What's your garden strategy?

PineRidge · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

I have actually never done a soil sample. Might anyone share where they might be sent? Is there a certain way this test is performed or does one merely pop some soil in a "Glad Bag" and send it of to a lab for analysis? With the excess of horse manure that I currently have I fear that if I did the tests right now the results might come back, "Your cup runneth over, cut back on the dukie, dude!" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bird · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Mike, for the only soil tests I've had done I went to my county extension agent and got the bags and forms to fill out from him. Instructions are included for taking small samples several places in the area you want tested, then I just mailed the package to Texas A&M with a small fee (I've forgotten how much, but it's pretty cheap in my opinion). I assume you have something similar in your state.

Bob_Skurka · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Since I got my tiller, my rows/beds are always about 50" wide. I have a 50" side shift tiller. That makes my decision simple. I wanted a fairly small tiller, one that would cover the tracks of the tractors and found out that the best option was the cheap one! I got a $1600 tiller for under $1000 new from a dealer I've dealt with before who was closing out his Land Pride inventory. While it covers the tracks of my smaller tractor it does not cover the tracks of the larger one. . . however it has the side shift function which allows me to use either tractor and not compress freshly tilled soil.

So I have to reach and even step into my beds to harvest, but that is OK with me. In the past I've just tilled up large gardens, this spring I'm going to do widely spaced beds that allow me to reach in from either side, if I have to step in every once in a while, that is OK too.

As for wanting an implement, it is just because I am a sadist and like to punish myself. An implement justifies a bigger garden, more to tend, more to deal with, and less practical in real terms for me & my family. But I've taken 5 gallon buckets of tomatoes and peppers into work in the past, no reason why I shouldn't be able to take bushel baskets of produce in next year . . . and that may justify buying a more practical vehicle as neither of my convertibles has enough truck space to fit a 5 gallon bucket! So unless I want to load up the back seats I may be in the market for a truck too???

The goal will be to have way more than we need. Bush beans, sweet corn, cukes, various melons, tomatoes, peppers, squash, pumpkins. Plus marigolds, dill and a few others will be interplanted to attract the good bugs and ward off the bad bugs (I'm an organic veggie gardiner, but willing to use chemicals very sparingly on non-edibles where the kids/dogs don't play).

Glenn9643 · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

I'm still curious how those of you who have posted on using 4' or wider beds handle harvesting, i.e. reaching in from the walkways between the beds??? Before I decided to go with 30" beds, I laid out a bed on the ground, walked it, "pretended" to do the various things you do in planting/cultivating/harvesting. I bought my tiller width etc to fit. If harvesting low growing crops 4' and wider beds can't be stradled (unless you're REALLY tall!), higher crops would be difficult to reach in from the aisle, etc.
It helps to put a little thought into where you plant different crops. In my case, all garlic of a certain type will be dug at the same time so access for "picking" isn't a concern. Peppers and tomatoes spread out pretty much and need more space than 30" would provide. I've used scraps of 2x10 or other wide boards to throw down to step on if needed.
When I built my beds I used a tiller to pulverize the soil after killing the grass in the area with roundup. After tilling I raked and tried to get as many roots out as possible. Then tilled in a massive amount of peat and manure and mulched with pinestraw. Every year I rake the mulch back and add compost. I've not needed a tiller in the raised beds since I built them because the soil has not packed and easily worked with a fork. I've had a minor problem with bermuda grass in a few areas and in general with nutsedge. The bermuda is removed by the roots after loosening the soil with a fork about twice a year. I've been wanting to add some 1/8X8" wide steel plate around the perimiter of the beds about 6" deep to stop the bermuda roots from spreading into the beds, but the rise in steel prices has that on hold for now. Spraying with "Manage" is gradually removing the remaining nutsedge.
In my opinion the key is to get your soil right to start with. It's more work and expense initially but it's easier and better in the long run. Please note that I don't use raised beds for everything... peas, beans, okra, corn, squash, whatever are planted in the regular garden area on approximately 30" rows.

Glenn9643 · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Mike,

You might find some information here on where to send your soil sample.

EastTexFrank · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

( Have you ever reflected on the relative labor inputs per output between "your" rows, and your wife's beds? )

You bet I have. I put a micro soaker hose on a timer on each raised bed and put down weed cloth after preparation and pine straw mulch after she plants. That makes "her" beds relatvely easy to look after all year. She plants pretty close together but with ample water and a little fertillizer her garden is a heavy producer and to be honest, her quality is probably a little better than mine. Over the years I have found that 4' is the maximum width for raised beds so that I/she can pick from either side without having to stand in the beds which kind of defeats the whole purpose.

My garden is probably 10 times the area of hers and I would guess that it produces about 3 times as much. It is a lot more labor intensive and that's why I'm always trying things to make life a little bit easier. Planting the rows 5 to 6 feet apart and using the tractor and tiller between them to keep weeds down really helps. You still have to hand weed between the indivdal plants but that's not too bad. Down here in Texas, the most important thing, apart from tilling in compost every spring, is getting a good, steady watering schedule. Dragging hoses around for 4 hours every couple of days in a Texas summer isn't a whole lot of fun. That's why I always spend part of every winter designing a new watering system or technique. I haven't found the ideal system yet but I keep on experimenting. Someday I'll come up with the best permanent system that I can install and forget about but it wasn't last year or the year before and it probably won't be next year but hey, it gives me something to do and think about.

Glenn9643 · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Frank,

I've found that heavy mulching with pinestraw goes a long way in holding moisture in the raised beds, and the abundant organic matter in the soil helps too. Even with this however, watering is necessary at times. I've been using 3/4" black rolled tubing. In my 6' wide beds I use two runs, one down each side. Cut the tubing to length and put a plug on one end and a clamp-on hose connection on the other. Then I added drip waterers about every two feet. I think they were made by "Rain-Bird" but not sure. Punch a hole in the rolled tubing with a tool that looks like a golf tee and insert the barbed end of the dripper into the tubing. They are supposedly calibrated to about a gallon per hour I think. My mulch goes on over these hoses and I can water by attaching a hose and go about my business. Not as simple as automatic timed watering, but that didn't work for me. Many times I didn't need the water but the timer didn't realize that!
The way our rains are off/on about the only way I would consider an automatic system would be if one was available that sensed the moisture in the soil and watered as needed. Too much water can be as bad as not enough. Dragging hoses isn't a problem for me since I added a water line that goes by my raised beds and on to the other end of the garden with faucets within 25' of all the raised beds, 50' from my compost piles, and at each end of the garden. I've got several hoses rolled up around these faucets but rather buy hoses than drag them over the place as you mentioned.

txdon · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

I keep it simple. I Make my own soil from decomposed leaves, wood, grass, cow manure, and cottonseed meal. I Throw it in 5X10 raised beds after 6 months of decomposing. I water with a solar irrigation system pumping from a pond nearby to each raised bed where the supply can be controled. When I get older I will narrow it to 4' so I won't have to stretch. Something is growing year round. I only tend to the garden a little on weekends.

I had to put up a deer and rabbit fence. The coons are still a problem with corn.

I have 6 raised beds. The first year I got 1000 tomatoes from one 5X10. now I plant a lot less.

The most important part is making good soil from compost.

I still am getting about 30 tomatoes and peppers a weekend. It's salsa time.

Attachment: solar panel at pond, pumps to raised water tank, you can see the deer fence around the garden and one of my raised beds with cilantro growing.

There is a bench and a sink with "city" water in the garden since the house is a bit away.

PineRidge · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Bird and Glenn thanks for the info. I know it's something that I should do so I'll get it done before the next growing season.

SPIKER · Nov 7, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

I don't know what I consider myself. I plant a ~50x50' area the last few years, though this was only the 2nd year at this location where the garden will be form now on, (I put in a frost free water/hose farm type spigot.) it sets at the corner of the garden so I now have water right there when and if needed. last year I tilled in about 3~4 truck loads of drywall into the hard clay & Sod. it was grass/field prior to this. this year I tossed in a bit more. I laid it out between rows as walk ways last year and this year I planted rows ~30~36" appart and ran the walk behind tiller down the path. the clay seems much better as I tilled the reminates in last weekend and it looks pretty good now. I toss in lots of old stuff to compost and it will get better and I use a bit of fert on the rows, 12 12 12 or so usually. I leave the clovers grow but pull most the other weeds that are IN the rows and toss them inbetween and walk on them and they get tilled in about 2 times a month to knock down the re-groth. I have not gotten any thing else in there yet but want to add some sand & or manure. this year I planted rows east/west and next year they will be north/south. with lower groth stuff on the est side that needs shade from the hot sun in after noon such as spinach & lettus where as the tomatos and onions will be on the west side. corn beans ect in the middle. I'm Thinking this will help the stuff that likes more water too as the shade form corn will keep it damper. now anyhow that also means my water hose will be close to the cool wetter side and the hot drier stuff will be farther away. I also burnt off the garden this year prior to tilling it in and also ran the mower over it to chop up anythign that didn't burn well such as the heavy stalks left from corn.

now this is not a SET plan just a test as this was only 2nd year and first year was mostly weeds growning as there was some problems this yera we had better luck but still the weeds took over near harvest time as noone was there and the grass mowing was taking too much time. nest year will probably be more of the same but 2 yrs down I can see living there and the weeds will not be such a problem.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

slydog · Nov 8, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Hey Glen,
Can you mail me a couple of those Roast beef sandwiches with gravy from Ray's PeeGee, and a large "sweep the kitchen" from Johnny's ??? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also have a question for you guys on gardening and weeds. My small 40x30 backyard garden almost killed me this year with the weeds. It was the first year I have had it in and when I broke the ground this spring, it was mostly bermuda grass. I didn't use any type of weed killer at all, just tilled with my troy built, made up rows then planted. I did find that mulching with dried lawn clippings, and pine needles helped a lot. But I spent most of my time hand weeding between plants, and hoe'n in the afternoons. It was a constant job, and almost makes it not worth the trouble. I finally gave up on the nutgrass and burmuda after a couple of months of harvesting as it just took all my time. How can I do this better next year where it isn't working me to death? What is your regiment for the year from starting in the spring till the fall to battle and control these dang weeds and grasses? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ken

Bob_Skurka · Nov 8, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Personally I never weed my garden. I do a few things like grass mulch to supress them. Sometimes in the fall or early winters I will lay down plastic over the garden area (not this year as I'm changing things completely) and allow the sun to bake the area. Black plastic works best as it blocks light and soaks up heat, but I've done it with clear plastic as well. The plastic seems to bake the weed seeds and those that germinate end up baking. It does not get the soil so hot as to kill the microrganisms that are beneficial, it just gets it hot enough to bake off the sprouts. If your climate will allow it, go to the hardware store and get a large roll of visqueen and lay it down within the next 30 days or so. It will work well, and you can reuse the plastic for several years if you take care to make sure the winds don't pull it up. (concrete blocks around the perimeter work wonders, I also buried the perimeter with a couple inches of dirt).

Then the grass mulching seems to surpress a lot after the plants start growing. Better than grass alone is a layer of newspaper topped with grass. Put the newspaper down so it is 2 to 4 sheets thick right after you set out the tansplants (keep a hose handy to wet it down so the wind doesn't blow it; immediatly put some grass mulch over the paper to keep it in place after it dries. Newspapers & grass mulch also work well after seeds sprout. I sort of figure some weeds are OK as long as they don't overtake things.

As I am increasing the size of my garden plans for next spring, I'm not sure what will be practical, but I've used the above methods for my gardens in the past and they averaged about 30' by 60'.

SPIKER · Nov 8, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

slydog: till it good this time of year and leave it bare so any thing that trys to sprout will be easy to see and remove. the roots will die out after being torn up and not gettting a chanvce to re-grow. also will make seeds die out as they will rot in the gorund or germinate quick so that next spring when you till it again it will not have as much re-groth. it is hard starting a garden where once there was grass/weeds. takes a few seasons of hard work to get them right.

MarkM /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Glenn9643 · Nov 8, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Ken,
You really just need to stop by this area to get those groceries!
This was my first year with this garden spot too, and with all the rains the weeds took it. I've been tilling it occasionally to help kill weeds as they sprouted (since I cleaned the garden remnants off) and I've also been spraying with Manage for the nutsedge. It's probably still warm enough for you to spray roundup to help with the bermuda if it's still growing. I've made some headway against the weeds this fall. I bedded it up in rows about a month ago and don't have any weeds sprouting yet. May not have much of a problem this winter, and if not I'll just go back over the beds with the disk-bedder this spring and plant. Probably try to find some wheat straw to mulch the middles if it's available this spring.

EastTexFrank · Nov 9, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

In the raised beds I use weed cloth and pine straw mulch and that works pretty good. In my "open" garden I spray and till, spray and till. Grasses especially are tough to kill without spraying. A lot of them propogate by runners and rhizomes so tilling on its own just seems to help them to spread.

There's an old saying, "If you let it run to seed, for 7 years will you weed" . I don't know who came up with that one 'cos I've been on this place for 7 years and I'm still weeding. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Good luck.

Libertine · Nov 9, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

Pineridge:

I have actually never done a soil sample. 

The soil test I was suggesting above was for structure, not a chemical analysis. Structure is the actual physical composition of the soil. All soil is particles of sand, silt and clay (from very large - relatively - to very small). In addition, decayed organic matter (humus). The smaller the particles the more water attaches (there are more particles per cubic inch-ie much greater surface area for water to adhere to). Which is why a "clay" type soil doesn't drain as well as a sandy soil (sandy soil has much, much less surface area per cubic inch than clay). You can easily test that yourself as suggested - take a sample from say 6" down, pack a quart jar about 1/3 full, fill the rest with water to the top, shake it up real good so everything is in suspension, then leave it on a windowsill (so the light is behind it). The heavier particles (the sand) will drift down, silt particles will be above that and the clay layer next. Floating on the clear water will be the organic matter. You will be able to see dividing lines between the different material. Where the dividing lines are, will determine the relative percentages of material. For example, if sand/silt/clay layers are together say 3" but the sand layer is say less than 1/2" then your soil is only about 15% or less sand (a little low). You get the idea. The thickness of the floating humus layer will tell you the relative organic content of your soil.

As far as the chemical analysis, Bird's suggestion about sending to a college or contacting your county agent is right on. However, you can perform your own chemical analysis (as least as far as the basics are concerned-if you need tests for the various micro-nutrients you'd be better off sending a sample off for a lab to do). Kits are available from various places. I don't have the URL handy, but a search for "PeacefulValleyFarmSupply" should turn up something. Or try Johnnysselectedseeds (I think they sell soil testing kits also). I've never had my soil tested (outside tests), but I have used labs to test for chemical composition and they are cheap and prompt. A couple years ago I was doing some experiments in raising the protein level in field corn through fermentation (prior to distillation). Sent samples off to a lab in Memphis and they sent back a complete analysis. (Never could get the protein level high enough though).

JEH

PS thanks to all of you who have been posting their particular approaches to gardening. It's interesting to see the various approaches you all are using.

slydog · Nov 10, 2004

Re: What\'s your garden strategy?

( Ken,
You really just need to stop by this area to get those groceries! )

Thanks for all of the great suggestions guys! I will definitely take all of your advice.

My wife is from Monroe, and she still has friends and relatives there so I'm sure we will be heading down that way in the next few months, which means we will definitley be stopping in at Rays, and Johnnys!!!