Used Value vs Age

[blehmann]

I read the first four pages of this thread and the last three pages. I don't come on here much, but does the train leave the track fairly often? It is actually quite entertaining. Who'd have thought that a thread about age vs value would morph into tires and global cooling. Excuse me while I go read the sixteen pages in between to see where the bump in the track is.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I know where this conversation will lead so I will be the one to go down the rabbit hole.

Some government regulations are a necessary evel. That said, it always feels like they went too far when it effects usability of something YOU want. Sometimes technology will catch up to the requirements and you end up with a better machine because of it. Look at how reliable cars have become and how well they run compared to the early days of emission controls. Not sure if this will be the case for diesel emissions. Time will tell.

I am about to buy a good used washer and dryer. New washing machines were regulated to a max of 26 gallons of water and it doesn't cover the load. Reviews on new ones are all over the place but quite a few complain of clothes not getting clean. Complaints are such that Home Depot lists all new washers and dryers as NON-RETURNABLE. Apparently you can spring for a commercial unit that escapes the regulation at near double the price of a consumer model. BUT they don't sell them in any of the normal consumer stores.

I want a mid size cab tractor one of these days. I will probably have to pay near new price to get a pre emission model or suck it up and buy a new one with lots of electronics and pauses in use while it regenerates. Not in my budget either way right now so I will cross that road when I get to it. Finding a good pre emission model is becoming more and more impossible. People are not selling them and if they do they fetch a premium price.

It reminds me of guitars. It's like the pre emissions tractors have become highly sought after collectables. Who would have thought?

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Not only do they reduce efficiency, but they also create more heat.
Anyone who makes a living around machinery or vehicles knows those hot DPFs, Catalytic Converters, etc create equipment life-shortening heat which creates all kinds of issues, from the possibility of wild fires, to discomfort of operation, requiring more air conditioning in cabs to shortening of component life, requiring more parts and services, which means more parts to be made in factories, which means increased pollution. More service truck trips from the dealer to the farm, mine, etc means more air pollution from service truck exhausts. Also there’s a human component. More service truck trips means more possibilities of death or injury in vehicular accidents or service persons injured servicing pollution equipment.
People in colleges just don’t understand the impact of all this pollution stuff they force on us. It’s not thought through completely.

"People in colleges just don’t understand the impact of all this pollution stuff they force on us. It’s not thought through completely."

They don't care, it's not their money. Most of those people are on the public dole and it's other peoples money that is funding their ideas not their own. The worst thing about it is none of this is about the environment at all, it's just a scam to raise taxes and increase government control and power.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

If the reliability of all the environmental crap was so good, there would be no need to exempt the US military from having to comply. But, since it would be bad press for the politicians to have to admit that your son died because when his tank went into limp mode due to (a. a failed exhaust injector in the DPF system, b. bad NOX sensor, c. bad calibration of MAF sensor indicated EGR malfunction, etc. -- Take your pick) it made it easy for an enemy insurgent to climb on the vehicle and burn him out with a quart of gasoline. The fact that the same issues cost you your ability to make a living is pooh poohed as a minor inconvenience for the greater good, despite the fact that your taxes aren't reduced as compensation for being a beta tester of their poorly thought out regulations, nor does the government compensate you for the lost time due to parts unavailability and no ability to bypass the the systems -- even in an emergency. Sorry keep your kool-aid. I guess the heat during the jurassic & cretaceous periods were due to excess dinosaur farts that weren't fixed by catalytic converters & exhaust restrictors in their asses. We may or may not be getting global warming. If we are, MAN has nothing to do with it, we are simply returning to a more normal temperature (from a geologic perspective). Say good bye to the Tail end of the ice age and welcome the new era. Alternatively ... if you lean that way, welcome the terraforming event that is being perpetrated on this planet by the aliens in Antarctica (where all the ozone depletion started) & get ready for the herd culling that they are about to start. I have no problem with clean water & clean air, but for the short time that humans have been the dominant species on land, we are still insignificant actors in the grand scheme, and I refuse to buy into the popular propaganda that we alone are responsible & that our actions will somehow stop the inevitable. Neanderthals & Cro-magnons were probably having this same argument when they noticed the temps dropping & winters lasting longer

"If the reliability of all the environmental crap was so good, there would be no need to exempt the US military from having to comply."

That right there is the argument of arguments that destroys everything the EPA and the government is saying. My hats off to you for pointing this out as I have never heard it said until now.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I’ve seen more problems out of new stuff than used stuff. It seems that just about everything new has bugs to work out where used stuff is proven reliable.

That's often the case with anything in the beginning of it's product life cycle.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I don't think that anyone is arguing the fact that vehicles (cars, tractors, motorcycles, even bicycles) have improved tremendously because of technology. Technology can not only be good. It can be wonderful. However that doesn't mean that all technology is good. It can be overdone, and doesn't always provide a good tradeoff in terms of cost and/or problems versus improved performance.

Take DPF's on diesel tractors for instance. DPF's catch heavy particulates. In downtown LA heavy particulates are a big problem. They should be caught and not put into the atmosphere, particularly in downtown LA. But these heavy particulates don't travel far. In the rural areas that have few vehicles and lots of land (and air) these particulates are not that much of a pollution problem. I have no problem with getting rid of particulates, even in the rural setting. But getting rid of them with today's technology means increased fuel consumption and increased co2 emissions, along with repeated reliability issues. Is a DPF a good trade-off and wise environmental decision? Not in my book.

The lets look at computers on compact tractors. I recently looked at a new 55 hp Yanmar. Virtually everything on it is computer controlled. Does it really do provide far reaching advantages that the average person who buys that tractor needs or will even use? Not really. My neighbor recently sold his relatively new TYM tractor because of repeated "computer problems" that the dealer had a hard time diagnosing and fixing. Are computers a big benefit in compact tractors? Might be someday, but not today in my book.

"My neighbor recently sold his relatively new TYM tractor because of repeated "computer problems" that the dealer had a hard time diagnosing and fixing."

Can you share more information about this? What year and model TYM tractor did he have?

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Agree. That is pretty bad. I think some people guzzle the end of the world kool aid. It’s like they want the world disasters.
However, I know it’s all about 2 things, money and power.
And unless there’s a new and radical change from what is going on with the environment now, nobody will ever change my mind.

At the rate they're going with this foolish and wasteful spending the end of the world for us Americans is going to be bankruptcy not the environment.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Most driven tractor tires are directional as well, so I wouldn't be surprised somebody here saw your hot rod's tires and thought they looked a little "off."

Really??

 

[Torvy]

Wow, so it took awhile, but I got through the whole thread thus far. A couple of things...there is a huge false equivalency between improved fuel efficiency in autos and emissions on farm tractors...the shear number of cars compared to tractors is one thing, add in the relatively low usage of the Average tractor versus the average car and then the fact that most tractors hours are logged a fair distance from other tractors...then you have the diesel particulates versus fuel usage, someone up thread explained it well: particulates are heavier than air and do not travel far, they also are much more diffused than a diesel bus in a city, for example.

I am not a smart guy, but I know when I don't know. For me, personally, there is little difference in maintaining new versus old as my skill set in mechanics is highly lacking. But I do know that most who farm for a living, have considerably more of those skills and when dealing with tiny margins can be overwhelmed by the cost of repairs that heretofore were able to be done at home.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

lol! I remember that crap too! One of our hero’s of the time , Spock (Nemoy) narrating a serious documentary explaining global freezing. “Live long and prosper”.

So I watched the video and did some research of my own and it turns out this Dr. Gifford Miller who was crying an ice age was coming is now saying the total opposite. You can watch the video here:

 

[OzarkChris]

Monarch Tractor Announces World's Only Fully Electric Smart Tractor

The all-electric Monarch tractor can provide 40 horsepower (30 kilowatts) of continuous power and short-duration peak power up to 70 horsepower (55 kilowatts). Hydraulics can be controlled from the cloud. It is the only tractor in the world controlled by wire.

www.dtnpf.com

Wow! I never thought of that one: Deere’s new electric tractor tosses the battery | The Western Producer

You actually don't need a tractor.... you need a field robot: Electric tractors, agribots and regenerative agriculture | Greenbiz:

You actually don't need a tractor.... you need a field robot​

So I have a few questions about this whole concept. The prototype (I'm guessing) that is shown is pruning what, 1 limb/minute/30 seconds. Sounds like it might work really well on one of them "Zen Gardens" so it might be done at the end of each day. I'm pretty sure you could duct tape a "Zen Rake" to the back of the unit it could probably pull though. Assuming (and we know how that works out), they can make a unit 10-100 times the size (that can still fit between rows), so it can pull plows, seeders, sprayers, etc, etc. Where is the cost benefit for something that in the end costs 10-15 times more that the current technology? With 2 hired hands you can do all this at 1/10 the cost.

Y'all constantly preach about the environment and how fossil fuels are destroying the earth. I'm curious why you don't look at the garbage/carbon emissions/ pollution that is created by making solar cells! The tree huggers (which most are also on the alternative energy band wagon) will bankrupt entire towns/counties, etc because a spotted white owl is in a forest (doing better in select cut forests than old growth ones), but don't raise a finger or say a damn thing about all of the bald eagles and other wildlife that are killed every year by the wind powered generators. When folks ask why the wind farms get a pass on putting protection devices around the propellers its usually the same old dribble. "If we do that, your electricity would cost 10 times more", "it wouldn't be cost effective for us to have to do this" or my favorite "but this is green energy, we always think of the environment first!".

So in this last scenario, it's okay to kill our national bird (the one that if I mistakenly killed with my tractor, would have a massive fine, jail time etc imposed on me), but only if it is "for the better cause" (Who's better cause? And how do you define it?). It's okay to say it costs 10 times more and be exempted from regulatory crap, but only if it is for the "better cause" (ditto). Why It's okay to put crap in the landfill that I wouldn't be able to throw away if it is from manufacturing solar cells - "for the better cause" (ditto).

I could go on and on with the hypocrisy that these groups "justify" (in their minds), but for me, I'll just stay out here in God's country and hope y'all just keep that crap to yourself. Nice pipe dream for sure, but at least I can be hopeful.

 

[Cougsfan]

You actually don't need a tractor.... you need a field robot​

So I have a few questions about this whole concept. The prototype (I'm guessing) that is shown is pruning what, 1 limb/minute/30 seconds. Sounds like it might work really well on one of them "Zen Gardens" so it might be done at the end of each day. I'm pretty sure you could duct tape a "Zen Rake" to the back of the unit it could probably pull though. Assuming (and we know how that works out), they can make a unit 10-100 times the size (that can still fit between rows), so it can pull plows, seeders, sprayers, etc, etc. Where is the cost benefit for something that in the end costs 10-15 times more that the current technology? With 2 hired hands you can do all this at 1/10 the cost.

Y'all constantly preach about the environment and how fossil fuels are destroying the earth. I'm curious why you don't look at the garbage/carbon emissions/ pollution that is created by making solar cells! The tree huggers (which most are also on the alternative energy band wagon) will bankrupt entire towns/counties, etc because a spotted white owl is in a forest (doing better in select cut forests than old growth ones), but don't raise a finger or say a damn thing about all of the bald eagles and other wildlife that are killed every year by the wind powered generators. When folks ask why the wind farms get a pass on putting protection devices around the propellers its usually the same old dribble. "If we do that, your electricity would cost 10 times more", "it wouldn't be cost effective for us to have to do this" or my favorite "but this is green energy, we always think of the environment first!".

So in this last scenario, it's okay to kill our national bird (the one that if I mistakenly killed with my tractor, would have a massive fine, jail time etc imposed on me), but only if it is "for the better cause" (Who's better cause? And how do you define it?). It's okay to say it costs 10 times more and be exempted from regulatory crap, but only if it is for the "better cause" (ditto). Why It's okay to put crap in the landfill that I wouldn't be able to throw away if it is from manufacturing solar cells - "for the better cause" (ditto).

I could go on and on with the hypocrisy that these groups "justify" (in their minds), but for me, I'll just stay out here in God's country and hope y'all just keep that crap to yourself. Nice pipe dream for sure, but at least I can be hopeful.

I think we have to keep all this in perspective. You are right, there is no way robotic tractor is close to being ready for prime time. But so were fossil fuel tractors 110 years ago. The argument you made about 2 hired hands being cheaper is interesting because good luck on hiring 2 hired hands these days who are worth hiring.

And using the argument against the extreme environmentalist (which has some validity) to nullify the need for all environmental concerns also has its issues. The best answers are probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[OzarkChris]

I think we have to keep all this in perspective. You are right, there is no way robotic tractor is close to being ready for prime time. But so were fossil fuel tractors 110 years ago. The argument you made about 2 hired hands being cheaper is interesting because good luck on hiring 2 hired hands these days who are worth hiring.

And using the argument against the extreme environmentalist (which has some validity) to nullify the need for all environmental concerns also has its issues. The best answers are probably somewhere in the middle.

The argument you made about 2 hired hands being cheaper is interesting because good luck on hiring 2 hired hands these days who are worth hiring.

I don't live in the big city, so, at least out here, folks are raised to work hard and Not take handouts from the government unless it's absolutely necessary (and then it for the shortest time possible). Hired hands around here ARE available and well trained/taught from a young age how to work equipment - many folks round here actually have the hired hands living on their property as part of their wages.

And using the argument against the extreme environmentalist ...

I hadn't realized that solar panel manufacturers & wind powerplants were "extreme environmentalists". Do you have answers for those "for the better good" questions? Most of the "Alternative Energy" folks I've heard from hate Nuke energy too! Pretty clean energy compared to Solar manufacturering - Or don't we worry about the manufacturering processes "for the better good"?

The best answers are probably somewhere in the middle.

I at least somewhat agree. But believe it's probably more like 75% my side. The environmentalist side has way too much voice because they (try to) make everything personal and have the university lounge lizards on their side - which is then (tried to be) brainwashed into our children so they can't have an opinion (or risk being canceled or worse flunked out). Again, I don't believe these are extremists, but almost the "Norm" of the vocal minority!

 

[Hay Dude]

The argument you made about 2 hired hands being cheaper is interesting because good luck on hiring 2 hired hands these days who are worth hiring.

I don't live in the big city, so, at least out here, folks are raised to work hard and Not take handouts from the government unless it's absolutely necessary (and then it for the shortest time possible). Hired hands around here ARE available and well trained/taught from a young age how to work equipment - many folks round here actually have the hired hands living on their property as part of their wages.

And using the argument against the extreme environmentalist ...

I hadn't realized that solar panel manufacturers & wind powerplants were "extreme environmentalists". Do you have answers for those "for the better good" questions? Most of the "Alternative Energy" folks I've heard from hate Nuke energy too! Pretty clean energy compared to Solar manufacturering - Or don't we worry about the manufacturering processes "for the better good"?

The best answers are probably somewhere in the middle.

I at least somewhat agree. But believe it's probably more like 75% my side. The environmentalist side has way too much voice because they (try to) make everything personal and have the university lounge lizards on their side - which is then (tried to be) brainwashed into our children so they can't have an opinion (or risk being canceled or worse flunked out). Again, I don't believe these are extremists, but almost the "Norm" of the vocal minority!

Well said. I'm tired of hearing "Americans dont want to work hard anymore". Well, yeah there's more of them now than 50 years ago, but you can thank moral decay for that. But there's a lot of people in MY area who work their dang tails off everyday. I'm one of them. In fact, my whole family works hard.

 

[Torvy]

It is only 25% who don't work hard. 3 out of 4 of my kids work hard. I hope the other one grows up soon. (he's 20).

The farmers in my extended family all work hard, too. Hired hands usually live in a house on property owned by the ranch, but not at the main place. Some hands are better than others, but they don't have too much trouble finding good help.

Families still help each other out, too. In branding season, everyone helps everyone else to do a labor intensive task. Some great memories helping out. Never worked harder, nor felt better about my work.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

It is only 25% who don't work hard. 3 out of 4 of my kids work hard. I hope the other one grows up soon. (he's 20).

The farmers in my extended family all work hard, too. Hired hands usually live in a house on property owned by the ranch, but not at the main place. Some hands are better than others, but they don't have too much trouble finding good help.

Families still help each other out, too. In branding season, everyone helps everyone else to do a labor intensive task. Some great memories helping out. Never worked harder, nor felt better about my work.

Please send them to my state because nobody wants to work down here.

 

[Torvy]

Please send them to my state because nobody wants to work down here.

Sorry, the oldest almost went to 'Bama, but took the deal from OU instead. His gf just passed the Texas Bar, so I doubt they will want to move.

I wish I could send you the 20 yo as an old school apprentice.

 

[Tony H]

"If the reliability of all the environmental crap was so good, there would be no need to exempt the US military from having to comply."

That right there is the argument of arguments that destroys everything the EPA and the government is saying. My hats off to you for pointing this out as I have never heard it said until now.

I'm in the electronics business. It is funny how a few years back (10ish). RoHS complaints meant no more Lead solder. Had to use silver. Of course it was a nightmare. Footprint on circuitboards that work with soft leaf would not work with silver. SMT component were threatening, not to mention that the hard brittle silver would have components breaking off the board during vibration tests... Guess what, the govt that stuffed this down are throats for consumers exempted themselves from it for govt designs. America, land of artificial freedom

 

[MHarryE]

I guess I started this mess. A few observations:

Tier 4/Stage 5 tractors are so hated that lead times to get new tractors can now be over a year.

Sales in the 100 HP and lower are higher than they have ever been - industry numbers through August are the numbers at which I am looking.

A multi-year viewing of large farmers with YouTube channels found most making use of the electronics available in order to be productive. Trade off relatively new tractors in order to get one with newer software and it’s added capabilities.

Finding workers in rural areas is no new problem. My father-in-law had trouble finding farm labor in the 1970’s. He grew about 100 acres of vegetables in the Kansas City area. He ended up being dependent on itinerant farm workers but they dried up. Now my brother-in-law continues the operation, downsized to 5 acres of the highest value specialty crops supplemented by buying and selling from other farmers. Let’s face it - I’ve had my time in the trenches weekends when help was needed picking beans, tomatoes, sweet corn, 90 degree heat with 90% humidity. This northern guy can’t take it. My kids, too, severed their summers helping grandpa - ones now a veterinarian, the other a CFO. Get the same schooling as dad and get off the down and dirty farm work.

And after my retirement, I ended up doing custom farm work, but no old tractors. My body’s too old for that. My job was developing and validating the electronics and I’m using them. My tillage and planting are GPS guided. My main tractor cost 4 times my wife’s latest BMW, but it’s the only way I’m going to be out in the field. Yes, I do my own oil changes, filters, greasing, but not required every 100 hours (engine oil, filters) like my old school combine.

My tier 4 L6060 was such a big improvement over my L5740 that I hate to get rid of it, but the papers are signed for whenever my dealer can come up with a 50 hp larger tractor. I need reliability because my customers rely on me - who’d have thought of that when I retired and looked for some way to keep from getting bored. But over the last 2 decades I’d gone from mechanical injection 4 liter engines putting out 107 HP max to the same 4 liter size now cranking out 225 HP. Much more economical than the 6 liter it replaced at the top due to high pressure timed injection burning fuel more efficiently, and 2 liters less swept volume creating friction loss. Inefficient mechanical governor to electric monitoring that can give a 25 hp burst to get you through tough spots, then hold you back to not damage the power train. And like most large tractors, more power when using the PTO because that isn’t loading the transmission. Things like this are why the farmers staying in business make use of the latest and have backlogged the tractor supply chain.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I guess I started this mess. A few observations:

Tier 4/Stage 5 tractors are so hated that lead times to get new tractors can now be over a year.

Sales in the 100 HP and lower are higher than they have ever been - industry numbers through August are the numbers at which I am looking.

A multi-year viewing of large farmers with YouTube channels found most making use of the electronics available in order to be productive. Trade off relatively new tractors in order to get one with newer software and it’s added capabilities.

Finding workers in rural areas is no new problem. My father-in-law had trouble finding farm labor in the 1970’s. He grew about 100 acres of vegetables in the Kansas City area. He ended up being dependent on itinerant farm workers but they dried up. Now my brother-in-law continues the operation, downsized to 5 acres of the highest value specialty crops supplemented by buying and selling from other farmers. Let’s face it - I’ve had my time in the trenches weekends when help was needed picking beans, tomatoes, sweet corn, 90 degree heat with 90% humidity. This northern guy can’t take it. My kids, too, severed their summers helping grandpa - ones now a veterinarian, the other a CFO. Get the same schooling as dad and get off the down and dirty farm work.

And after my retirement, I ended up doing custom farm work, but no old tractors. My body’s too old for that. My job was developing and validating the electronics and I’m using them. My tillage and planting are GPS guided. My main tractor cost 4 times my wife’s latest BMW, but it’s the only way I’m going to be out in the field. Yes, I do my own oil changes, filters, greasing, but not required every 100 hours (engine oil, filters) like my old school combine.

My tier 4 L6060 was such a big improvement over my L5740 that I hate to get rid of it, but the papers are signed for whenever my dealer can come up with a 50 hp larger tractor. I need reliability because my customers rely on me - who’d have thought of that when I retired and looked for some way to keep from getting bored. But over the last 2 decades I’d gone from mechanical injection 4 liter engines putting out 107 HP max to the same 4 liter size now cranking out 225 HP. Much more economical than the 6 liter it replaced at the top due to high pressure timed injection burning fuel more efficiently, and 2 liters less swept volume creating friction loss. Inefficient mechanical governor to electric monitoring that can give a 25 hp burst to get you through tough spots, then hold you back to not damage the power train. And like most large tractors, more power when using the PTO because that isn’t loading the transmission. Things like this are why the farmers staying in business make use of the latest and have backlogged the tractor supply chain.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the electronics have advanced tractor efficiency and refinement a lot in the last several years due to the adoption of the technology that it has brought?