Where to start with the starter?

[quicksandfarmer]

Last summer I did something dumb and messed up my starter. I was using a 12V sprayer and I clipped the positive lead onto the power wire at the starter. The clip fell over and energized the solenoid while the engine was running. It made a racket. Since then I've had two problems with the starter:

1. The starter "spins" -- the gear doesn't engage with the flywheel. This happens about 50% of the time I use the starter. So far I have always been able to get it to catch within a few tries.

2. The starter keeps running even after I have released the key. This happens maybe one time in 20.


I think these symptoms are consistent with the solenoid sticking -- as if it has trouble engaging or disengaging. I've got it off the tractor now (a Jinma 354). What should I be looking at?

 

[Leejohn]

Might have a bad bearing in the front starter housing and maybe a bent shaft. Hook power to it now that you have it out and kick the solenoid in and out to see if it goes in all the way. Solenoid might also be bad.

 

[Affordable]

Sounds like a bad solenoid to me, we have them in stock if you need one

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[Wa11banger]

+ another one for the starter soleniod. I have replaced just the solenoid on far more than just tractors to fix those exact symptoms

 

[buickanddeere]

Pull the starter and inspect everything including the flywheel ring gear , starter pinion, starter drive linkage, over running clutch and solenoid.

 

[greg_g]

You'll likely find chewed up teeth on the pinion gear. It's replaceable on some models, but actually finding a replacement gear may be challenging. Probably less frustrating to just replace the whole solenoid.

//greg//

 

[RonMar]

These things also come lubed with "yak-fat" grease from the factory(very sticky). It could be that that inadvertent extended run moved some of that crap where it dosn't belong, causing your described sticky operation. A good teardown, cleaning and inspection, along with lubing with a little better grease might free-up a sticky linkage and solenoid... At any rate you need to pull it and inspect it before it damages the ring gear on the flywheel...

 

[SPIKER]

Mine was worse that what you had, while away the Hyd Hose wire tie broke, it fell down and wedged between the SOL post and the HOT Battery Post. It cranked till the battery was dead, some time after it fired right up of course. It ran nearly a full tank of fuel out while idling so at least 16hrs by my guess. I ran it and parked it in the barn around 2 PM and was gone till next day when I found it running key was out and off. (good thing) the Alternator does not charge with key off and starter spun the battery till it died meter read about 1 volt after I found it running & stopped it.

Here is what starter looked like (click pic for full size and see series and it's rebuild, there are pics both left and right of the one below.)




I had a replacement starter on hand so i stuck it in and tore the old one down for these photos and got some new brushes from Tommy at Affordable (he had a starter with band windings and sold me the brushes out of it.)

It (worked great) when I bench tested it so not too much worse for wear. It is waiting now for use if ever I need it...

Mark

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I took the solenoid off. It doesn't seem to be able to be disassembled without desoldering. Is it serviceable? Or do I just replace it? Everything else seems reasonably clean and moves freely.

 

[erj]

Yes, it is serviceable. Get me your Email address and I'll send you a PDF file with pictures for disassembly.
RonJ

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Yes, it is serviceable. Get me your Email address and I'll send you a PDF file with pictures for disassembly.
RonJ

I sent a PM.

 

[erj]

Enroute to your Email address

 

[farmerben8]

can you post that pdf here please? thanks!

 

[erj]

No, the PDF file is a multi-page document.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

To disassemble the solenoid you have to desolder the contacts and then resolder them when you put it back together. I did the disassembly, looked at the insides, and decided to buy a new one. It's about $50, it's mission-critical, there didn't seem to be any pieces on the inside to replace and I didn't see anything I could do to make it better. Sure, I probably could have taken it apart, cleaned and lubed it and put it together, and it would have worked for a while. But I've learned you rarely get a durable repair that way.

Although I will say these Chinese tractors do seem to have a lot of pieces where taking it apart, cleaning and reassembling it does fix something.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

An update:

This week I finally got to use my tractor for the first time since the beginning of the year. I got a new solenoid from Tommy and put it on. Unfortunately, it didn't solve the problem -- problems, actually. The starter still spins without engaging some of the time. When it does engage, it doesn't always disengage -- it keeps spinning even after the key is turned to the off position and my foot is off the clutch. This time of year my tractor needs a specific starting sequence to start, and it spun for a minute or more until I disconnected the battery. Very disconcerting. When the engine does start the starter will then disengage. My suspicion is that the pinion gear on the starter is getting stuck to the flywheel which keeps the solenoid engaged. The old solenoid was pretty beat up on the inside, I would say that the problem might be worse with the new solenoid.

So now I'm thinking that I need to replace either the pinion gear or the flywheel. Neither one is obviously damaged, just what looks like regular wear. Since the flywheel is a bigger job I'm thinking I'll start with the starter. Is the gear replaceable or do I need a whole starter?

 

[SPIKER]

It sounds to me that there could be some wiring issues, perhaps the Key Switch, or Clutch Switch or ?

Did you ever do the power relay upgrade to the system>?

The Starter SOL power comes thru the KEY and thru the CLUTCH SWITCH and out to the coil of the Starter Sol. The Starter SOL pulls in and sends power to the starter. IF you replaced the Starter Sol then the problem persists perhaps it is in the up stream wiring. that OR the NEW Starter Sol is sticking pulled in keeping power sent to the starter.

This could be from arching in the Contacts of the starter sol or due to Binding of it.

You could wire in a small LED 12vdc at the same power terminal of the starter SOL to troubleshoot it so you can see the LED ON when cranking if the eng keeps cranking and the light is OFF then the SOL is sticking in.

A NEW starter would fix the STICKING IF that is the problem, sounds like there are multiple issues at this time. I would NOT replace the flywheel just because it is worn slightly.

Mark

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I don't think it's a wiring issue, I think it's in the solenoid. The wire to the solenoid would have to be shorted to positive, or both the clutch switch and key switch would have to be shorting. If that were the case it wouldn't stop when the engine started. I'm pretty sure the drive gear from the starter is sticking to the flywheel.

 

[Coyote machine]

Here's my take: you cooked the starter and solenoid. You replaced the solenoid but the problems persist. The fact that when the engine starts the Bendix gear releases would point to the bendix spring being too weak to return the gear back into the starter until it is being run at high revs as the engine begins to run, and not on it's own accord, as it should when the bendix has not been fried. This is assuming there are no shorted wires or partially shorted wires, burnt contacts inside switches at the clutch or keyswitch. The flywheel is the least likely cause. Try a new starter, or rebuild yours, especially the shaft bearing at the input end of the starter. Things like teeth may look good but heat can/will cook bearings, etc.

 

[greg_g]

I think I mentioned this before, you need to verify how much voltage is getting to the solenoid. It needs a good strong 11-12v to throw the pinion with enough force to engage the ring gear. 9-10 volts means intermittent engagement, 7-8 volts will seldom result in engagement. But you can only test the voltage under load, so you need a helper. Sent multimeter for the lowest DC voltage range that will best detect 12 volts. Put the + lead on the solenoid post that is connected to the clutch interlock switch under the left floorboard. Put the - lead on a known good ground. Have the helper crank the engine, note the voltage reading on the meter while cranking.

If it's low, first thing to do is remove negative battery cable from the tractor frame and grind down to bare metal. Reattach ground cable and test again. If it's still low, bypass the clutch interlock switch and try again. If it's still low, you're a candidate for an aftermarket starter relay and larger gauge wiring to the solenoid.

//greg//