quicksandfarmer
Elite Member
Toilet valves are designed to prevent backflow. That's why they spray water all over the inside of the tank. Even if they did they'd be sucking water from the tank which is (relatively) clean and not the bowl.
Water Pressure
- Thread starter davek78063
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Toilet valves are designed to prevent backflow. That's why they spray water all over the inside of the tank. Even if they did they'd be sucking water from the tank which is (relatively) clean and not the bowl.
quicksandfarmer
Elite Member
Problem is it's not the guy with the booster pump who needs a check valve, it's everyone else.
Egon
Epic Contributor
wagne223
Platinum Member
In my opinion, this is your easiest solution as long as you understand that you need to maintain your cistern. Some quick points.
Sunlight allows algae growth. Dark containers or containers in a dark area are best.
Heat and Sunlight cause more rapid chlorine evaporation. If not maintained, bacteria will grow.
Be sure all vents are screened or have a foam filter. Frogs, insects and other critters will get in otherwise.
Lastly, and the most painful.........You will still be involved in the repairs, upgrades and issues that will plague the poorly designed community water supply.
turnkey4099
Elite Member
Of course if there is a real concern about back feed, then every installation would need the check valve.
Might be a problem ensuring that there was such.
OP
davek78063
Member
I have a large black tank. I think it is 1500 gals. I do live in TX so it does get hot. I do have a backflow preventer on my property. It is now required for all new construction. A few folks in the neighborhood are grandfathered but most do have one.
All the comments about putting a booster pump makes me wonder if someone hasn't done that and is causing some of the issues. As far as the solution to put a tank in the upper section that is really a non starter. First it would be expensive and the costs would be spread across all residents, not to mention the current board barely recognizes there is an issue much less inclined to spend the money to fix it right. Secondly there is no place to put it. There is no neighborhood owned land to put it on and I doubt anyone would allow it. If I had 15k I didn't know what to do with, I would dig my own well
.PILOON
Super Star Member
My opinion is that no reservoir is needed.
The complaint is not lack of water but pressure is the issue.
The elevation is what results in lower pressures as the system pump was not rated for that.
With a booster pump the system main will be your reservoir, however for system protection I would install a back flow check valve that being to protect whole system possible contamination (and liability possible issues).
I suggest any holding tank that you might consider will merely add $$ and maintenance issues.
At most a booster that incorporates a small 'bladder tank' should do the trick.
Bladder tank's main contribution would be to modulate pressure hi/lows just as when used on wells.
The complaint is not lack of water but pressure is the issue.
The elevation is what results in lower pressures as the system pump was not rated for that.
With a booster pump the system main will be your reservoir, however for system protection I would install a back flow check valve that being to protect whole system possible contamination (and liability possible issues).
I suggest any holding tank that you might consider will merely add $$ and maintenance issues.
At most a booster that incorporates a small 'bladder tank' should do the trick.
Bladder tank's main contribution would be to modulate pressure hi/lows just as when used on wells.
turnkey4099
Elite Member
I already sta ted that in such a system EVERY connection needs one. How to ensure that is beyond me.
ultrarunner
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Here they are checked/certified annually for a fee... failure to perform inspection and/or repair is grounds for disconnect.
OP
davek78063
Member
If we just put a pressure booster on wouldn't it eventually outstrip demand? If we were only getting 40 psi in and pumping 60 psi out I would think eventually we would outstrip the supply in the line; particularly if everyone started doing that. In fact I wonder if that isn't part of the issue, we have had a number of houses built (with a number of lots still to be built upon)in the past few years and the overall performance has gradually decreased.
As for the cost of the storage tank, I already have that as well as the pressure tank. Both are 10 yrs old. I assume the pressure tank will still be operable though if it isn't would only be a $200. The only reason it hasn't been connected is 1. I was originally quoted $2500 in parts/labor to connect a pump. Approx $1100 of that was some fancy pump with brass fittings I was told I needed and $1400 in labor. At this point thanks to all the help from this board I think I can do it myself. I just want to make sure whatever I do install is sustainable and doesn't become a headache. I also found a chlorine additive system for ~$300. My thought is that with the 1500 gal tank, I would be recycling the water every couple weeks.
Egon
Epic Contributor
If there is a constant water supply all the system needs is one main pump whose discharge is pressure regulated ( different ways to do that ) and a pressure regulator at each individual service point.
ovrszd
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I keep getting this gut feeling that this organization is poorly monitored. I doubt anyone knows how each user is equipped. So what we have is an "every man for himself" situation. Those in power probably know this. Some of those in power probably have systems that everybody else would oppose. But they have good water pressure/flow. This organization is going to implode. There's going to be much gnashing of teeth....
OP
davek78063
Member
Very prophetic. There is a lot of animosity between the board and residents on the upper end of the neighborhood mostly because they are incompetent and arrogant. I honestly have not met people (the board) who were so sure they were right but were so wrong. One example is at one point one of the pumps got so hot it melted the PVC but rather than ask the question why did the pump get hot they just decided to put in metal pipe and proceeded to burn up a $5000 pump. Long story short, the upper end used to have adequate pressure until the construction of 6-8 new homes. Now the board wants to pretend the issue doesn't exist. Mostly I think because it would be very costly to correct. To compound matters the Pres and Treasurer are husband and wife but refuse the conflict of interest despite the fact that the husband is a lawyer.
At this point I am tired of arguing with them and just want to get adequate pressure. I am trying to determine if I need the storage tank or can I just hook the pump directly up to the water company. My fear is that if i try to boost the input pressure I am receiving from the neighborhood from 40 (I actually had 30 PSI at the house today) to say 60 I am afraid I would suck the input pipe dry or severely reduce the pressure for my neighbors, which I don't want to do, anytime the pump kicked on. That is why I initially purchased the water tank. However I do have concerns of maintaining water quality in the tank so if it isn't needed I would just assume not use it. Thanks again for all the replies.
PILOON
Super Star Member
I have been involved with lots of pump systems all involving varied elevations as most clients pumped water from our lake to their cottages and being a water front all the houses were uphill.
While not a plumber I do have an excellent wholesaler that aids me with the calculations and explained the theories involved.
It can be complicated, elevation, friction, yes, elbows, and pipe diameter.
Example if the piping is too small no matter how much HP the pump there will not be more pressure or volume.
All kinds of charts will determine the HP as well as the amount of impellors in a specific pump.
When I was in the city pressure was so low that I could not water the lawn. Simple I installed a booster. Volume was there, not pressure.
Might also add if there is any galvanized or black iron pipe anywhere in a system that is where you will introduce an eventual restriction and or failure.
You really want to go all brass or PEX for reliability. (Poly B was good but reacted with chemicals that some cities introduce in the system)
While not a plumber I do have an excellent wholesaler that aids me with the calculations and explained the theories involved.
It can be complicated, elevation, friction, yes, elbows, and pipe diameter.
Example if the piping is too small no matter how much HP the pump there will not be more pressure or volume.
All kinds of charts will determine the HP as well as the amount of impellors in a specific pump.
When I was in the city pressure was so low that I could not water the lawn. Simple I installed a booster. Volume was there, not pressure.
Might also add if there is any galvanized or black iron pipe anywhere in a system that is where you will introduce an eventual restriction and or failure.
You really want to go all brass or PEX for reliability. (Poly B was good but reacted with chemicals that some cities introduce in the system)
wagne223
Platinum Member
Personally, I would go with the storage tank for no other reason then this........
The current system is inadequate, not properly maintained and the overseers dont care. This means as time goes on issues are going to get worse and your water service WILL be interrupted.
From burned up pumps, different pipes or connections, check valves, and others using booster pumps, your service will be affected until you get overseers that care. Which may be never.
Length of interruption will probably be days or weeks as the overseers are incompetent.
At least with your tank, you will have a few days to a week worth of water on site.
ovrszd
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Add a float valve. As you use water the system will automatically refiil your supply. Doesn't matter at what pressure or flow rate. With this system it wouldn't require a huge tank. 500 gallons per day useage would equal 15K per month. A 500 gallon tank would easily keep up since it's always refilling. If your useage is a lot more just increase the tank size.
This method also makes you a good neighbor who isn't causing your neighbors problems.
wagne223
Platinum Member
Yes, float valve is the way to go. I think earlier discussions included having the tank auto fill with a float valve.
Although I did not mention it in that post, I assumed the float valve was part of the project.
Thanks for bringing it up again as you know what happens when we assume.
turnkey4099
Elite Member
YES!!! That is the solution. No fear of sucking the system dry, back flow, etc.
CADplans
Elite Member
I would add a pump and a tank, and set my own desired pressure,,
your pump will have no negative effect on the system,
Simple, and easy, a few hundred dollars,, it will be like having a drilled well, except you are using the supplied low pressure water as the well,,,
I have a well, and my own pump and tank,, We are happy with our pressure,,
your pump will have no negative effect on the system,
Simple, and easy, a few hundred dollars,, it will be like having a drilled well, except you are using the supplied low pressure water as the well,,,
I have a well, and my own pump and tank,, We are happy with our pressure,,
CADplans
Elite Member
As far as a "float" valve,, I would never consider such a thing,,
for a float valve to work, tie valve must be open to the atmosphere,, which will allow contamination in to the water,,
Our county preaches about the importance of having the water system sealed,,
the only contaminated home water systems are the open ones.
I had to attend a (highly recommended) meeting to listen to all the failures possible with water systems,,
It is amazing,, about 20% of the homes in our county have contaminated water.
for a float valve to work, tie valve must be open to the atmosphere,, which will allow contamination in to the water,,
Our county preaches about the importance of having the water system sealed,,
the only contaminated home water systems are the open ones.
I had to attend a (highly recommended) meeting to listen to all the failures possible with water systems,,
It is amazing,, about 20% of the homes in our county have contaminated water.
