water in fuel problem, need educating

[dontKnowMuch]

Bought a used JD 4310 last summer. Now that its getting cold ive run into a problem. First time it stopped running i eventually realized it had water in the diesel. This happened after i left it out in the rain and the drain was clogged, so i think water got through the cap into the tank as it was under water for days apparently. I drained SOME diesel out, but not the full tank (mistake?), and i changed the fuel filter. Got it running and added some diesel dry to the tank. Also kept the tractor out of the rain . A month later and i am surprised to have the tractor stalling again, and it looks like more water in the fuel as the fuel separator is indicating.

Im a newb so forgive my stupidity. Now i realize that condensation can form and its more likely to form when its getting warm//cold by the tank. Im guessing the best way to guard against that is to keep the tank full, as well as my diesel fuel container full too is that correct?

Is it odd that it had water in it again so soon after my first "cure" or did i do something wrong? im assuming just changing the fuel and the fuel filter should be the cure, but am open to learning. Looking on tips to help me take better care of this baby as ive already fallen in love with her, i just dont know how to take care of her properly yet

 

[LouNY]

Does your fuel filter housing have a drain on it?
If so drain it off frequently.
Some fuel tanks will also have a drain, the water will separate from fuel if undisturbed and will settle in the lowest point waiting to be drained.

 

[Wagtail]

G'day Mate and welcome to TBN from Downunder.

My advice, which I hope you will follow, is to completely drain all of the diesel from your tank. Then, using a long 'grabber', attach CHUX (J-Cloth) to the end and wipe as much residue from the tank as you can. I'd also change fuel filters again. Put every thing back together and fill the tank with fresh diesel and add in a dose of diesel biocide as an insurance policy.

Does the fuel bowl (the 'clear' bowl with the red float and the water-drain cock) have a green-ish tinge to it?

Yes, keep the tank full to guard against condensation... you don't say where in the world you live so I can only guess at the amount of humidity or temperature fluctuation you have to deal with.

Enjoy the site.

 

[Looking4new]

Wagtail makes a lot of sense and it was what I was gonna say. You can save the wasted fuel for starting your burn pile, if the law allows it.

 

[oosik]

You know - over the years I've been on TBN - I'm beginning to believe that there is a WIDE variation in the quality of diesel fuel available to the customer across this country. Some folks, in certain areas, have NEVER ENDING problems with water and biological growth in their fuel. I would wager that a lot of this comes to them in the fresh fuel they just got today at their local service station. There is also the matter of storage & handling after initial purchase. Keeping your stored fuel clean, dry and growth free - - same with what is in your tractor.

I'm just the type that can be a real pain in the a*s to local service stations. Twice a year - fall & spring - when I normally go in to my local Chevron station to fill my Jerry cans - I will take along a big 'ol clear one gallon jug. I will fill two of my five gallon Jerry cans and then pump a gallon into the glass jug. Let it sit while I fill the remaining two or three Jerry cans. This all takes place on the tailgate of my pickup - in plain view of the station operator.

When all the Jerry cans are filled and my hands wiped clean - I lift up the gallon jug and see what is there to see. I have NEVER seen any crud, corrosion or tiny water droplets. I better NEVER see any of that either. The station operator is well aware of what I'm doing and is quite proud of my semi-annual results. My diesel fuel has ALWAYS been as dry as a popcorn fart in the middle of the Atacama Desert. I also use Power Service, white jug, in all my diesel fuel.

And further - this summer, after nine years, I changed the fuel filter on my 2009 M6040. It was as clean as the brand new one I put back on. There was absolutely no crud or dirt in the gasoline I washed the old one out in. I simply could not believe that there was NOTHING in the old filter - so I washed it in gas and got nothing. I wasted $19 changing out that fuel filter.

 

[ruffdog]

"so i think water got through the cap into the tank as it was under water for days"

As the outside temperature changes, the tank will either expel air or want to suck it in. If water pools around the cap that allows air leakage, then the water gets sucked in. Think of it...the tank is warm, then it rains that will then cool the tank, the cooling tank then sucks the water in that is around the fill cap.

 

[jbrumberg]

I agree with the previous posts/posters.

I buy my diesel fuel from high volume stations. If heavy equipment operators and school buses are purchasing fuel the odds are good that the station is providing decent quality fuel.

There are also products available that can remove existing water in your fuel; Howes and PowerService are two popular brands whose additive products can increase cetane, remove water, remove crud/algae, etc. In addition there are fuel/water separating funnels that effectively remove existing water from the jerry can's diesel fuel. I have a "Mr. Funnel" and use it with every fuel up; it works as advertised.

 

[ruffdog]

"remove water, remove crud/algae, etc"

Additives don't "remove" those items. Additives may break those items down or attach themselves to the items so the engine can burn it.

 

[jbrumberg]

ruffdog- thank you for the clarification. The Howes and PowerService websites are quite informative as to how their products work and how to use their products.

 

[ruffdog]

ruffdog- thank you for the clarification. The Howes and PowerService websites are quite informative as to how their products work and how to use their products.

If fuel is severely contaminated, it might be a better option for users to dispose of the fuel instead of running it through the engine.:2cents:

 

[jbrumberg]

"..... You can save the wasted fuel for starting your burn pile, if the law allows it."- L4N

 

[jaxs]

"remove water, remove crud/algae, etc"

Additives don't "remove" those items. Additives may break those items down or attach themselves to the items so the engine can burn it.

That's true but damage can still occur so keeping water out of fuel or capturing it before it reaches pump are better.

 

[jbrumberg]

That's true but damage can still occur so keeping water out of fuel or capturing it before it reaches pump are better.

I agree. Mr. Funnel works as advertised. My only fuel problems to date have been to ancient fuel in the tank and/or when I did not use my fuel/water separating funnel.

 

[dontKnowMuch]

Thank you Wagtail (and the other posters).

I will give it a try. My fuel bowl is not greenish.

as far as draining the tank, i do have a little red knob looking thing that if i turn it, diesel comes out. need to find a hose that i can attach to that because now it spills onto the machine and i dont like that. Im assuming thats how i would drain the fuel from the tank before i try to clean the bottom of the tank out. but i will pick up a grabber and some J cloth and give this my best attempt.

once i get it cleaned, and filled back up, im assuming to help get it started, fill the fuel filter bowl up with fresh diesel and my new fuel filter before cranking it over. I learned that the last time, but Im also wondering if there are any other tips on how to start it after all that as the other time this happened i used a little starter fluid, but i know thats frowned upon and could lead to engine trouble. Used it sparingly though.

 

[Wagtail]

No worries Mate. If your fuel bowl was slightly green-ish, that would be an indication that you've got a biological growth in your fuel tank. It's only an indication, mind you... when you go to town for the 'grabber', definitely pick up a dose of diesel biocide additive and add it to the fresh diesel. It won't harm your system but it's an insurance policy against anything that got in there during your initial troubles.

If your 4310 is like my 4105, all you have to do to drain the tank is to detach the fuel line from the tank at where it connects to the fuel bowl = instant hose.

Fill the new fuel filter up with fresh diesel before you screw it on. Once you've reconnected everything on the system you can fill the tank with fresh diesel... gravity should fill the fuel bowl. You shouldn't need to do more except to crank the tractor over as the injectors should be self priming; if not, there's a procedure in your Owner Manual to purge them individually. (Note: best done with two people, one on the injector and one to crank the engine)

Once you've got the tractor running, do not be surprised if, from time to time, a puff of white smoke comes out of your exhaust + a momentary loss of engine power. It's just any residual water in the fuel lines and may only happen once or twice.

As long as you've got a healthy, charged, battery, you shouldn't need to use any starter fluid.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Bought a used JD 4310 last summer. Now that its getting cold ive run into a problem. First time it stopped running i eventually realized it had water in the diesel. This happened after i left it out in the rain and the drain was clogged, so i think water got through the cap into the tank as it was under water for days apparently. I drained SOME diesel out, but not the full tank (mistake?), and i changed the fuel filter. Got it running and added some diesel dry to the tank. Also kept the tractor out of the rain . A month later and i am surprised to have the tractor stalling again, and it looks like more water in the fuel as the fuel separator is indicating.

Im a newb so forgive my stupidity. Now i realize that condensation can form and its more likely to form when its getting warm//cold by the tank. Im guessing the best way to guard against that is to keep the tank full, as well as my diesel fuel container full too is that correct?

Is it odd that it had water in it again so soon after my first "cure" or did i do something wrong? im assuming just changing the fuel and the fuel filter should be the cure, but am open to learning. Looking on tips to help me take better care of this baby as ive already fallen in love with her, i just dont know how to take care of her properly yet

"Now i realize that condensation can form and its more likely to form when its getting warm//cold by the tank. I'm guessing the best way to guard against that is to keep the tank full, as well as my diesel fuel container full too is that correct?"

That's a great start. Condensation is a real problem in humid climates and the only way to minimize it (You can't eliminate it.) is to keep your tank as full as possible. You can treat the fuel to help it accrete on the filter and then it drains down into the filter sump and manually drain it regularly. If you have bacterial scum in the tank (erroneously called "algae") you can use diesel fuel additives that contain biocide or a strait biocide to prevent that. You'll have to drain the tank first and refill with either filtered drain fuel or fresh fuel.

 

[oldtimer 66]

This happened to me. Had the locking fuel cap on my tractor for years. Guess what. The water leaked thru the key slot all those years. I no longer use a locking fuel cap. Later.

 

[DieselBound]

I went through a near-**** experience with a water problem in my Kioti. From new I had water in fuel problems. I'd recently started using a bulk fuel tank, but equipped it with a water filter. After several instances of getting the water-in-fuel light coming on, and then draining out a fair amount of water, I decided to scrutinize EVERYTHING. I drained off my fuel tank. NOTHING. I looked (again) at the clear bowl on my B7800- NOTHING. I drained the filter on my Polaris (diesel)- NOTHING. Drained out the fuel in my generator's filter- NOTHING: and this thing had been sitting with the same fuel for a LONG time- outside, 12 gallon plastic tank exposed to the elements (well, slightly covered by plastic tarp).

I was corresponding with my dealer about something else and tossed this one at him. I was kind of tired of the cheesy locking fuel cap; I suggested that perhaps this was the source of my water. He sent me a new, obviously revised cap. Since that time I have had almost no water coming out from the filter (drain), NO water-in-fuel light.

It's possible that the tractor came with water in it, as very early on I had this problem. Perhaps this in conjunction with the cap. I really think that there might be something in the theory of locking fuel caps being a contributor: one day I'll try and test this out on my old cap.

I did a LOT of on-line research into the condensation issue. Here's a link to an interesting article on this subject (from a Marine surveyor). Based on my findings I'd have to agree: 150 gallon steel fuel tank sitting outside (now it's under cover), to a 12 gallon one, to the ones on the tractors and the Polaris; ONLY water in the Kioti's tank? (only one with a locking fuel cap) (and I've got three diesel cars [momentarily four] and have a diesel truck- none have had water-in-fuel issues, though these are filled from on-road stations)

 

[Jerry/MT]

I went through a near-**** experience with a water problem in my Kioti. From new I had water in fuel problems. I'd recently started using a bulk fuel tank, but equipped it with a water filter. After several instances of getting the water-in-fuel light coming on, and then draining out a fair amount of water, I decided to scrutinize EVERYTHING. I drained off my fuel tank. NOTHING. I looked (again) at the clear bowl on my B7800- NOTHING. I drained the filter on my Polaris (diesel)- NOTHING. Drained out the fuel in my generator's filter- NOTHING: and this thing had been sitting with the same fuel for a LONG time- outside, 12 gallon plastic tank exposed to the elements (well, slightly covered by plastic tarp).

I was corresponding with my dealer about something else and tossed this one at him. I was kind of tired of the cheesy locking fuel cap; I suggested that perhaps this was the source of my water. He sent me a new, obviously revised cap. Since that time I have had almost no water coming out from the filter (drain), NO water-in-fuel light.

It's possible that the tractor came with water in it, as very early on I had this problem. Perhaps this in conjunction with the cap. I really think that there might be something in the theory of locking fuel caps being a contributor: one day I'll try and test this out on my old cap.

I did a LOT of on-line research into the condensation issue. Here's a link to an interesting article on this subject (from a Marine surveyor). Based on my findings I'd have to agree: 150 gallon steel fuel tank sitting outside (now it's under cover), to a 12 gallon one, to the ones on the tractors and the Polaris; ONLY water in the Kioti's tank? (only one with a locking fuel cap) (and I've got three diesel cars [momentarily four] and have a diesel truck- none have had water-in-fuel issues, though these are filled from on-road stations)

I don't agree with the author of this paper.
"In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air. The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? "
He asks how the tank can get colder than the air. The issues is that warm moist air enters the partially filled tank. The ambient temperature drops so the air and the tank eventually cools down and water condenses. It maybe only a few drops at a time but the greater the air volume the more the condensation and the greater the ambient temperature changes the more the condensation.

 

[DieselBound]

I don't agree with the author of this paper.
"In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air. The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? "
He asks how the tank can get colder than the air. The issues is that warm moist air enters the partially filled tank. The ambient temperature drops so the air and the tank eventually cools down and water condenses. It maybe only a few drops at a time but the greater the air volume the more the condensation and the greater the ambient temperature changes the more the condensation.

Not sure if the author was asking a question that he subsequently answered (I haven't read this article in a long while), but the facts are that he was never able to find condensation to have been the reason for water accumulation.

It has to do with the difference in MASS. The liquid is more temperature stable than the air and the containment vessel. I would state that it's more about the existing air in the containment vessel changing temperatures than it is about warmer air entering the containment vessel: air will enter when fuel is puled out, I'll give that, but the rate of change is pretty insignificant. The fuel will tend to be warmer and the air will, through conduction, be cooled down, with the coldest points being along the containment vessel (it's at this juncture that condensation forms).

The author gives numbers on how much moisture that the air can contain and shows how insignificant. But, yes, over a long period of time there can be a meaningful amount of water accumulation: and that amount of time seems to be a lot longer than most would figure.

I picked up an old diesel generator that had perhaps 1/2 tank of fuel (6 gallons; tank size 12 gallons) that was something like 5 years old or such. Generator had been sitting for all that time. Again, NO water.