Welding supply store

[Arc weld]

If the OP had known Outershield 71M is flux-cored wire and not mentioned Mig wire, the counter guy might have brought him Outershield 71M which is the same type of wire as Esab Dual-Shield which is also flux-cored wire. The counter guy may have just been confirming what he wanted. The OP saying no to flux-core and wanting Dual-Shield is another confusing and contradictory statement. People are always complaining about how the parts guys don't know anything or how to look anything up and always get the order wrong etc, etc. Well in this case the customer was the cause of the confusion. I deal with this stuff everyday and just like the counter guy we aren't mind readers that can know exactly what the customer wants when the customer is giving confusing details. I've had requests asking for .035" contact tips or pictures of nozzles with no numbers or any markings and am supposed to just know what make and model gun they go on. Sometimes I'll get a part number and they say it's for a different brand than it actually is. Sometimes it's easy to figure out and sometimes not. It's not always the person trying to help you that is causing the confusion. I guess because I've been there I'm sticking up for the counter guy.

 

[Willie B]

I know what "Dual Shield" is. Like Kleenex is "tissue". By the way, tissue has so many meanings, Kleenex is more descriptive. Several manufacturers offer a product very similar to Dual Shield.

I get irritated when people refer to 110 or 220 in electricity. If my home has 220 Volts, something is wrong. In this country, and elsewhere we hope for 240 Volts, we slice the sandwich in half, so we use 120 Volts.

Nonetheless, I've never heard a court decision that stuffed wire isn't metal. Directly translated; MIG stands for Metal Inert Gas. I guess we need MFCIG, or something more clever than I was qualified to come up with.

Until then, MIG works for Gas Shielded Flux Core. And yes it is wonderful, except for those worm tracks.

Willie

 

[tkevan]

I know what "Dual Shield" is. Like Kleenex is "tissue". By the way, tissue has so many meanings, Kleenex is more descriptive. Several manufacturers offer a product very similar to Dual Shield.


Until then, MIG works for Gas Shielded Flux Core. And yes it is wonderful, except for those worm tracks.

Willie

Technically, I believe Gas Shielded Flux Core welding is MAG, not MIG. Isn't CO2 an active gas?:laughing: Even though I've read plenty of sites that list it as MIG welding.

 

[Arc weld]

MAG is a term more used in Europe when using CO2 shielding with solid wire( MIG/MAG). I really think the confusion comes because there are some small wire feed machines that they refer to as flux-core only. In this case they mean self-shielded flux-core like Innershield. Some of these machines can be converted to Mig using shielding gas. A lot of people don't realize there is also gas shielded flux-core (dual-shield). Perhaps a better way to note the differences is by using AWS designations. GMAW (gas metal arc welding) refers to Mig (or metal-core), FCAW (flux-core arc welding) refers to flux-core but can be self-shielded or gas shielded. It is common to do a Mig root pass with solid wire and then do the fill and cap with flux-core. A good reason for a dual wire feeder. Metal-core is considered GMAW because there isn't flux per say in the wire and no slag is left on the weld. Some refer to it as MCAW for clarification but it's not an official designation. Gas shielded flux-core can use mix gas or CO2 depending on the wire.

 

[ultrarunner]

I get irritated when people refer to 110 or 220 in electricity. If my home has 220 Volts, something is wrong. In this country, and elsewhere we hope for 240 Volts, we slice the sandwich in half, so we use 120 Volts.

Willie

It is a carry over from when appliances were 110 and 220 volts.

At the cabin the power was so weak the only way the black and white TV would work is with a Buck/Boost transformer...

 

[joeu235]

MAG is a term more used in Europe when using CO2 shielding with solid wire( MIG/MAG). I really think the confusion comes because there are some small wire feed machines that they refer to as flux-core only. In this case they mean self-shielded flux-core like Innershield. Some of these machines can be converted to Mig using shielding gas. A lot of people don't realize there is also gas shielded flux-core (dual-shield). Perhaps a better way to note the differences is by using AWS designations. GMAW (gas metal arc welding) refers to Mig (or metal-core), FCAW (flux-core arc welding) refers to flux-core but can be self-shielded or gas shielded. It is common to do a Mig root pass with solid wire and then do the fill and cap with flux-core. A good reason for a dual wire feeder. Metal-core is considered GMAW because there isn't flux per say in the wire and no slag is left on the weld. Some refer to it as MCAW for clarification but it's not an official designation. Gas shielded flux-core can use mix gas or CO2 depending on the wire.

I might not be a CWI, but I do know how to read people. And the counter guy did't know what he was doing.

 

[yomax4]

A good counter guy should be able to set up, run and train on anything in the store. Also should be able to assist in filler metal selections. If he was unsure, he could have at least asked what the application was and at least offered up a couple of options. That's how it was when I was a counter guy in the 80's and 90's. Now days gas is king and with good reason, Very low margins on hardgoods due to competition on the web.

 

[Arc weld]

A lot of the problem is lack of training or not wanting to pay to have someone with more knowledge. The counter guy in this case may have been unsure so when Outershield 71M Mig was mentioned asking if the customer meant flux-core was a legitimate question. Maybe they didn't have Outershield 71M but had something similar. With all the new technology in welding customer service seems to have taken a nose dive. I don't know of any welding supplies that have a demo room anymore. Lincoln used to have a shop here where you could try out any of their machines and filler metals. Miller has facility where you can try out machines but you have to set it up with the rep. I think for home owners and hobbyists a demo room would be a great way to help sell more machines and show the differences between them.

 

[Arc weld]

It is a carry over from when appliances were 110 and 220 volts.

At the cabin the power was so weak the only way the black and white TV would work is with a Buck/Boost transformer...

110. 115, 120 and 220, 230, 240 have all been used and 99% of the time are interchangeable. Most welding machines allow for 10% line compensation so no problem.

 

[Willie B]

110. 115, 120 and 220, 230, 240 have all been used and 99% of the time are interchangeable. Most welding machines allow for 10% line compensation so no problem.

I'm in my 49th year as an electrician in VT. 240 at the transformer has been goal voltage for power companies all my life, and I believe before. Among US built, or devices built for USA consumption, I doubt anyone living was alive when 110 volts was design source. Edison in the 1880 era used 90 Volts as his standard. You are correct, voluntary compliance says a motor sold for use in the USA shall tolerate 10% + or -. Motors designed for 230 volts will then run on 207 - 253 volts. 208 volt systems can then power motors designed for 230, but delivering power to them with as little voltage loss as possible is expensive.

Motors run cooler at or 10% above design voltage than at lower than designed. As voltage decreases, torque falls dramatically, magnetic choke effect diminishes, and BTUs skyrocket, sometimes exceeding the cooling system's capacity.

While 110. 115, 120 and 220, 230, 240 have all been used, and are common language, I'd sure rather have 240 than 220.

 

[Willie B]

As for counter personnel, they are usually not hired as instructors. Those able to spec their own welding supplies need someone able to pick, or order. Those who are learning, or never will learn become a liability should the counter person offer too much advice.

I had a conversation today with a counter man. Esab Dual Shield is more expensive than the Lincoln product. I asked if anyone had mentioned a preference. He explained that the engineering standard usually specified for building framing is a direct quote from the Dual Shield spec. Lincoln is phrased slightly different. No real liability, he wasn't telling me what to use, he wasn't telling me how to do it.

When I first wanted to set up for Dual Shield no one was willing to tell me how. Even Miller wasn't willing to say what I would need. Lacking knowledge, I melted my stock weldcraft gun. Switching to a Bernard 400 amp gun solved numerous problems. I'm now up to four guns for one welder; spool gun for aluminum, little short gun for .027" wire, the stock M25 Weldcraft for .030, and .035 wire, and the Bernard Howitzer for .045 Dual Shield.

My theory is that welding supply stores are in the merchandising business. They want sales, anything else interferes with profit. Counter personnel have to walk the line between being helpful, and efficient, and becoming under qualified, uninsured instructors. Meanwhile, a professional customer overhears the counter man trying to teach a beginner how to compete with the pro, he has offended his best customer.

I think I understand why upper management doesn't want people trying to be expert.

As for not knowing what Dual Shield is, that seems a bigger concern.

 

[tkevan]

MAG is a term more used in Europe when using CO2 shielding with solid wire( MIG/MAG).

Since this thread has diverged to the "technicalities", Europe is correct. If you're using CO2 or O2 to weld, you're "Technically" MAG welding, not MIG welding. Those gasses, even when mixed with Argon or Helium (the two Inert gasses typically used in welding) are Active gasses that react with the weld pool. But, hey, that's all "technicalities". Even Lincoln and Miller call it MIG wire.

 

[Willie B]

Since this thread has diverged to the "technicalities", Europe is correct. If you're using CO2 or O2 to weld, you're "Technically" MAG welding, not MIG welding. Those gasses, even when mixed with Argon or Helium (the two Inert gasses typically used in welding) are Active gasses that react with the weld pool. But, hey, that's all "technicalities". Even Lincoln and Miller call it MIG wire.

Noted, but use the wrong gas, see how it performs.

 

[tkevan]

Noted, but use the wrong gas, see how it performs.

Yep. Actually saw a demonstration of pure Argon attempted on ferrous metal. Actually not as awful as I expected. Bob Moffatt over at Weld.com did a video. My theory is we call it MIG because CO2 is inert at normal temps, and only becomes Active when it hits the arc plasma. (according to Lincoln). True Inert gasses are the Noble gasses. Again, just technicalities.

 

[Arc weld]

Since this thread has diverged to the "technicalities", Europe is correct. If you're using CO2 or O2 to weld, you're "Technically" MAG welding, not MIG welding. Those gasses, even when mixed with Argon or Helium (the two Inert gasses typically used in welding) are Active gasses that react with the weld pool. But, hey, that's all "technicalities". Even Lincoln and Miller call it MIG wire.

It looks like Mag is mostly used when straight CO2 is used as most shielding gas has a much higher percentage of argon.

 

[joeu235]

I have worked for a high tech semiconductor company for many years. The industry lingo is to call N2, O2, CO2, etc inert gasses when they really should say non-toxic. Inert gasses are like He or Ar. Toxic are like SiH4 or Cl2.

But its not a good way to make friends to walk around going "ACTUALLY, its a non-toxic gas"

There's nothing wrong with using industry lingo around the working man but knowing when to use the correct terminology around the PhD.

 

[pgk]

Time to pick a different Welding supply company. Chances are they have a few large commercial gas accounts and could give a darn about the little guy.. They make most of their profits on gas for sure...

Pete

 

[Willie B]

Time to pick a different Welding supply company. Chances are they have a few large commercial gas accounts and could give a darn about the little guy.. They make most of their profits on gas for sure...

Pete

If you are speaking to me, I live 22 miles from the nearest. In my life it has been acquired numerous times. It was Grady Welding supply, Merriam-Graves, Airgas, now Air Liquide. Next closest, a few miles farther is Maine Oxy, they acquired Northeast Welding, a one store business that popped up, then was acquired a couple years later. Other than on line, or delivery a week later, I don't really have choices.

Times have changed, or did I learn?????...... In my youth I could ask about an acetylene/oxygen set, I'd get a response that if I had to ask price, I couldn't afford, (they didn't know my buying power at 19 years of age was greater than today) Now, I ask about torches, they address me as sir, or the long term employees call me Bill, they research a question I might have. Airgas has always employed good people. It has always been their corporate attitude that offends me. I have accounts with numerous vendors. All start counting overdue as the day the monthly statement is mailed. Many give discounts for ten days or less payment. Airgas often sends the overdue notices before the statement. They make snotty phone calls if I buy a three dollar item on the first, but thirty days later, I haven't yet received the statement.

These days, Airgas will solve problems with newly purchased equipment. They have a welding savant who will come to me to resolve a problem. Nobody will ever like their attitude, but I can't fault their service. NO THEY WON'T TEACH YOU HOW.

 

[yomax4]

Counter guy could very well have been a stand in or substitute. May have been a new guy with no-one to ask. May have not known process or application so I give him a pass. I guess when a guy goes in to any store to buy, May want to bone up on the product a little as well prior to. I was an 8 year counter guy when I was coming up many years ago and I remember when I was new. Frightening as ****.

 

[crazyal]

I have worked for a high tech semiconductor company for many years. The industry lingo is to call N2, O2, CO2, etc inert gasses when they really should say non-toxic. Inert gasses are like He or Ar. Toxic are like SiH4 or Cl2.

But its not a good way to make friends to walk around going "ACTUALLY, its a non-toxic gas"

There's nothing wrong with using industry lingo around the working man but knowing when to use the correct terminology around the PhD.

Wow, if you went into the fab I work at and called O2 an inert gas you probably would be walked out the door. N2, sure but not O2.