Water In; Water Out

[Bird]

Alan, I have my doubts about the "need" for chlorination, but the folks who check mine every 4 months always do a chlorine test on the water in the final tank and the written report I get from them shows the chlorine level (I'm not sure, but I think they send a copy of that report to the county sanitarian also - I know they send him a copy of the annual service contract). Anyway, I drop two chlorine tablets (3" tablets) in the chlorinator the first of each month.

Bird

 

[jinman]

Dan, like so many things, someone is getting the gold mine and you are getting the shaft. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif I can't believe the prices you are paying for a septic system in NC. In TX, the county is the state (essentially) and you have fees that have to be paid to Public Works and the County Commissioner's Court Judge to get your permits. This is about $400 and the engineer's fees for my system was only $125. The engineer (an older gent) had to drive over 75 miles to do my site survey. I had drawn up my plan and he just took my copy of the drawing and stamped it for me so I could submit it to the county. The county issued me a permit to operate a "wastewater" facility. On installation day, the inspector showed up to check the system and was very personable and didn't ask for any changes to the work. I negotiated with the installer to let me backfill the hole around the tanks (because I knew I would do it right). He gave me a $125 discount and took it right off the top for the system.

I just cannot see where anyone can justify the costs you mentioned. Is it that NC wants to discourage any private septic system? I think I would spend a lot of time campaigning to see to it that the county/state officials did not get reelected. I bet they are former installers. What do you think. At any rate, I can tell you that so far I think my system is worth every penny I paid for it. You just made me even happier to know that it's a bargain here in TX. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif


JimI

 

[jinman]

Bird, I think my system was a little more expensive because of the concrete tanks and it was not a local (TX) design. Your system also combines two actions (aerator/chlorinator) into one large tank. I suspect these are the main costs involved.
I know several folks who have conventional systems on soil that perks and their cost was less than $2000, but that is rare in this area.
I think both you and your brother got good deals.
BTW- Did you treat it with dog food to get it started? That's what I did and it worked fine.

JimI

 

[Bird]

JimI, at the time my brother and I had out systems installed the engineer fee was $100, the soil analysis was $125 (both included in the installation costs), and the permit fee was $10 plus a $5 notary fee. However, our county has now gone to $400 for the permit. The "chlorinator" is not a part of the tank, it's nothing more than a perforated pipe set into what would look like a clean out access so that the water flowing from the treatment tank to the final (clean water) tank flows over those tablets. And dog food? Never heard of that. All 3 local installers with whom I'm familiar say to throw a little yeast in the first tank to start with; either dry yeast or crumbled cakes of yeast (they say it makes no difference which one you use) and you can just flush it down the toilet. I made sure the first tank was easily accessible with the intention of having it pumped out every couple of years just to keep everything clean, but my service man says I can waste my money if I want to, but there's no need and that he'll tell me if it ever needs pumping, so it's been 4 years and hasn't been pumped yet.

Bird

 

[jinman]

Well Alan, you answered most of my questions about your aerobic system. It sounds like you may have found the source of your odor too. I am a little surprised about your lack of chlorination. You are surely NOT dumping raw sewage on the ground. Although I thought it was required by the state, I think it is like wearing both a belt and suspenders. It is a treatment for what might escape in a surge or if your aerator is not operating effeciently enough. Just to be on the safe side, you might check with the county on the requirement for chlorine. You surely don't want to be shut down by an "over-zealous" inspector. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Now about that "monster" water system...
I wonder if anyone else has heard of such a system? Alan, I think your pump might be sucking water so fast it is stirring up mud off the bottom (kinda a whirlpool effect at the suction intake). I never heard that formula for the flow in gpm to tank size. Mind you, I'm not saying it is bogus. I'm just pleading ignorance. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Also, my pipe going down the hole is schedule 80 plastic pipe just for wells (I think it's 1" dia.). Even the joints are not galvanized. Rust is not an issue. There is a air valve (like in a tire) which opens when the pump shuts off to allow air into the line. As you say, some water leaks back down to a hole about 20' down the well, and this drips back into the casing. However, since there is no metal, there is no danger of rust. Like you, my tank head pressure goes from 50 to 65 in a short time. I have had four sprinklers going in the yard and the pump still cycles. (honestly, I'm not sure of my horsepower). Maybe your cloudy water will eventually clear up./w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

Your electric bill is quite good (Electric Coop?). Mine is about $75 to $80, but I don't have my house done.

JimI

 

[Bird]

You guys sure make me envy those electric bills. Mine is averaging over $200 a month (Navarro County Electric Co-op). Of course, the house is total electric and I have a second meter for the shop./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

 

[Alan L.]

That $139 electric bill was for just 890 square feet, but we keep it very cool. I usually set the thermostat on 60 at night, turn on the ceiling fan, the box fan for noise, and then get under several layers of cover.

I suspect that the 5HP pump might be stirring up the well, but if you figure the pressure I need and the 400 feet it has to pump the water the "head" calls that big a pump. I supposed I could get by with lower capacity pump, but my driller convinced me that if your well produces 35 or 40 gpm then you should put at least a 25 gpm pump on it to utilize it. If the water does not clear up going to a smaller pump might be the next step. For about a month now its mostly been clear, so were hoping it will clear up permanently.

My water comes up the hole from the pump in an inch and a half galvanized pipe. I don't buy what the driller says because EVERYBODY that is not using a bladder tank seems to have the snifter valve and the release valve system. Its no big deal airing my tank up, but why did this guy have to be different?

My bride just told me that she did not detect any odors today, and I didn't tonight either. Maybe the problem is solved.

My septic seems to have one tank burried with no cover to the outside, then about a 6" PVC pipe stickup just above ground level with a cap on it. Then there is the tank that should contain "good" water and it has a concrete lid. I wasn't home the day they installed it so I'm not sure whats under there, but I do have an owners manual.

My B-I-L installs Hydro-action systems. He showed me one that he was fixing to install setting on top of the ground. It comes with all the tanks strapped together where he can just lower the whole shabang down into the hole at once.

Alan L., TX

 

[Bird]

<font color=blue>My septic seems to have one tank burried with no cover to the outside</font color=blue>

Alan, apparently that was the standard way to install them and that's the way my brother's is (supposed to be a minimum of 6" of dirt on it). However, I told the installer that wouldn't do for me. If, or when, you ever want it pumped out, it's a pain to have to dig up the yard and find the access cover, so I had them put a 6" concrete collar over the access cover, then another cover on that. All I have to do is pull the two lids if I want to get into it.

<font color=blue>all the tanks strapped together where he can just lower the whole shabang down into the hole at once.</font color=blue>

I haven't seen one of those yet, but the last time I saw my service man, he told me about that new design; said it really cuts down on installation time.

Bird

 

[MarkV]

Alan,

We have seen the same situation with the one way vent caps here in N Georgia. They are often called cheater vents here. What I always found funny is that they do not meet our plumbing codes, but you can buy one at any hardware store. I'll bet your odor problem is over now that you have an outside vent.

MarkV

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

JimI

Thanks for the pics. The website makes it look like this might be three separate holes with tanks set. Your system looks like one long tank. The prices you guys are quoting are scaring the heck outta me though. The new system I had installed last year had a 1000 gallon tank with 480 square feet of inflitrator laid in 1 long run of about 90 feet or so. Sure looks funny to have the inspection riser so far out in the back yard. Total cost with permits was about $2,000.00. ($150 permit fee including core samples). /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I'm also glad to hear you guys talking about sediment in new wells. I've dealt with hundreds of new houses all with new wells and nobody EVER talked about funny colored water. My new well (126ft with 67 feet of standing water and 10 gpm submerged pump), was connected last month. /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif I almost freaked when I flushed the toilet and it filled with red water. The I read the drillers log (Michigan requires I get a copy of it) and realized that it had to be something like sediment because they had gone through a layer of grey clay and a couple layers of red clay. It has cleared up quite a bit, but there's still a little sediment in the toilet every now and then. I expect when I run the water long enough I'll get rid of it. And the chlorine. The guys are required to dump a gallon or so of chlorine down the well when they hook it up.

Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Chillimau]

Anybody have any experience with a lagoon? I like the benefits of the aerobic system, water for grass etc, but the cost is more than twice that of a lagoon plus the yearly maintenence and repairs. Lagoon is considered to have a fifty year life span, what about the aerobic system? Most everybody around me has a lagoon and is considered the norm. From what the neighbors say it will smell ocassionally but not often.

 

[Alan L.]

According to my log, the driller screened in some shale between two sands and that might be where my cloudiness is coming from. I just hope it clears up for good. If you dropped maybe 4 drops of milk into a glass of water and stirred it up, thats what it looks like sometimes.

Alan L., TX

 

[Bird]

Alan, I'm a little curious about the cloudy, or milky, water. Do you know what's causing it. If you draw up a glass of it and let it sit for awhile, does it clear up, and if so, is there any sediment in it. We're on a community water system instead of a well, and our water quite frequently will look milky for a couple of days (every time they fix a leak or have a little problem with a pump station). My wife really doesn't like that milky look, but it's just air in the lines; let it sit for a few minutes and it clears up.

Bird

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Can't say for sure. Mine was red like rust. At first I thought it was the chlorine causing rusting in the few inches of galvanized pipe. (The rest of it appears to be some kind of high pressure rubber hose). The problem with that theory is that it settles into kind of a mud in the bottom of the toilet. (That's all we have hooked up so far). It HAS cleared considerably in the past couple of weeks /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif and now appears to be just an occasional situation. I think THAT has to do with watering the new trees and leaving the hose run for about an hour.

My log says the driller pumped the well at 40 gpm for 1 hour. THAT may have sucked up some mud.

SHF

 

[jinman]

Bird, you'd complain if someone shot you with a new pistol! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif ...so would I, come to think of it. But, I don't think $200 for a house and shop electric bill will find you too much sympathy. Sure, my house in town has natural gas heat and hot water, so my winter bill is cheaper there than in my cabin where everthing is electric. I think you are doing pretty good, but I guess we always want to save a few bucks for more tractor toys./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

JimI

 

[jinman]

SHF - My system has three tanks in one large concrete container, with each being sealed from the other except for the designed flow piping. The final tank (with the black riser)is on the clear water collection tank (500 gallons). It has a submersible pump and a float valve that turns on the sprinklers between the 250 and 300 gallon level. I you go to http://www.norweco.com you can check out more detail on the Singulair system which mine is. In their brochure, they do not show the clear water collection tank.

I think the shallow wells take longer to clear up and are likely to have periodic clouding. I had a well near Norfolk, Va which was very shallow (less than 50') and it was terrible. It was very hard and so much iron that it was a constant hassle keeping our white fixtures from turning red./w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif
I hope you have good luck with your well. If that is the standard depth for your neighbors in your area, I wouldn't worry about it.



JimI

 

[jinman]

Gary, can you describe that "lagoon" system for us? If it's what it sounds like... maybe I won't go there. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I have a cousin in Pauls Valley (Paoli actually) and I will ask her what kind of system she has.
BTW - Wasn't Moore the place hit by the tornado a couple of years back?


JimI

 

[Bird]

Gary, you're in the area in which I grew up (but moved to Texas in '56). I don't recall ever seeing anyone using a lagoon; just regular old septic systems with lateral lines and leach fields.

Bird

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

JimI

Actually, at 126', my well is about mid range on depth. I've heard of some going down 300', but that's usually only on hill tops or if the higher aquifers are polluted. The shallowest I've run across was 16'. Usually, at that depth the water smells like fish. The State won't pass wells less than 60' anymore. Which is good because the stuff less than 30' tends to dry up after a few dry summers. I expect my well will work out okay. The driller is my new next door neighbor. (It works out, or I'm the neighbor from heck).

I do have one more question about these fancy septic systems though. "Is there an isolation distance between well and septic?" Here, the County requires at least 50'. I know FHA is specifying (in the absence of a County Health Code) 100'. Does this isolation requirement apply to these basically sealed systems?

SHF

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Bird,

How many kilowatts and how much per kilowatt? I don't want to rub it in, but I'm crying when my bill hits $45.00. That's only because my brother in law has been averaging $16.00, electric water heater, washer, dryer and all. (I have GOTTA figure out how he's doing that!) /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif