Where are the sun spots?

   / Where are the sun spots? #51  
The northern lights dance best in the dead of winter when the Grizzly is denned up sleeping.

Best be reading "The cremation of Sam McGee" before visiting the northern climes!:D :D :D The boiler on the Marge of lake Labarge has probably long since succumbed to the laws of thermodynamics so you may want to bring a substitute!:D :D :D

I have heard strange things happen as absolute zero is approached!:D :D
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #52  
MikePA said:
The 'hole' is there. It's importance and the banning of CFCs should have been debated. Since CFCs have already been banned, the question is irrelevant.

It was well and truly debated. You must have missed it.

In the end, the importance, cause, and only practical solution, were agreed upon almost universally.

You obviously don't do any reseach before you post so heres a little snippet I got from Wikipedia for you..

"No significant natural sources have ever been identified for these compounds. (chlorofluorocarbons) Their presence in the atmosphere is due almost entirely to human manufacture"
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #53  
I'm not sure what your Wikipedia quote is there for, all it says is that (news flash!) CFCs are man made. So is steel, maybe that's the issue.

The Ozone Scare was a great example of acting before the facts were in. They discovered the hole in the mid 80's, and they found it was getting bigger. They knew that CFCs destroyed ozone, they could replicate that in the lab. They kind of neglected to explain why the hole was over the south pole when most of the population is in the north, I guess CFCs are heavy and sink to the bottom of the planet. Or maybe Aussies smell bad and need a lot of deodorant. It was the 80s so we won't talk about the hairspray... Some people pressured the government to do something about CFCs (won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!) and, luckily, replacement compounds were available so the government banned them and industry switched to "green" compounds and we now all pay a little extra for deodorant and hair spray. But the earth was saved!

But the ozone hole is still there. And it's growing. And also shrinking. Turns out that we now think the ozone hole may have ALWAYS been there, at least since before the industrial revolution when most people agree pollution really started. It also has cycles, both seasonal as well as cycles that last longer periods. Banning CFCs had a negligible impact on the ozone layer and was generally a waste of money and effort, but people feel good about that CFC-free sticker so there's no need to say "mea culpa" and apologize. The lesson to learn here is that the knee-jerk reaction to doomsday media reports is often pre-mature and, more importantly, the media are awful at retracting these stories. In fairness, the general population is awful at watching those stories.

Now, ironically, too much ozone in the lower atmosphere where the CFCs were used is bad for you. I wonder if bringing back CFCs would help those with breathing issues on those ozone-filled summer days?

If you had cited sulfur compounds and acid rain or anti-smog devices those could be seen as wins for the environmentalists. Unfortunately I'm with the founder and ex-head of Greenpeace, he quit the organization because they started to focus less on the environment and more on politics and punishing evil corporations. That's why CO2 is the big baddie now, it covers all internal combustion engines and the majority of power generation (oops! forgot and those evil nukes). They never mention water vapor, which is much more potent but would kill the hydrogen fuel market. Nor do they mention methane, because the best way to prevent methane is to prevent trees from decomposing. Either burn them or turn them into lumber before they get the chance. Climate science today is like medicine during the civil war. We know enough to be dangerous but there's a long road ahead before climate models can even come close to predicting what's going on. So we'll take a look at the cost of each bugbear they come up with and decide how serious the threat is and how expensive it is to fix. With CFCs we got off easy, no such luck with CO2.
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #54  
alchemysa said:
It was well and truly debated. You must have missed it.

In the end, the importance, cause, and only practical solution, were agreed upon almost universally.

You obviously don't do any reseach before you post so heres a little snippet I got from Wikipedia for you..

"No significant natural sources have ever been identified for these compounds. (chlorofluorocarbons) Their presence in the atmosphere is due almost entirely to human manufacture"
No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for the quote from Wikipedia, the ultimate 'reseach' {sic} source for all things scientific. :rolleyes: And I'm supposed to take your word that it was 'well and truly debated'. Right.

However, you have missed the obvious.The issue isn't whether there are CFCs in the atmosphere, that's irrelevant. The question is did CFCs cause the hole in the ozone layer or was the 'hole' a natural one. That was never debated.

As I said before, this discussion is a waste of time since CFCs were banned. Much more productive to debate whether we can get gas from water.
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #55  
I personally think that the "hole" has been there since the begining of time . I would think it would have something to do with charged particles repelling each other around the South pole , maybe attracting at the North pole .
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #56  
I am still awaiting someone to tell me if burning my log is more unfriendly to the environment than if I let it rot in the woods!:D :D :D
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #57  
Burning it releases the carbon straight into the atmosphere were as letting it rot , "Sequesters" the carbon into the soil , locking it up once more . But without Volcanoes belching it out billions of years ago there would be no atmosphere or plant life to begin with .
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #58  
Iron Horse said:
Burning it releases the carbon straight into the atmosphere were as letting it rot , "Sequesters" the carbon into the soil , locking it up once more . But without Volcanoes belching it out billions of years ago there would be no atmosphere or plant life to begin with .

It's not quite as simple as that. For one, decomposing material also releases gaseous hydrocarbons like methane - a greenhouse gas much more potent than CO2. You can also consider that some of the CO2 produced by burning the tree in the lower atmosphere will be absorbed by the local flora - creating stronger plants means that they're also likely to survive long enough to go to seed. This subtle effect further reduces the net CO2 atmospheric buildup. Plus CO2 is about global warming, not climate change. Releasing the ash into the atmosphere has been considered to be a mask for global warming. Granted it's mostly an excuse as to why the models don't match up with reality, but if that's the current state of the science it's fair game. When you couple all these reasons together (and I'm sure I can come up with some more) it's feasible that burning the wood could have a net cooling effect. Either way, it's best to shape it into lumber and put some use to it.

Someone once calculated that it's actually more carbon polluting to walk or bike to the shops than it is to drive within a certain range because of the extra CO2 you'd burn by getting out of breath. Sometimes once more variables are added to the equation you get surprising answers :)
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #59  
jdbower said:
I'm not sure what your Wikipedia quote is there for, all it says is that (news flash!) CFCs are man made. So is steel, maybe that's the issue.

.

The Wiki quote means that nature does not make its own CFC's. They are a man-made invention. So the only way they got into the atmosphere is because we put them there.

The discovery of ozone depletion and the discovery of the ozone hole are not the same thing.

I think scientists had known for about 10 years that ozone had been depleting. But it wasn't until the mid eighties that they discovered that the depletion was so bad that it created a 'hole'. So its worth remembering that concerns about this issue were raised and debated long before the hole was discovered. The discovery of the hole was a big wake up call. It was time to stop debating and start doing something.

The hole (the thinnest concentration of ozone) is over the south pole because of the earth's spin and because the air stays colder for longer.
To suggest it should be in the northern hemisphere because thats where most of the people are is pretty funny.
 
   / Where are the sun spots? #60  
MikePA said:
No, I didn't miss anything, but thanks for the quote from Wikipedia, the ultimate 'reseach' {sic}

I don't rely on Wikipedia but Wikipedia is usually pretty 'concise' so its a good source for the 'short version' of things and good short quotes.

Do you really know anything about Wikipedia? I have some experience with it and i can tell you that extreme or unproven views are rapidly knocked out. Its a completely open source so there has to be very widespread agreement on the facts or it just won't last.

If anything, I'd say its pretty conservative in the way it presents scientific articles. They have a rule: 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary references'. This tends to weed out the loonies.
Wikipedia is far from perfect but its quite good if you understand how its put together.

To give you some idea, the Wiki article on the ozone hole is the result of 25,000 public corrections since just 2002. The article you see has been honed that many times to acheive a result that is palatable to all the interested parties.

But you can still go into Wikipedia yourself and change the facts about the Ozone hole to suit your argument. The only problem is you'll need some credible research to back up your story or it won't last for too long.
 
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