USDOT number - What it means?

   / USDOT number - What it means? #51  
RayH said:
Builder, good luck. Ive tried several times to convince people they dont need a CDL to pull a 10001 lbs trailer. Ive even quoted from their state manuals, and still they insist they need it (not everyone, but most). I'll say no more, I just want you to know you arent alone when they come out of the woodwork and tell you their uncles girlfriends dad got pulled over for towing a 12000 trailer.

Hey Ray this is in your neck of the woods...This is not an Urban Legend...you could call them locally, if you don't believe it...:D

Farmers question commercial vehicle laws

By Christian Giggenbach
THE REGISTER-HERALD (BECKLEY, W.V.)

MUDDY CREEK MOUNTAIN, W.Va. Greenbrier County farmers upset over a rash of tickets given out by state Department of Transportation officers questioned a Public Service Commission official Monday night over laws concerning vehicle weight, commercial driver's licenses and medical cards.

PSC officials said the majority of the federal regulations in question have been in effect since 1963, but could not explain why DOT officers have recently been issuing warning tickets for possible weight and certification infractions.

Gary Truex, a supervisor with the Greenbrier Valley Conservation District, said several farmers with one-ton trucks carrying hay and cattle had recently been pulled over by DOT officers, including himself, and given warning tickets for not having a CDL license and other permits.

Truex was driving a Ford F-450 flatbed with a gross vehicle weight of 15,000 pounds and a goose-neck trailer behind it. The officer cited him for not being medically certified, failure to display a DOT number, no fire extinguisher and not having emergency road triangles.

When I asked around about this we got some different answers, so I called Charleston to send an official here to speak about the regulations, Truex said.

Other farmers, some carrying cattle, have been pulled over for not having a CDL license while operating a one-ton truck with a trailer, which many believed to be legal, he said.

Reggie Bunner, a supervisor for the PSC motor carriers division since 1992, said, for example, that if the combination of a one-ton truck and a trailer exceeds 10,001 pounds, under certain circumstances, the driver will need to have a CDL and a medical card, be drug tested, and have federal DOT numbers on the side of the truck.

It depends if you are doing something for commerce, Truex said. If you're in a one-ton truck with a single rear wheel, you're OK, but if you hook up a little lawn mower trailer and then use it for commerce, then you are required by law to have a CDL.

One farmer didn't question the validity of the federal laws, but wanted to make sure he was in compliance.

If you're supposed to do it, then I understand, he said. I just want to be legal.

Bunner said any person who carries a CDL license must also be enrolled in a drug testing program.

That's the biggie, he said.

Bunner also explained regulations regarding out-of-state trucking, when a farm is required to have its name on the side of a truck, and other laws.

What what if your farm doesn't have a name? one farmer asked.

Bunner did not immediately respond to the farmer's question.

Bunner, who comes from a farming family, held up a thick federal regulation book and said it was only a fraction of the rules that had been passed by Congress.

Everyone has to comply with federal rules, and West Virginia cannot make a federal rule less stringent, he said.

Bunner said the majority of the regulations being asked about had been in effect since 1963. But when asked why many farmers are being pulled over today for laws that were passed over 40 years ago, Bunner had no reply.

I can't give you an answer to that; I really don't know why, he said.

Bunner at one point said he felt uncomfortable talking to the crowd as Reggie the farmer rather than Reggie the PSC official because of media presence at the meeting.

Clintonville farmer Pete Piercy questioned Bunner on why large recreation vehicle drivers were exempt from CDL licenses and other permits, when farmers driving much smaller trucks were not.

It's the federal government, Bunner said in frustration. There's no straight answer to it. We agree with you that they should be (properly licensed). You have to take it up with the federal government.



Christian Giggenbach writes for The Register-Herald in Beckley, W.Va.
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #52  
PaulChristenson said:
Hey Ray this is in your neck of the woods...This is not an Urban Legend...you could call them locally, if you don't believe it...:D

.

No need to call. I cant explain why they were getting warnings. It sounds like someone has a reading comprehension problem. If the people handing out warnings could understand what they read, they would know this.

"The Act (commercial motor vehicle act of 1986) established three separate classes of commercial driver's licenses. Every state issues licenses in these categories:

Class A: Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GWVR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class B: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.
Class C: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.
Many states make exceptions for farm vehicles, snow removal vehicles, fire and emergency vehicles, and some military vehicles"

Setting aside the fact that we are talking about farm use vehicles (I cant say for sure they qualified because the article didnt specify the distances they were traveling).
Read the requirements for class "A" and class "B" closely.
Its clear to me that the first requirement to be met is the 26001lbs. If you dont exceed 26001lbs, you dont need a CDL.
To say it simply, class A states, any combination of vehicles over 26000 towing a trailer over 10000. Class B states, any vehicle over 26000 towing a trailer under 10000.

Even simpler - straight out of the WV CDL manual
"Who does the CDL law effect
*A vehicle weighing 26001lbs or more (GVWR)
*A vehicle designed to carry 16 or more people
*A placarded vehicle carrying hazardous material

So you could drive a one ton pickup with a GVWR of 11000lbs, pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 12000lbs, (total 23000lbs) and not need a CDL. You may still need a DOT# (which would require a medical card, extinguisher, triangles, fuses), but not a CDL.

Its stories like this that propagate the myth. We read the story about someone getting a ticket or warning but we never find out that later, the charges were dropped.
 
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   / USDOT number - What it means?
  • Thread Starter
#53  
RayH said:
Builder, good luck. Ive tried several times to convince people they dont need a CDL to pull a 10001 lbs trailer. Ive even quoted from their state manuals, and still they insist they need it (not everyone, but most). I'll say no more, I just want you to know you arent alone when they come out of the woodwork and tell you their uncles girlfriends dad got pulled over for towing a 12000 trailer.


RayH,

Don't feel bad and please don't stop posting! I'm probably one of the ones that was wrong before. After reading many posts here (your's included) and other places, reading all I could online and visiting the DMV and State Troopers I have finally gotten the skinny on the situation in my state.

For farm use, I would need a DOT number if I didn't have farm tags, but wouldn't need a CDL as long as the total is under 26,001#. Intrastate only. With farm tags, no USDOT needed.

The article that Paul posted shows the confusion. They official was quoting interstate regs to a bunch of farmers that were intrastate only.

Then again, i got a lot of mis-information from official sources. (actually more mis-information from official WI sources than from here!). The DMV was telling me that I need USDOT and CDL to haul a 12k trailer. Max load 21,200#. They couldn't support the claim with any reg, statue, law or act. I have a copy of several in the truck now that specify farm stuff is exempt.

Specifically "2005 Wisonsin ACT 65".

The troopers were the most informative and helpfull of all the WI people I contacted. They initally didn't know the answers, but dug in to get to it. Good people.

jb
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #54  
RayH said:
No need to call. I cant explain why they were getting warnings. It sounds like someone has a reading comprehension problem. If the people handing out warnings could understand what they read, they would know this.

"The Act (commercial motor vehicle act of 1986) established three separate classes of commercial driver's licenses. Every state issues licenses in these categories:

Class A: Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GWVR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class B: Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.
Class C: Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.
Many states make exceptions for farm vehicles, snow removal vehicles, fire and emergency vehicles, and some military vehicles"

Setting aside the fact that we are talking about farm use vehicles (I cant say for sure they qualified because the article didnt specify the distances they were traveling).
Read the requirements for class "A" and class "B" closely.
Its clear to me that the first requirement to be met is the 26001lbs. If you dont exceed 26001lbs, you dont need a CDL.
To say it simply, class A states, any combination of vehicles over 26000 towing a trailer over 10000. Class B states, any vehicle over 26000 towing a trailer under 10000.

Even simpler - straight out of the WV CDL manual
"Who does the CDL law effect
*A vehicle weighing 26001lbs or more (GVWR)
*A vehicle designed to carry 16 or more people
*A placarded vehicle carrying hazardous material

So you could drive a one ton pickup with a GVWR of 11000lbs, pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 12000lbs, (total 23000lbs) and not need a CDL. You may still need a DOT# (which would require a medical card, extinguisher, triangles, fuses), but not a CDL.

Its stories like this that propagate the myth. We read the story about someone getting a ticket or warning but we never find out that later, the charges were dropped.

The problem arises from the fact that the US Government has implemented conflicting definitions in two major regulations that drivers have to deal with...Parts 383 and 390...
You are referencing PART 383 -- : Title (COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE STANDARDS; REQUIREMENTS AND PENALTIES)....Part 383.5 - Definitions. specifically...
Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

You need to be aware of PART 390, which is what state DOT officials are using...INCORRECTLY, apparently...:D -- : Title (RULEMAKING PROCEDURES--FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY REGULATIONS)
Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

especially 390.5 - Definitions.

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Now if we go back to your citation in....

383.5 - Definitions.

Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

As you can see upon closer reading these guys have redefined what a commercial vehicle is Part 390....

"VERY INTERESTING...BUT STUPID" - Arty Johnson (Laugh-In)

No wonder no one can get a straight answer...there are TWO definitions of Commercial Motor Vehicles...
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #55  
The example of the 12000lbs trailer wasnt directed at you or anyone, it was just coincidental.
The act of 1986 is what put all the states on the same page as far as CDLs are concerned. There are still a couple states who have MORE strict regs but they arent allowed to have LESS strict regs and most of them have the same regs.
All the states still have their own rules as far as intrastate and farm use. This fact, along with the fact that most people dont know the difference between needing a DOT number and needing a CDL adds to the confusion. It doesnt help that many officials dont even know the specifics. If you want to know the regs, youve got to do the research yourself. Read them yourself and understand them yourself (john-this isnt directed at you, you seem to have done that already). Paul asked me about WV regs. I gave them to him in black and write, straight from the manuals. I didnt call Billybob who asked his cousin Spider who cleans the toilets at the local weigh station what he thought.
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #56  
PaulChristenson said:
The problem arises from the fact that the US Government has implemented conflicting definitions in two major regulations that drivers have to deal with...Parts 383 and 390...
You are referencing PART 383 -- : Title (COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE STANDARDS; REQUIREMENTS AND PENALTIES)....Part 383.5 - Definitions. specifically...
Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

You need to be aware of PART 390, which is what state DOT officials are using...INCORRECTLY, apparently...:D -- : Title (RULEMAKING PROCEDURES--FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIER SAFETY REGULATIONS)
Regulations - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

especially 390.5 - Definitions.

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Now if we go back to your citation in....

383.5 - Definitions.

Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

As you can see upon closer reading these guys have redefined what a commercial vehicle is Part 390....

"VERY INTERESTING...BUT STUPID" - Arty Johnson (Laugh-In)

No wonder no one can get a straight answer...there are TWO definitions of Commercial Motor Vehicles...

Nice job of rounding up the regs.
Youve found out the crux of the problem. The thing to remember though is that its the individual states who monitor CMV traffic in their state. Their jurisdiction is to enforce STATE law, not federal.

Even if you read the applicability of 390.3, it will send you to 383.5 for a definition of CMV.
 
   / USDOT number - What it means?
  • Thread Starter
#57  
RayH said:
All the states still have their own rules as far as intrastate and farm use. This fact, along with the fact that most people dont know the difference between needing a DOT number and needing a CDL adds to the confusion. It doesnt help that many officials dont even know the specifics. If you want to know the regs, youve got to do the research yourself. Read them yourself and understand them yourself (john-this isnt directed at you, you seem to have done that already).


Ray,

Actually, I agree completely. But, the ability to read and understand the regs is not acquired over night, and it's hard to even find the ones that apply. It was easier for me, as there were helpful folks here that were able to point them out to me and help me sound out the words (ha ha).

Even with the state troopers, they didn't know the exact regs and had to have a person at the state headquarters find it. If the people enforcing the regs don't understand them fully, not that anyone can, it's no wonder us normal folks are confused.
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #58  
So if I follow this correctly, since 2000, as far as US DOT goes, a vehicle used for interstate commerce (or intrastate in a state that has adopted that requirement) needs DOT numbers if over 10000lb GVW, but you don't need a CDL to drive that vehicle unless it is over 26,000lbs total combined weight. Now when the sign says for commercial vehicles to enter the scales.... Who are they talking to? I guess anyone with a DOT number? or anyone with a CDL driving a commercial vehicle even if it is an empty one ton dually?
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #59  
bluechip said:
So if I follow this correctly, since 2000, as far as US DOT goes, a vehicle used for interstate commerce (or intrastate in a state that has adopted that requirement) needs DOT numbers if over 10000lb GVW, but you don't need a CDL to drive that vehicle unless it is over 26,000lbs total combined weight. Now when the sign says for commercial vehicles to enter the scales.... Who are they talking to? I guess anyone with a DOT number? or anyone with a CDL driving a commercial vehicle even if it is an empty one ton dually?

You are correct about the DOT# and CDL requirements.
As far as the weigh station is concerned. It depends. The states run the weigh stations so each one will be different depending on the state. Some simply say "all trucks" taken literally could mean a Toyota Tacoma. Some say "commercial vehicles" but they dont mean buses, some do require buses to pull in. Some say vehicles over 10000lbs but they only mean CMV over 10000lbs (you dont see RVs going through). I think its safe to say (I hate generalizing because someone will call me out on it) if you have a DOT# (whether it be a state DOT or a USDOT #), you should be going through the weigh station. If you dont have a DOT #, skip it. Empty or loaded, doesnt matter. Many times, they arent weighing you when you go through, they are checking your numbers (DOT #) to make sure its valid and legal. Thers not much more frustrating then being empty and getting the light to go over the scales and sitting there for five minutes while they run your numbers.
 
   / USDOT number - What it means? #60  
Well I downloaded the Oklahoma CDL handbook and I determined that I don't need a CDL. (with a 10500lbs trailer behind my 9600lbs GVWR truck = 20100lbs). And I don't need a DOT number since I do not get paid to haul anything, my farm tag does not make it commercial (interstate) since once I am 150 miles from home I am no longer considered "farm". If the farm tags is causing problems I would go back to regular tags since the $60 yearly saving is not worth any extra problems.
 

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