ULSD in 2007 Chinese Tractors

[greg_g]

Didn't they need to be tested with the new fuel to meet the EPA standard?

The rest of your sarcasm notwithstanding, this question proves you too missed my point. There have always been two sets of EPA standards: on-road and off- road. I'm wanting to know if the 2007 on-road ULSD (25 ppm) can be used without additives in a 2007 Chinese diesel that's got an EPA approved off-road engine.

Based upon the Tier 4 implementation chart, I think the answer is no. But I'd like somebody closer to the source to confirm/refute my interpretation.

Proposed Tier 4 Emission Standards (grams/horsepower-hour)*​

Rated Power ............................................First Year that Standards Apply..... PM..... NOx
less than 25 hp..... .................................................2008........................ ....0.30..... --
equal to or more than 25, but less than 75............... 2013............................ 0.02.....3.5*
equal to or more than 75, but less than 175............. 2012-2014.................... 0.02... 0.30
equal to or more than 175, but less than 750 ...........2011-2013.................... 0.01... 0.30
greater than or equal to 750 ...................................2011-2014 ....................0.01... 0.30

//greg//

 

[thingy]

Well,wait no longer,the answer is yes,,,,,[but just to be on the safe side,use power service too],thingy

 

[greg_g]

Well,wait no longer,the answer is yes,,,,,

All right Richard, put your money where your mouth is. Prove it !

//greg//

 

[SPIKER]

All right Richard, put your money where your mouth is. Prove it !

//greg//

I see that this is something we are all not 100% sure about:

what greg is wanting to know (MYSELF INCLUDED) is that in OLD engines the sulfur in the fuel was there for other reasons than to pollute the environment, it was there basically just like LEAD was in the OLD regular gas to help seal ring, seats and to help detonation on lower octane fuels. now I know that the sulfur has/had other properties and that was part of the reason it was there. now just like the old LEADED GAS ENGINES that needed to run after the lead ban required a valve seat re-work (adding hardened valve seats) or a fuel/gas additive of lead substitute... now will our newer non 2007 engines run for 5000 hrs on the no sulfur fuel or will the rings/valve start having problems due to not enough sulfur in there???? that is the real 64 dollar question!


Mark M

 

[thingy]

Greg,well,,,,I am,I guess I am,,my jinma is over 4 1/2 years old,,and I am using road grade desil in it,and always have used road grade desil,[didn't really think they was a difference with it and off road,except die and tax],but I don't use that much. I've always used power service winter and summer,mines got 560 hours and still runs great,now I know they are making desil with less sulpher etc,for polution reason,now,or thats the rumor,at a refinory I was working at a month or so ago,ain't looked at pumps yet to see,,but guess so,,its a good question,but other than adding an additive like power service,what can we do?One things pretty much for sure though,if the new desil does harm valves and stuff in the motor,,they will be alot more people in trouble than just chinese tractor owners,,I think I'll start adding a little more power service now than previously,, now that you got me to thinking about it. Money,,I ain't got none,,,if I had money,I'd go buy one a them automatic yuppy tractors,with air conditioning and radio,and cup holders,,,thingy

 

[MadReferee]

now will our newer non 2007 engines run for 5000 hrs on the no sulfur fuel or will the rings/valve start having problems due to not enough sulfur in there???? that is the real 64 dollar question!

See the second post in this thread where I posted the EPA response to your question. According to the EPA the answer is that there is an extremely high degree of probability that you will have no problems.

But it appears that the chinese engine owners here on TBN do not believe the EPA. So based on that belief, nobody will really know until someone puts 5000 hours on an engine. I suppose that could happen in California where ULSD is mandated for ALL fuel (on or off road) TODAY. But I don't think you will want to wait around the few years it will take for the results.

BTW, just as a point of reference, I have been running ULSD in my 43 year old dozer since august and have had no problems. I am sure that newer technology engines will have no problems either.

 

[bluechip]

I met an engineer at one of the chinese engine factories who was very involved in their EPA program and I have sent him an email concerning this issue. The ULSD has been crated to meet 2007 ON ROAD emmissions requirements. I suspect it was not used to meet 2007 OFF ROAD requirements of our chinese tractors. so the question i posed was two fold:
1 what fuel did you use to qualify for epa certification? (This informations is to appear on the EPA label) and 2: will ULSD harm a 2007 engine that is not required to use it.

I suspect the amount of hours most put on these engines will not see any harm. Like the big scare about lead for collector cars. most dont see 2000 miles a year so it didn't matter at all, others use additives or had harder valve seats put in.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can explain what the sulfer was there to do, lubricate valves? injector pump parts? or is it just naturally present in diesel and now they have to cook it more to take it out...

I hope to have an answer from one chinese engine company soon.

 

[greg_g]

But it appears that the chinese engine owners here on TBN do not believe the EPA.

You're wrong Ref. From what I can tell, you're still treating this as an on-road issue. My concern regards the arbitrary use of the new 2007 on road ULSD in a 2007 off road Chinese tractor. I was trying to confirm my suspicions that additives would still be needed

So with some further investigation, I finally came up with this; Tier 3 emission standards apply to the manufacture of new off-road diesel engines through the end of 2008. During Tiers 1, 2, and 3, the sulfur content in off-road diesel fuels was not limited by environmental regulations. The oil industry specification was 0.5% (wt., max), with the average in-use sulfur level of about 0.3% = 3,000 ppm. The Tier 3 standards are met through advanced engine design, most commonly without the use of exhaust gas after-treatment (oxidation catalysts). Relative to that 3000 ppm figure, the current 500 ppm on-road diesel is considered LSD (Low Sulfer Diesel)

To enable sulfur-sensitive control technologies in Tier 4 engines—such as catalytic particulate filters and NOx adsorbers—the EPA mandated reductions in sulfur content in off road diesel fuels, as follows: 500 ppm effective June 2007 for off road, locomotive and marine (NRLM) diesel fuels, followed by 15 ppm (ultra-low sulfur diesel) effective June 2010 for off road fuel, and June 2012 for locomotive and marine fuels. So the answer turns out to apply to all 2007 off-road diesels, not just Chinese tractors. They're still manufactured under the Tier 3 (and can use 500 ppm fuel). That's the same stuff I pumped into my Mercedes at a Pilot station yesterday, from a pump that was prominently marked "Illegal to use in on-road engines manufactured after 1-1-2007". The Tier 4 stuff (25ppm and lower) hasn't even been introduced to my area yet, but will go into engines equipped with exhaust scrubbing devices that would otherwise get clogged with residuals from the current 500 ppm fuel.

To answer my own question then; Yes, lubricity additives are should be considered necessary when on-road ULSD is used in 2007 model year Chinese tractors. Period. Oh, and I see this applies to California too.

BTW, just as a point of reference, I have been running ULSD in my 43 year old dozer since august and have had no problems. I am sure that newer technology engines will have no problems either.

Good luck with that. I'd be off to the store for some more Power Service Slick Diesel if I were you. (Power Service Products, diesel fuel additives, prevent gelling, clean injectors, disperse water, boost cetane, reduce emissions, improve fuel economy)

//greg//

 

[MadReferee]

Ah, but if you have been following other posts and reading up on what is actually happening regarding off-road fuel you will find that the 2010 deadline is just that, a deadline to have all fuel having <15 ppm sulphur (ULSD). The current requirement is that at least 80% of fuel produced or imported be ULSD. The EPA has given the refineries until 2010 to get that number to 100%. The reality of the situation is that the refineries are only producing ULSD and the batches that don't meet ULSD specs are being sold as LSD (<500 ppm). Earlier this month the EPA in a press release said that the actual percentage of ULSD is now at 85%. The refineries are ahead of schedule in meeting the 2010 deadline.

LSD is becoming scarce and will become more so in the very near future as the refineries get better at making ULSD. This will mean higher prices and less availability for LSD. What are you going to do when LSD is no longer available in your area? It may be sooner than you anticipate.

As for the lubricity issue, I have posted several sources for information regarding this. Both the EPA and Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance have said that the new fuel from the bulk distribution centers meets or exceeds the current standard for lubricity in diesel fuel that all LSD fuel has been meeting since January 2005. They (EPA etc) have clearly stated that no lubricity additives are necessary when using ULSD.

I suggest you do some more research.

I am not one to believe that the sky is falling and have no problem using ULSD in any of my diesel engines. I do use Power Service but I always have. In any event, ULSD is all that is available in the northeast. If you want a LSD fuel you have got to use HHO which is not equivalent to diesel.

Of course none of the above applies to California since they are already 100% ULSD compliant for on-road, off-road, locomotive, and marine fuel.

 

[SkyPup]

ULSD will be fine for ALL Diesel Engines, on or off road, made in China, Japan, Romania, USA, etc.

Remember, sulfur stinks, it is NOT a lubricant, it is a just bad contaminate.