Which implement for soil amelioration?

[Yamezz]

G'day. I'm looking for some advice on the best implement to use to improve my soil. I have deep, water-repellent sand with very low nutrient levels. I would like to spread a thin layer of clay and marc (grape skins and seeds from my winery) over the surface, then incorporate it somehow. Would I be better off with discs or a rotary hoe. My feeling is the rotary hoe would do a better job, but not mix as deep as discs.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

One word. TILLER.

To work soil at a sufficient depth, blend ammendments, get a good consistant mix, all in a minimum number of steps, nothing beats a tiller.

 

[jbrumberg]

Yamez:

Welcome to TBN ! I agree with Farmwithjunk. Jay

 

[richardbro]

You might want to look at a spader - like a tiller but completely different
Seems to be popular with grape/winery growers.

 

[Yamezz]

OK guys, thanks...
Farmwithjunk: I presume what you're calling a tiller is what we Aussies call a rotary hoe (even think it was an Australian invention)
Jbrumberg: Thanks. I've been lurking around here for a while absorbing everyone's knowledge
Richardbro: That spader looks interesting, but I've never seen one here. It seems it would require a little more horsepower than my X495 can muster up!

 

[jbrumberg]

I never knew power spaders existed until I read about them about a year ago. It appears they function more like manual spading, do not compact the soil or damage the soil structure as much as a tiller, and can incorporate large amounts of organic plant material into dry and compacted soil. I have never seen one either. Jay

 

[Farmwithjunk]

OK guys, thanks...
Farmwithjunk: I presume what you're calling a tiller is what we Aussies call a rotary hoe (even think it was an Australian invention)
Jbrumberg: Thanks. I've been lurking around here for a while absorbing everyone's knowledge
Richardbro: That spader looks interesting, but I've never seen one here. It seems it would require a little more horsepower than my X495 can muster up!

The first "tillers" I ever heard of were small "walk behind" garden tillers. No clue as to when or where they were invented. The first tractor mounted "tillers" I know of were Howard Rotovators. I believe they originated in the British Isles.

 

[Yamezz]

Just did a quick check at Rotary Hoe
Invented by a 16 year-old Aussie kid named Arthur.

 

[charlz]

I do not have clay but have heard clay and sand make 'cement'... might want to experiment somewhere small Lots and lots of organic matter is what you need. Are you planning on planting a garden or just putting down grass? If you can get enough organics you might just 'sheet compost' and forget turning it under altogether if all you want is a little good soil for grass.

 

[JC-jetro]

G'day. I'm looking for some advice on the best implement to use to improve my soil. I have deep, water-repellent sand with very low nutrient levels. I would like to spread a thin layer of clay and marc (grape skins and seeds from my winery) over the surface, then incorporate it somehow. Would I be better off with discs or a rotary hoe. My feeling is the rotary hoe would do a better job, but not mix as deep as discs.

G'day Mate,

Us from " up over" use a bit of different lingo, but no matter! ... tractor talk is universal. I agree with others with their recommendation. you can use tiller or " Rotary Hoe" as you call it all day long.... it can whip up the soil to a powder like consistency but bit if rain water and compaction due to the weight of the soil it will reconstitute to the original hardness. As it was mentioned before the key is adding much organic matter in the form of compost, leaves, grasses and pretty much anything organic that could decompose to change the soil and break it up. You made a mention of grape seeds and skins.... they are certainly good... buy give us a bit of information as to the size of the area and size of organic material that you can get your hands on. I reckon your soil has plenty of clay since you mentioned "water repellent sand" . Did you mean sand or soil ? as the sand that we know here is quite pores. Here in U.S , we add sand to soil if needed to help with the drainage. if you have hard clay soil adding "powdered lime" helps to break clay structure.

Bottom line ... you need to incorporate bunch of organic matter to the soil. if your soil is too hard that may give your rotary hoe some indigestion.. I would recommend busting the soil by some sort of "plow" aka plough to break the soil to chunks and then going over it with a tiller.

G' luck
JC,

 

[Rowdius]

I have six acres of sand, and once wanted to build up my garden area. When I did not have access to a tiller and I was on a tight budget, I used a middle buster to dig the the widest, deepest trenches I could get. I then spread all the cow manure I could get into the trenches, using my landscape rake with every other tine removed to somewhat work it in as I spread it. Rolled the furrows back over the with me middle buster again and smoothed it out. The next spring I had a great garden there. There were much better ways to do it, but I had the middlebuster and the rake.

 

[SLOBuds]

There is a bit of science needed to get your soil corrected. And I'm not sure that it can be accomplished by one treatment.

Someone mentioned that mixing in clay didn't sound like the right idea, and I agree. I would recommend that you have the soil analyzed by a professional who will also tell you which ingredients are needed, and how much of each. You most likely are going to end up adding a lot of organic material and maybe a little bit of your clay and possibly some stone, and then maybe nitrogen. Adding nitrogen is the key to decomposition of organic material.

Someone will be able to tell you how much of each is needed to end up with nice topsoil. And I wouldn't be surprised if you will need to take these steps for a few years as the soil is repaired.

If you would like to do that on the cheap, it's might be possible for you to research about soil composition yourself on the internet. And calculate yourself what needs to be added.

My city home has clay soil. Clay has a high nutrient level but water does not dissipate through it and therefore most plants have a hard time thriving in it. The process of getting the clay to break down is sometimes described as taking decades. Other people say 'don't bother.' Instead, just have it removed and replaced with topsoil because the clay will never fully be corrected.

The tiller is best way to get all of the components quickly mixed together. That's true. But you might want to consider that most likely you are looking at a multi-year proposition anyway ... so why not just use the tools you have because it has to be done many times anyway. Even there, the tiller will speed up the process.

Good luck.

 

[Yamezz]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys.
The 'soil' is deep sand (about 80cm) over clay and in summer (like now) it gets bare in patches. When the wind blows I end up with it all in the house and the winery. The sand is quite water repellent - only winter rainfall will actually get into the soil as anything less than three days of rainfall just sits on the surface. It wicks away into the top layer, but scratch the surface 2cm down and it's bone dry underneath.
As for what I want to do: One part is to improve the soil around the house enough that the grass doesn't die off in summer so much, leading to the sand in the house problem. The other part is, well, a little less serious. I have a couple of small motorbike tracks on the property, which are great in winter when the sand is finally wet, but in summer it's so slippery and soft that it can result in close inspections of the vegetation if you know what I mean. Just driving through some of the paddocks is a job for the four wheel drive.
I've started mining the clay on site, but it's a slow process with the X495, especially getting back out of the hole without getting bogged. I've dug out a bit of clay and spread it in a test area to see how it goes. As for the grape skins, they've helped a bit around the house, but I haven't been able to mix them into the sand well enough. Oh, and don't even mention the drought we're in...

 

[timnjaneb]

Hello, The text regarding Rotary Hoe was interesting and made sense to me. However the picture looks like a tractor ?? The term rotary hoe in Indiana is for a different implement. Tim

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks for all the thoughts guys.
The 'soil' is deep sand (about 80cm) over clay and in summer (like now) it gets bare in patches. When the wind blows I end up with it all in the house and the winery. The sand is quite water repellent - only winter rainfall will actually get into the soil as anything less than three days of rainfall just sits on the surface. It wicks away into the top layer, but scratch the surface 2cm down and it's bone dry underneath.
As for what I want to do: One part is to improve the soil around the house enough that the grass doesn't die off in summer so much, leading to the sand in the house problem. The other part is, well, a little less serious. I have a couple of small motorbike tracks on the property, which are great in winter when the sand is finally wet, but in summer it's so slippery and soft that it can result in close inspections of the vegetation if you know what I mean. Just driving through some of the paddocks is a job for the four wheel drive.


I've started mining the clay on site, but it's a slow process with the X495, c bit of clay and spread it in a test area to see how it goes. As for the grape skins, they've helped a bit around the house, but I haven't been able to mix them into the sand well enough. Oh, and don't even mention the drought we're in...

Hello again,

80 cm... Wow that is deep indeed. I reckon you're in pickle good I wonder if you know the depth of the clay is uniform around your house. I suppose your house is built on "slab on grade" and without a basement. The thing is no amount of tilling on surface will do you any good for deep mixing. Your work will not be heavy as sand resistance is minimal but no serious work is done. it is same as whipping up a bowl of water with a fork... it'll end of being same water at the end. 17 to 20 cm is the max tillage you can do with a rotary hoe. You can use a "Sub Soiler"... (look ups King Kutter implement site), but the problem with that is you can go no further than 60 cm... so you may not be able to even scratch the clay layer. Obviously any amount of compost will help but you'll need tons and tons of them and that is not very practical. do you have equipment to actually remove... let say 40 cm form the top and cover it up with borrowed top soil from a near by place. Do you have any top soil that you can use? About your grapes... do you have them on a hill side terraced or on flat ground? how deep are the grape vine roots? you'll need many many cubic meter of soil and much organic material to make a difference it is equally difficult to build a garden site on a sandy beach 50 meters from the water... Yikes that is tough.

G'luck
JC,

 

[flusher]

G'day. I'm looking for some advice on the best implement to use to improve my soil. I have deep, water-repellent sand with very low nutrient levels. I would like to spread a thin layer of clay and marc (grape skins and seeds from my winery) over the surface, then incorporate it somehow. Would I be better off with discs or a rotary hoe. My feeling is the rotary hoe would do a better job, but not mix as deep as discs.

When I put in the new lawn area around my new house, I used the Kubota B7510HST/LA302FEL and a middle buster plow to break up the soil to about 8" depth

I scattered high nitrogen fertilizer around and then used my Yanmar RS-1200 rototiller (48" width) to work the soil

I made two passes with the tiller with the passes running at right angles. Didn't want to overdo the rototilling to prevent destruction of the soil microstructure.

 

[charlz]

The sand is quite water repellent - only winter rainfall will actually get into the soil as anything less than three days of rainfall just sits on the surface. It wicks away into the top layer, but scratch the surface 2cm down and it's bone dry underneath.

Sounds like what we had when I lived in Las Vegas. Organic matter is what helps water penetrate the soil. Sounds like you need a lot of it. I would start a small composting operation if you have stuff available to you or research having a lot of compost brought in. Likely even if you build your lawn soil up sand will blow onto it from surrounding ground and you will need to add organics on a yearly basis.

I have a couple of small motorbike tracks on the property, which are great in winter when the sand is finally wet, but in summer it's so slippery and soft that it can result in close inspections of the vegetation if you know what I mean. Just driving through some of the paddocks is a job for the four wheel drive.

Yuck, I hate sand tracks Clay is good for facing jumps and the like but if you can't wet it down it will be more like concrete. One of the tracks around here works a lot of wood chips into the clay soil in the straight aways and it helps keep it from going total hard pack. Watering and grooming are all part of maintaining a track though. Not something you probably need to do with sand.

Charles

 

[Yamezz]

JC - Most houses down here are built on a concrete slab. In Australia a basement is a novel thing. Given that not much of the country sees freezing soils they're not really needed.
Around the house I don't think I need to go that deep with my amelioration. The spots where I have managed to get Kikuyu grass established seem to grab onto any rain that we get, so it's really just improving the top few inches enough that I can get good establishment. Hopefully nature will take care of the rest.
As for the motorbike tracks, I think they'll need to be worked deeper and may need a higher proportion of clay. I've also found myself a free source of pine chips, so I'll get hold of a few loads of those soon and see how that helps traction in the sand.
As for the vines, they're all drip irrigated, so watering them isn't a problem. It seems that with the water repellent sand, once you get it wet it will take up water reasonably readily. When the winter rains come, the first couple of weeks slowly remove or overcome the water repellency and allow subsequent rains to penetrate. Of course once things dry out again we're back to square one...

 

[jbrumberg]

Yamezz:

I would also recommend that you get one of those cheap soil testing kits to determine pH, N, P, and K as you continue to add organic material. Jay

 

[charlz]

As for the motorbike tracks, I think they'll need to be worked deeper and may need a higher proportion of clay. I've also found myself a free source of pine chips, so I'll get hold of a few loads of those soon and see how that helps traction in the sand.

Going to have to work it in, if you just leave it on top it is all 'fluff' (assuming it is the fine stuff, like sawdust). I'd pick a section and work both clay and chips into it and see what you get. Might even be able to just mix them together in a pile till you get something you like and then dump it on part of the track. Any free sources of nitrogen? like manure? I would imagine your grape leavings are high in nitrogen. I would try composting some of that with the wood chips and see what you get. Does take _a lot_ of nitrogen to break down wood chips but I think they give you the best soil in the long run (years). Biggest problem I have with compost piles is keeping them wet enough to do their magic. Some good compost would do wonders for your lawn, helps retain moisture etc.

Charles