Went solar

   / Went solar #51  
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating something. I believe that one of the ways that money is saved when the decision is made to go solar is that you become much more aware of your power usage. This helps you to conserve and become more efficient. In the long run much less energy is used and wasted. More efficient use does not mean a lower quality of life. My family (now just wife and me) has been off the grid for 28 years.

Loren
 
   / Went solar #52  
Clemsonfor: We pay 10 cents per KWH for what we use, we make 16 cents per KWH on what we produce. So there is a KWH break even and a dollar$ break even point. So if I make 65% or more of my energy, I'm ahead dollars wise for the day. In the last 7 weeks, I've averaged making 52% of my energy.

All good geeks can outgeeek other geeks in the own geeky area.

Temperature data I just took (all in F). It was a breezy day, full sun at time of measurment:

Ambient air temp: 67 F
Surface temp of panels (the front side) ranged from 86 to 94 degrees, depending on the amount of wind blowing (it was a breezy day).
Back side of the panels was 104 degrees F.
Measured at the solar zenith, output power of the array was 7300 watts.
Inverter case was at 84 degrees, exhaust air out was 102 degrees.

So in a no wind situation, the panel temp might be around 35 degrees hotter than ambient air. So on a 95 degree day here my 216 watt panels might produce 185 watts. Of course there are errors here since I can only measure the front and back side. Also on those hot summer days the humidity is higher and there is more haze, so the panels put out less. I was still getting 6500 watts out on 95 degree days at the peak. Perhaps the most important number is that from noon to 6 PM, I provided more energy than I used even if all the air conditioners were running. A nice peak load win.

Here's a picture of the watts produced for yesterday and today so far. We have less clouds today than yesterday.

Pete


We'll have to wait till a forestry or timber harvesting/crusing question till i can outgeek you, and heck this stuff is science but i dont think its hard science so you prolly will still follow my explanation of said topic anyway.
 
   / Went solar #53  
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating something. I believe that one of the ways that money is saved when the decision is made to go solar is that you become much more aware of your power usage. This helps you to conserve and become more efficient. In the long run much less energy is used and wasted. More efficient use does not mean a lower quality of life. My family (now just wife and me) has been off the grid for 28 years.

Loren

i cant really get more concious of power useage. We try and wash all chlothes in multi loads back to back to take advantage of a hot dryer ( i guess we could hang them up, but were not at that point yet) wash only full dishwasher ( i heard this is cheaper than hand washing by the time u use all that hotwater and water) and heat with wood as much as possible, and turn only one light if we can in a room and cut out lights in rooms were not in. We dont have pretty lights turned on all over the house like my wifes mom, you can count 12 lightbulbs on (the normal kind) in the combo living/dining room in the evening!!!!
 
   / Went solar #54  
i cant really get more concious of power useage. We try and wash all chlothes in multi loads back to back to take advantage of a hot dryer ( i guess we could hang them up, but were not at that point yet) wash only full dishwasher ( i heard this is cheaper than hand washing by the time u use all that hotwater and water) and heat with wood as much as possible, and turn only one light if we can in a room and cut out lights in rooms were not in. We dont have pretty lights turned on all over the house like my wifes mom, you can count 12 lightbulbs on (the normal kind) in the combo living/dining room in the evening!!!!


As much as I do not like the light that is given off by compact florescent bulbs, they sure do use a lot less energy. But they sure do cost a lot more to replace. Do you use CFLs?
 
   / Went solar #55  
I have no problem with someone that wants to purchase a solar system using their own money. I do not believe in tax credits to help pay for it though. If it was such a great deal everyone would do it and not consider the tax credit in the purchase price/payback calculations.

When someone gets a tax credit that means less money in the treasury coffers. Someone has to make that up and no matter how you slice it everyone that did not get a credit is paying the bill.
 
   / Went solar #56  
The school district I work for out here in the desert looked into solar. After all, what could be better than 330+ cloudless days. We talked to the sales people from several different solar companies and were given glowing reports on how much power we would produce.

We then had our professional engineers evaluate. A different story for us. It turns out that PV panels are most efficient at 59 degrees F. As the temperature climbs the cells produce less and less electricity and at about 110 degrees they about stop performing. Heat within the PV cell itself increases the internal resistance to a point that voltage diminishes to a minimum. Not a consideration for many, but it just didn't fit our environment.

I ran into the same thing when I lived in Vegas. There were no State incentives at the time and the ROI was 25 years, same as the warranty on the PV panels. When I found about about the temp thing though that really was a deal breaker... I would generate the least power when I needed it the most, hot summer days.

I would like to put in a solar DHW system here but it doesn't appear to be too feasible considering the location of various components. Still want to study it more though.
 
   / Went solar #57  
I believe that one of the ways that money is saved when the decision is made to go solar is that you become much more aware of your power usage. This helps you to conserve and become more efficient. In the long run much less energy is used and wasted. More efficient use does not mean a lower quality of life.

If I had to set my A/C 5 - 10 degrees warmer (I live in FL) that would be lowering my QOL.
 
   / Went solar #58  
Storm, all energy sources get some form of government subsidies. But I also realize that the argument "well, everyone else is getting money from the government" is a pretty weak argument. An interesting question is this:

If none of the energy sources we used received government assistance, tax breaks or preferential regulatory laws, then would the price of electricity be high enough that solar would be finically feasible with no tax credits? Wish I new the answer...

Moss Road, As for the CFLs, I put a lot of ceiling can lights in my house only to find out that the CFLs have much lower life in them. They are best when used in the upright or sideways position in an open air environment. In a can light, the electronics is taking the brunt of the heat from the bulb and it runs very hot. Often the plastic in the base turns brown from the heat. The capacitors and semiconductors have much shorter lifetimes than if they are kept cooler. Parts that can withstand the heat are much more expensive to use. Googling CFL problems has more on all this.
Fortunately, I also put a number of sconce type lights in my house for hallways and bathrooms and those work very well with the CFLs. I also used dimmers on incandescent bulbs for the bedroom and my office. With incandescents the combination of a slow ramp up when turned on and running at partial brightness means long life and lower energy use.

CFLs tend to not work from an economic point of view if they are on for less than 5 minutes. Like a well pump, they may run forever but only turn on so many times. Incandescence have the same problem, but with a lower price they don't have to turn on as many times to be cost effective. There is a lot of manufacturer variation in quality and how much heat CFLs can take, and some of the problem here has been a rush to market with poor/cheap designs. Another problem is that since the bulbs rectify the AC and make DC for the electronic ballast, they do not draw current like a resistive incandescent bulb. They draw a peak current near the top of the AC wave form, and they draw current out of phase due to the capacitor in the bulb (in other words, bad power factor). So the 13W CFL that replaces the 60W incandescent really requires generation capacity of close to 30 watts from the power plant, adds a lot of harmonic distortion, and has bad power factor. The power bill is good for the owner since there is no charge for harmonic distortion or power factor problems but the reduction of power plant resources and pollution is half of what it might seem. Bottom line, they have a place in the house, cut generation requirements in half, are great for the light you might leave on for an hour or two, but can't replace every incandescent bulb.

Note that LED lights will have the same sorts of problems. If you look at efficiencies (lumens per watt kind of stuff), and the incandescent bulb is a '1', then florescent is a '4' and LED is a '5'. But the LED still has electronics in it, still has the harmonic distortion and power factor problem, and still has the problem of getting rid of heat in a standard fixture where the electronics and bulb are in the same screw in device. The life of the LED is proportional to how cool you keep it, so there will be problems with companies cheaping out on heat sinking the parts as well as problems with the lifetime of the electronics driving the LEDs.

soapbox:
It's sad that the world can't agree on a form factor and connector style/pinout for external electronics to drive fluorescent bulbs and LED lights (different boxes for each type). When you remove the heat from the electronics, the life of the systems makes the economics work. But that means new fixtures and a means to access the electronics. Perhaps even sadder is that if the world can't agree on this sort of thing, how do we solve the really big problems?
/soapbox

If done right, both bulb types are economically viable in terms of high initial cost of the bulb vs. savings from low energy use. The two problems are getting the designs right and getting consumers who will pay now and save later.

Hope this wasn't a TMI post...

Pete
 
   / Went solar #59  
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating something. I believe that one of the ways that money is saved when the decision is made to go solar is that you become much more aware of your power usage. This helps you to conserve and become more efficient. In the long run much less energy is used and wasted. More efficient use does not mean a lower quality of life. My family (now just wife and me) has been off the grid for 28 years.

I would agree with that... having recently bought an RV that we take camping/dirtbike riding. We are always 'boondocking' which is camping without a grid hookup, just what was in the battery when we started and what we can produce with a generator. Kind of an eye opening experience as to what you take for granted at a house where you just 'flip the switch'. Goes for water usage to :)
 
   / Went solar #60  
As much as I do not like the light that is given off by compact florescent bulbs, they sure do use a lot less energy. But they sure do cost a lot more to replace. Do you use CFLs?

Yep in all my most used lights, slowly replacing all others. The old ones i have from like 5 years ago take a few seconds to come on, but the ones that you buy now are instant on, still a little warm up time but light the second you flip the switch unlike the half second delay of the older ones. Lowes this week has 6 (iguess 60watt) bulbs in a 6pack for $6. Lowes is always way cheaper than walmart or other places.

In my house i might only have non CFL bulbs on for a total of less than an hour a day at at that it is at most only 2 at the time in a ceiling fixture. I have all new kitchen appliances, energy star fridge, ele. oven and dishwasher are not energy star. non energy star washer and dryer as well, but i wont replace them anytime soon and the price of the star ones does not pay. My water where i live is only $3/thousand gallons so water saving does not save me big $$$.
 

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