Well Water System Design

[Pettrix]

Need some input on a future well water system. Well depth is around 375 feet with static water coming in at around 220 feet. 30-50GPM is what I am looking at.

They wanted to install the pressure tank in a shed or garage but I don't like that because of the cold and the freezing winter temps might freeze the lines in a shed. Also in summer it can get really hot in the shed and I don't want hot water coming through the pipes when I turn on the cold water.

1 - Is it possible to have the well water line run underground at a 4 foot depth (required 2 feet but I prefer 4 feet for those extra cold winters) from the well to the homes mechanical room by running the water line underneath the slab and then making a 45 degree turn and coming up through the slab? Of course the plumbing line would be installed first prior to the pouring of the slab-on-grade.

2 - I am looking to get a 85 Gallon pressure tank that the line would install to inside of the mechanical room of the home. Any advice on that?

3 - Well Pump: 1.5 HP Goulds Conventional. Is that a good pump?

4 - They asked about if I wanted an "upgrade" to a :10SQE 15-330 Groundfos Set w 2/gal pressure tank & CU30 - Not sure what that is about?

5 - What about installing shut off valves in the system? If so, where would be a good spot to install a shut off valve (prior to the pressure tank)?

6 - What about installing water meter gauge so I can measure usage?

Drilling = 6.5" Bore Hole
Casing Surface = 7" Steel
Casing Solid = 4.5" PVC Solid
Casing Perforated = 4.5" Factory Perf PVC

Any input or advice would be appreciated. I was told to avoid steel casings and go with PVC as it will last longer. Supposedly steel casings start to corrode and fail around 20-30 years???

 

[Raspy]

I just ran my water line from the pump house to the main house by slipping black 1" (200 PSI rated) poly inside 2" PVC. For the bends I used long radius electrical conduit 90s. After the PVC was all in and covered, I slid the poly through it. Down from the pump house and up through the slab in the main house to a manifold that distributes it to the various points in the house.

You'd be better of with a sleeved pipe passing through the slab, and with the way I described, you could change the pipe if needed later. Also, I don't think the poly line will split if frozen and it is rated for drinking water. Some of the conduit 90s can be had in about a 3' radius bend.

One of your problems will be installing the pitless adapter in the well casing at 4' down plus the height of the casing above ground, maybe 6' total. You may have to sweep the pipe run up at the casing and connect it only 2' down.

Be sure you put a pressure relief before your first shutoff valve at the pressure tank. Relief, valve, union, pressure tank. Or just leave that valve out. Put one after the pressure tank to isolate the house. Also be sure you install check valves at no more than about 25' intervals all the way down the casing and hang the whole setup on a VERY substantial rope. Yacht braid in about 3/8" worked for me and I have PVC pipe all the way down with a total weight of only about 100 lbs. If there is a problem, or the pump gets dropped, it's nice to be able to pull hard on it for retrieval. I dropped mine and was very lucky to get it back.

A water meter sounds like fun information, but I don't know if it's useful. Only, maybe if you are selling water or controlling the volume to some remote location. It won't help you find a leak later on.

I only use the well pump to fill a tank. Then the tank gravity feeds my pressure pump that feeds the house. This way there is much lower pressure needed from the pump and the pipe coming up sits at a lower pressure. Seems unfair to make the pump push the water all the way up the well plus pressurize it to the house and cycle constantly when in use. Too much strain and too many starts. If my pump fails I still have water in the tank that can be used until I fix the pump. My pipe froze last week from the well to the tank and I was still able to use water because my tank was still half full.

 

[Pettrix]

I only use the well pump to fill a tank. Then the tank gravity feeds my pressure pump that feeds the house. This way there is much lower pressure needed from the pump and the pipe coming up sits at a lower pressure. Seems unfair to make the pump push the water all the way up the well plus pressurize it to the house and cycle constantly when in use. Too much strain and too many starts. If my pump fails I still have water in the tank that can be used until I fix the pump. My pipe froze last week from the well to the tank and I was still able to use water because my tank was still half full.

Thanks for the info!

Why did your pipe freeze? Was it not buried deep enough?

I also was told that installing a larger pressure tank puts less wear & tear on the well pump as it doesn't have to turn on as often. Some even recommended installing TWO pressure tanks (85 gallons each) or one large 120 gallon tank like this one:

Amtrol Well-X-Trol 119 Gallon Water System Pressure Tank with Composite Base - WX-350D - WX-350D

Also with the larger tank, if your power goes off, you still have pressurized water available to the home.

 

[turnkey4099]

Need some input on a future well water system. Well depth is around 375 feet with static water coming in at around 220 feet. 30-50GPM is what I am looking at.

They wanted to install the pressure tank in a shed or garage but I don't like that because of the cold and the freezing winter temps might freeze the lines in a shed. Also in summer it can get really hot in the shed and I don't want hot water coming through the pipes when I turn on the cold water.

1 - Is it possible to have the well water line run underground at a 4 foot depth (required 2 feet but I prefer 4 feet for those extra cold winters) from the well to the homes mechanical room by running the water line underneath the slab and then making a 45 degree turn and coming up through the slab? Of course the plumbing line would be installed first prior to the pouring of the slab-on-grade.

2 - I am looking to get a 85 Gallon pressure tank that the line would install to inside of the mechanical room of the home. Any advice on that?

3 - Well Pump: 1.5 HP Goulds Conventional. Is that a good pump?

4 - They asked about if I wanted an "upgrade" to a :10SQE 15-330 Groundfos Set w 2/gal pressure tank & CU30 - Not sure what that is about?

5 - What about installing shut off valves in the system? If so, where would be a good spot to install a shut off valve (prior to the pressure tank)?

6 - What about installing water meter gauge so I can measure usage?

1. No problem installing the tank wherever you want assuming it isn't at a gross elevation difference from the well. Why people put that tank near the well has alwys been a puzzle to me. My neighbor did that and then had to basically build a shed inside his shed to get it will enough insulated. Don't even think about putting it in a 'well house' - another bad holdover from way back.

3. Gould's is one of the leading lights on pumps.

4. Not familiar with that "upgrade" but it sounds like it might be a "constant pressure" system. Those are becoming more common all the time.

5. Put any controll equipment, electric, switches, shutoffs, etc. as near the tank as you can - makes for a neat workmanlike arragement and when work is needed on the system it all right there. One shut-off valve right at the tank on the exit pipe after any tees, drains, pressure switch tap, etc. Other shut offs where the supply pipe enters any building (other than the one the tank is in).

When it comes to plumbing in the Water heater, pipe the outlet of the TPRV (Temp/pressure Relief Valve) to a safe drain - if one ever opens it lis likely not to close or at least leak afterwards. You local codes may require it to be plumbed to the outside - best solution. Do not run it into your septic system.

Harry K

 

[Raspy]

Thanks for the info!

Why did your pipe freeze? Was it not buried deep enough?

I also was told that installing a larger pressure tank puts less wear & tear on the well pump as it doesn't have to turn on as often. Some even recommended installing TWO pressure tanks (85 gallons each) or one large 120 gallon tank like this one:

Amtrol Well-X-Trol 119 Gallon Water System Pressure Tank with Composite Base - WX-350D - WX-350D

Also with the larger tank, if your power goes off, you still have pressurized water available to the home.

My pipe froze because it's only about 2' down and we've had very cold weather. I also had a small leak that went unnoticed until it drained the tank while we were away. The ground was wet and I think it aggravated the problem.

A larger pressure tank will reduce the starts the pump makes, but it probably won't give you emergency water because you won't realize the pump has a problem until the pressure drops. At that point the bladder will have pushed all or most of the water out of the tank. The tank air pressure will probably be set just below the cut-in pressure. So pressure lower than cut-in means no water left.

The best idea is to probably have some emergency water stored. This can get you through a power failure too. Fortunately, my tank is above the house, so I can gravity feed if needed. It's a non pressurized holding tank. As long as it has water in it, I have water available. The pressure pump just makes it work better at the house. We could pull the well pump out and have it apart for a couple of days and still have water pressure at the faucets. I can also run the well on a small generator because it only draws 10 amps at 120 volts. No need to have a large pump if it's only filling a storage tank.

There are a lot of ways to make good systems.

 

[lew61]

I have had two Groundfos dual ac/dc deep well pumps (solar power potential) and have been extremely happy with the quality. Our water is very mineralized, yet the first pump lasted just shy of 12 years pumping from a depth of 230ft into two 900 gal tanks ~100 foot up a hill. Danish made pumps.

 

[turnkey4099]

<snip>

Be sure you put a pressure relief before your first shutoff valve at the pressure tank. Relief, valve, union, pressure tank. Or just leave that valve out. Put one after the pressure tank to isolate the house. Also be sure you install check valves at no more than about 25' intervals all the way down the casing and hang the whole setup on a VERY substantial rope. Yacht braid in about 3/8" worked for me and I have PVC pipe all the way down with a total weight of only about 100 lbs. If there is a problem, or the pump gets dropped, it's nice to be able to pull hard on it for retrieval. I dropped mine and was very lucky to get it back.

<snip>

I only use the well pump to fill a tank. Then the tank gravity feeds my pressure pump that feeds the house. This way there is much lower pressure needed from the pump and the pipe coming up sits at a lower pressure. Seems unfair to make the pump push the water all the way up the well plus pressurize it to the house and cycle constantly when in use. Too much strain and too many starts. If my pump fails I still have water in the tank that can be used until I fix the pump. My pipe froze last week from the well to the tank and I was still able to use water because my tank was still half full.

I'm curious about the following: Why the pressure relief valves? Every tank I have ever worke on has spigot right at the tank and that will release any pressure. Or are you refering to one that protects against over pressure? If so, the one on, or near, the Water heater handles that. In any case only one is needed in the system.

What is the purpose of the multiple checkvalves on the down pipe in the well? I never heard of doing that. Things probably changed since I haven't had much to do with these systems for many a year now after drilling my own well to get off the community one. I somehow wound up as the "unpaid maintencance man" for that system until I got tired of trying to patch togethr worn out crap.

Your "pump to tank and then pressure pump for the supply" is a great system. Particularly nice if the well is much lower than the using point - takes a great strain off the pump.

Harry K

 

[Raspy]

Turnkey,

The pressure relief valve at the tank can be set just higher than the set pressure on the well pump. It just keeps the pump from dead heading or can relieve some pressure from the water heater if needed. The pressure relief at the water heater is beyond the cold water shutoff and is commonly set at 150 PSI. It's only job is to protect the water heater.

The multiple check valves, on the well pump discharge that comes up the casing, keeps any voids from happening. Water can only be "sucked" about 32'. If you use the well pump to pressurize the system and all faucets are turned off with no pressure at the faucets, the water can trickle back down the pipe past the foot valve and leave an open section of pipe with just a vacuum in it and no water. When the pump comes on it can slam a head of water against a closed valve. If there are multiple check valves there is no section longer, vertically, than 25 feet. So no voids. At that very low pressure, the diaphragm tank is closed and it may not be near the void, so it can't help with the hammer.

Some well guys want partially open ball valves on the riser too. I can't see doing that as I don't want a restriction on that pipe.

The well pump is the hardest part to work on, it's electrical connections are under water all the time and the pipe near it sees the most pressure of any in the system. I want to make it's job as easy as possible and the amperage draw there as light as possible.

I set the pump in myself and it was not a fun job. Now I'd do it differently, I guess, but at the time I followed standard practices and it was a big job. We had some interesting problems along the way. I dropped it and barely got it back out. It was totaled, the wire was ruined and my wife was injured trying to stop the fall. The rope that was recommended to us was seriously under sized. Strong enough on paper to hold the weight, but not near big enough for pulling the pump after a problem. My derek was made from three sections of 1 1/4 inch pipe, set up as a tripod. The lifting rope went around a pulley hanging at the top of the derek, back to a turning block bolted to the well head and out to the hitch on my truck. We used schedule 80 threaded PVC with brass couplings and spring check valves. I bolted a stainless steel marine cleat to the inside of the well casing to tie off the hanging rope. With the top fitting on the riser pipe set into the pitless adapter, I pulled on the rope by hand hard enough to relieve almost all the load on the pipe, then tied it off on the cleat. A cleat allows you to tension the rope and tie it off reliably at a very precise point. Then you can remove it easily when needed. The well guys recommended poly line or 1/4" nylon. I used 3/8" non stretch yacht braid. Far far stronger.

 

[TheGoose]

Hmmm...some very bad advice in this thread.


Never put any checkvalves on the pump other than the one installed in the pump head, and never use poly to come up through the slab unless it's just a sleeve. Poly is not rated, as far as I know, to be used in inside plumbing, plus I've seen it split and splitting in the slab would be a very bad thing.

Never use rope or anything other than the drop pipe. If you wish to use poly, get 200# rated poly, or at least 160# poly. I prefer and use sch 80 PVC with stainless or brass couplings. Don't use torque arrestors. Do install a pressure relief valve, DO NOT install a shut-off valve between the pump and tank.

The Goulds system is a very good pump. The grundfos is a constant pressure. It has a sensor and a computer and will speed the pump up or down to match usage and attempt to keep the pressure constant. A lot of people like them, some don't. IMO, it is best to just stay with the old style. Less to break down and cheaper to fix when it does.

Get the largest Well-X-Trol tank you can, they are the best in the market. Ask your driller about the other questions, he will have to most knowledge of anybody. Get a 2nd or 3rd opinion if you don't agree with something he says.

JMO but I am a Lic. WW driller/Pump Installer

 

[TheGoose]

You did the exact opposite thing that you are trying to avoid. When you use the pump at low pressure you're drawing maxiumum amps. When you increase the pressure your amps will drop and the "strain" on the pump/motor is less. Everything on a submersible pump is built to handle the pressures and flows that the pump is generating. Your pump runs the exact same amount of time, but you likely decreased the number or times it starts/stops, which is a good thing I suppose. The problem is that unless you are checking your storage tank every few days how will you know when you get a problem? Plus, instead of having one pump to keep up with now you have two, plus a separate set of contactors and wiring to keep the storage tank full.

Having a 2nd storage tank is mostly for people who have a low yeild well. If your well produces enough water your better off having only one pump/tank/switch to deal with. If it works for you then it's good I suppose but I don't think you're really "saving" the pump.

Adding the extra check valves actually amplifies the water hammer problem. If any one of the check valves goes out you are creating the same void you spoke of, and having multiple check valves multiples the odds of that happening. One check valve, at the pump discharge, is sufficient. If it goes out, then it needs to be changed. Adding more check valves does not solve the problem.

Turnkey,

The pressure relief valve at the tank can be set just higher than the set pressure on the well pump. It just keeps the pump from dead heading or can relieve some pressure from the water heater if needed. The pressure relief at the water heater is beyond the cold water shutoff and is commonly set at 150 PSI. It's only job is to protect the water heater.

The multiple check valves, on the well pump discharge that comes up the casing, keeps any voids from happening. Water can only be "sucked" about 32'. If you use the well pump to pressurize the system and all faucets are turned off with no pressure at the faucets, the water can trickle back down the pipe past the foot valve and leave an open section of pipe with just a vacuum in it and no water. When the pump comes on it can slam a head of water against a closed valve. If there are multiple check valves there is no section longer, vertically, than 25 feet. So no voids. At that very low pressure, the diaphragm tank is closed and it may not be near the void, so it can't help with the hammer.

Some well guys want partially open ball valves on the riser too. I can't see doing that as I don't want a restriction on that pipe.

The well pump is the hardest part to work on, it's electrical connections are under water all the time and the pipe near it sees the most pressure of any in the system. I want to make it's job as easy as possible and the amperage draw there as light as possible.

I set the pump in myself and it was not a fun job. Now I'd do it differently, I guess, but at the time I followed standard practices and it was a big job. We had some interesting problems along the way. I dropped it and barely got it back out. It was totaled, the wire was ruined and my wife was injured trying to stop the fall. The rope that was recommended to us was seriously under sized. Strong enough on paper to hold the weight, but not near big enough for pulling the pump after a problem. My derek was made from three sections of 1 1/4 inch pipe, set up as a tripod. The lifting rope went around a pulley hanging at the top of the derek, back to a turning block bolted to the well head and out to the hitch on my truck. We used schedule 80 threaded PVC with brass couplings and spring check valves. I bolted a stainless steel marine cleat to the inside of the well casing to tie off the hanging rope. With the top fitting on the riser pipe set into the pitless adapter, I pulled on the rope by hand hard enough to relieve almost all the load on the pipe, then tied it off on the cleat. A cleat allows you to tension the rope and tie it off reliably at a very precise point. Then you can remove it easily when needed. The well guys recommended poly line or 1/4" nylon. I used 3/8" non stretch yacht braid. Far far stronger.

 

[Egon]

Run a plastic casing pipe from the wellhead to the inside of house. Larger will make it easier. Just use a natural bend in the plastic pipe when coming into the house. Run the pressure pipe inside thecasing. No problems with the pitiless adapter at four feet. It can be set much deeper with no problems. Also consider a hydrant at the well head ??

The pressure tank helps seat the pump check valve when cutoff pressure is reached. And get the largest tank that fits.

Keep the plumbing simple.

With all them check valves drill a hole in the flapper so it can act as a two way check!

Don't do this to the pump check valve. That has to remain a one way valve.

 

[Bikewanderer]

OP - these are some pretty simple questions you are asking. If you are going to do this yourself you need to know better what you are doing. I have a book on private water systems that I don't need anymore. My attempts at drilling a well failed.

Send me a PM - you need to buy this thing from me. It has good information and other stuff too like treatment of the water and such. I can't find a link to the book and am not at home to look. It's published and sold through one of the state extension offices - maybe missouri?

 

[radioman]

You mentioned you dont like idea of tank in the shed or garage. Do you have a basement? If not then that is probably why as he may not want to take the time to build a pumphouse and insulate it. You also don't state which state you are in and whats frost line in your area? IMHO, a larger tank lets you have a bit longer constant pressure before it starts to kick in, but you need to size pump with it too or it will take too long to build up pressure again. FYI - having a pump in the house in basement is both a blessing and curse. Its a blessing as you can keep an eye on it and know if you have a leak or running toilet in house when sleeping. Its a curse as you can hear it running during the day and all you want is a some peace and quiet until you get used to it. FYI- I grew up in a house like this.
If you want to meter your water usage - just be prepared for a sticker shock to get one ... over 500 bucks.

 

[dave1949]

My pitless adapter is down about 5', it should as deep as the water line leaving the well in any case. I have a drain-down valve installed at the pitless adapter that allows draining the line between the pressure tank and the well. The driller suggested that for the odd time we would want to be away for a while in the winter. The drain-down valve is opened and closed with a 8' long tee handle made up from black iron pipe that has a union at the valve end with a slot cut in it that matches the valve stem "handle".

To drain that line, I would shut off the pump electricity, drain the water from the pressure tank by opening a spigot on the house side of the pressure tank, there is also a boiler drain valve installed on the well side of the check valve, leave that open and then remove the well cap and open the drain-down valve.

 

[L355SS]

I have a spring fed 1000 gal holding tank situated 900' from my house. A 3/4 hp above ground pump with 80 gl pressure tank there pushes the water to the house (thru 1 1/2 sch 40 pvc) to the input to a small 1/2 hp pump with pressure tank. This 1/2 hp pump (in the basement) is adjusted to come on and stay on when you have any significant water usage (specifically taking a shower) so when showering, the water pressure remains constant 60 psi. Shut off the water and the pump continues pumping till it reaches 65 psi shutoff pressure. As Radioman mentioned, you have to get used to the drone of the pump, but I personally like to know that the pump is cycling off (being the resident unpaid plumber).
The holding tank allows any dust sized particles in the water to settle out before being pumped, through a whole house filter, to the house.
My neighbor has 200 ft well (with submersible pump) and pumps water to a 500 gl holding tank (in insulated shed) that is used to settle out the impurities, and a pump there to push the water to the house. The tank gravity feeds water to his horse stable to provide water during any pump failures.
Dennis

 

[jinman]

Pettrix, before any discussion of insulation, we need to know where you are located; at least a general location. Here in North Central Texas, a well insulated small well house/utility shed is often built around wells. The drillers like for you to leave the wellhead out of the well house for pulling the pump and other maintenance chores. My well house has a little removable compartment over the well head. My well house is 2x4 construction on a slab I poured beside the well. I insulated the walls and roof with fiberglass and then covered it with wafer board sheathing. I can keep temperatures above freezing in my well house with a 200 watt bulb, but I use a little portable heater that is set to come on when temperatures drop to around 40 degrees inside the well house. Most of the time, it never even comes on unless there is sustained cold weather.

Lots of people use bladder tanks here, but mine is an 85 gallon galvanized tank. The main line from the pump runs to a checkvalve before going past the pressure switch and into the tank. On top of the well head, there's a schrader air valve. Down about 20' on the pipe, there's a pinhole that allows water to spray out anytime the pump is running. It just flows back down the inside of the well liner. When the pump shuts off, the 20' column of water drains through the pinhole and the schrader valve opens to allow air back into the pipe and relieve head pressure. When the tank pressure gets low, and the pump comes on, a column of air is pushed into the tank. This collects at the top of the tank and builds up until a tank mounted float valve opens an air bleed valve. This action means there is a constant amount of air in the tank. It's an old system that works very well.

 

[TheGoose]

And down here in S. Texas there are many wells with no wellhouse at all...tank and pump and everything out in the open air. So the methods vary from location to location.

Pettrix, before any discussion of insulation, we need to know where you are located; at least a general location. Here in North Central Texas, a well insulated small well house/utility shed is often built around wells. The drillers like for you to leave the wellhead out of the well house for pulling the pump and other maintenance chores. My well house has a little removable compartment over the well head. My well house is 2x4 construction on a slab I poured beside the well. I insulated the walls and roof with fiberglass and then covered it with wafer board sheathing. I can keep temperatures above freezing in my well house with a 200 watt bulb, but I use a little portable heater that is set to come on when temperatures drop to around 40 degrees inside the well house. Most of the time, it never even comes on unless there is sustained cold weather.

Lots of people use bladder tanks here, but mine is an 85 gallon galvanized tank. The main line from the pump runs to a checkvalve before going past the pressure switch and into the tank. On top of the well head, there's a schrader air valve. Down about 20' on the pipe, there's a pinhole that allows water to spray out anytime the pump is running. It just flows back down the inside of the well liner. When the pump shuts off, the 20' column of water drains through the pinhole and the schrader valve opens to allow air back into the pipe and relieve head pressure. When the tank pressure gets low, and the pump comes on, a column of air is pushed into the tank. This collects at the top of the tank and builds up until a tank mounted float valve opens an air bleed valve. This action means there is a constant amount of air in the tank. It's an old system that works very well.

 

[Egon]

If the OP has a submersible pump he'll not hear it. Unless he puts his ear to the tank.

Sounds like the OP was building on a slab. If so, with downhole pump, putting a large tank like jinman's in takes little space.:thumbsup: Don't need no well house or check valve above ground.

Simple layout and installation. Find lots like it in colder areas. Makes well work much easier.

 

[dave1949]

The insulating techniques for a "Shallow Frost-protected Foundation" can be applied to giving buried water lines some freeze resistance. Basically, shield the lines with foundation grade styrofoam insulation sheets that are covered with ~18" of dirt. This prevents the frost from penetrating into the soil below the insulation.

 

[nybirdman]

First;never heard of inline check valves.One on the pump(submersible) and one at the pressure tank,thats it.
Second;with a sub pump you can push water a long way,with a jet pump(above ground)yes you can only pull so much.
Third;are you useing 30-50gpm?No 1.5 hp pump is going to do that.
Four:insulate your lines from the well to the building
Fifth:trust your well driller ,he knows the area and the best systems
Sixth;average use is 30gals per person per day(wash,drinking,showeres ect.)