac.

Actually, UNIX simply interprets carriage-returns as carriage-returns. The "proper" way to start a new line is to move the cursor back to the beginning of the line (CR) and then down to the next line (LF). Text with carriage-returns only, just keeps overwriting itself on the same line. Text with line-feeds only skips to the next line right where it is (doesn't go back to the left side of the window).

What we're talking about here, though, is posting text messages through a browser, which introduces a whole new level of interpretation. My browser knows it's running on a Mac, and Muhammad's CGI scripts know that they are running on UNIX. When a message is posted from an HTML form on a Mac (or any platform), line breaks are properly converted before they come to rest on the server. When I get a chance, I'll find out exactly who/where/what does the conversion.

In short, browsers are designed to break down cross-platform barriers. Sometimes they even succeed.

<font color=blue>You may want a file to open and by read on a Mac, but not knowing that, most users (being on Windows) will transfer a file with no resource fork. Sorry about that. </font color=blue>

No need to apologize. When a Mac receives a file without a resource fork, it simply creates an empty one. For many file formats (like txt)), there is nothing of value in the resource fork anyway. When a file is transferred from a Mac to a non-Mac environment, the resource fork is simply stripped off. Have you noticed that even us Mac types successfully post attachments to our messages which are then viewed on Windows?

There are more and more cross-platform file formats showing up in the world these days. Even Micro$oft is doing it. When youse guys post a PDF or PowerPoint file, for example, us Mac folks can read it just fine.

Apple is very much aware that Macs are in the minority and have gone to great pains to make sure they can interact with the rest of the world. It is built into the operating system, for example, that DOS/Windows disks can be read on a Mac. It is for all these reasons that I am convinced that the problems that Glenn is experiencing is a simple (albeit elusive) configuration problem. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif

 

[BobT]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Harv,

Like I said, I think it is simply idiotic.

Here is more info, from MS Knowledgebas:

WD98: Saving File As Text with Line Breaks Excludes Line Feed (Q180265)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information in this article applies to:

Microsoft Word 98 , Macintosh Edition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SYMPTOMS
When you save a document in Word 98 Macintosh Edition as Text Only with Line Breaks or MS-DOS Text With Line Breaks, then open it on a VAX system or Bulletin Board Service, the paragraph marks that signify returns will appear, but there will be no line feed character. The text will appear as one long continuous string and will be unusable by the VAX or BBS.

CAUSE
The line feed character is not automatically inserted following a paragraph mark.

WORKAROUND
In Word 98 Macintosh Edition, save the document as Text Only With Line Breaks, Text With Layout, or MS-DOS Text With Line Breaks. To do this, follow these steps:

Save as Text Only with Line Breaks

On the File menu, click Save As.

In the Save File as Type box, scroll and select Text Only with Line Breaks.

Type a file name under "Save Current Document as," and then click Save.

Use the Replace command to find the paragraph marks (^13) and change them to a paragraph mark, line feed character, (^13^10) by doing the following:

On the Edit menu, click Replace.

In Find What, type ^13 , and in Replace With, type ^13^10 .

Click Replace All.

Then save the document as Text Only and transfer the file to the VAX or BBS by doing the following:

On the File menu, click Save As.

In the Save File As Type box, scroll and select Text Only, click Save.

See your administrator for instructions on uploading files to BBS.

STATUS
Microsoft has confirmed this to be a problem in the Microsoft products listed at the beginning of this article.

MORE INFORMATION
Most word processors on the Macintosh and Windows platform recognize a paragraph mark as an end of line mark and a line feed character. Text editors on the VAX or BBS do not automatically insert a line feed character when they see a paragraph mark. Most Unix mail systems require that there be no more than 256 characters before a carriage return. In order to keep files Word saved from exceeding that limitation, files should be saved in Text Only With Line Breaks format.

Line Feeds are ASCII value ^10 and are required by printers to trigger the mechanism to advance the paper. Paragraph marks, line breaks, and carriage returns are ASCII value ^13, the value that triggers the print head to RETURN to the left side of the CARRIAGE (thus the phrase "Carriage Return").

=====

There. Still, this should be resolved at the system level, and not require every board operator or progammer to hack their code to work around this problem. The entire intellectual premise of computers would demand that issues like this NOT even EXIST. Note to Gates Jobs, McNealy: GO JUMP IN THE LAKE!

 

[BobT]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

"I am convinced that the problems that Glenn is experiencing is a simple (albeit elusive) configuration problem."

I agree that is the liklihood. The BEST chance at resolution would be 1) Macintosh tech support; 2) a newsgroup that caters to Mac and browser issues.

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

BobT,

Harv summed it up quite well. He correctly points out that whatever format a system (be Mac, Unix, Windows, or BeOS) uses for native text files is probably irrelevant, since text coming in through a browser form (which is what you're entering the text into on TBN) never makes it to the local file system (or at least it shouldn't if things are working correctly). So the fact that the different file storage types doesn't really matter; regardless of how confusing it may or may not be.

So, my current guess is that Glenmac's browser is somehow, someway, escaping the CR's that he typing into the browser window. Don't know how, but that's what is happening.

Back to you Chet.

 

[glennmac]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Uhhhhhh............I think I'll go back to the speed of light thread......I do know that OS X is built on a UNIX core, if that has any relevance......I do know that I have the carriage return problem only on TBN, not on other forums ..... Any non-gobbledygookian practical suggestions for me?.........If I call up Jobs, what do I tell him--that something is inserting backslashes in my carriage returns?

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

The phrasing that I would use is:

"Text that I enter through the browser gets the carriage returns escaped"

The fact that OSX is UNIX (Mach actually, but we're splitting hairs), may have some relevance, but I don't know what; since an actual text file and/or editor is not getting involved.

BTW - Have you tried editing something in a regular text file, then copy/paste it into a TBN edit box? Just curious. If that works.... Hmmm.

 

[Muhammad]

Re: Why Don\'t My Posts Have Paragraphs?

Just as a note, we're looking into a code change to accommodate OS X... but it probably won't get done immediately.