Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!
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... Steve
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hawkeye08
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My daughter and SIL are building their house right now (hillside daylight basement). The back wall is 10", around 9' tall. Lots of rebar. They saved some money by working with the concrete guy as his labor. They put tubing in slab floor in case they wanted to do radiant heat, very carefully mapped it out and so far have not drilled into any of it while putting the interior walls in.
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dragoneggs
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Thanks for all the posts and comments, guys! I am quickly getting very nervous about this project. I really want to be the General on this but because of the slope, the high walls, the extra engineering, I am wondering if I can pull it off. I'm quite sure if I turn this over to a builder, I won't be able to afford what I really want! I don't want to have a half azzed shop that I regret. Does this mean I should look to build a more standard 'house' build? Hope not!
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Earlier this year I was in your same design question stage. We built a house with a walk out basement into a hillside. It was a perfect setup for us. Everything is on main first floor for us, with the walkout basement for future bedrooms and craft/storage areas now.
For the workshop/storage building I wanted to build it also into a hillside, but the elevation change was not good. Like you I wanted at least 10ft overhead doors up and down. Wood working shop would be upstairs with a 12ft ceiling height. This allows me to drill holes in a 8ft 2x4 on one end, and turn it vertically to drill the opposite end. I also wanted the upstairs overhead door to allow for lumber unloading and projects going out. (I need to build our kitchen cabinets still.) I could live with the upper floor at tailgate height if possible. This would elimate a vehicle driving in to far onto the floor trusses. Also not sure what the building codes would say about a loading dock on a residential structure. But my hillside did not have the height required. So I ended up going with everything on one floor. So now because the elevation difference, one half has 2 poured concrete walls 64" tall and the other area 16" tall. I wanted 16" concrete walls above outside grade. Building is 72ft wide, 36 ft deep. If the would have been 2 stories, it would have been like 30ft wide x 50ft into the hill. Yes a 2 story building would have some great benefits like running dust collection and electrical underneath the floor, the head aches for the design and lack of a large enough hill, I am stuck with a single story. But that allows me to have in floor heat. I don't want forced air flow in my wood shop. Just some thoughts. Good luck with your design. Jon
For the workshop/storage building I wanted to build it also into a hillside, but the elevation change was not good. Like you I wanted at least 10ft overhead doors up and down. Wood working shop would be upstairs with a 12ft ceiling height. This allows me to drill holes in a 8ft 2x4 on one end, and turn it vertically to drill the opposite end. I also wanted the upstairs overhead door to allow for lumber unloading and projects going out. (I need to build our kitchen cabinets still.) I could live with the upper floor at tailgate height if possible. This would elimate a vehicle driving in to far onto the floor trusses. Also not sure what the building codes would say about a loading dock on a residential structure. But my hillside did not have the height required. So I ended up going with everything on one floor. So now because the elevation difference, one half has 2 poured concrete walls 64" tall and the other area 16" tall. I wanted 16" concrete walls above outside grade. Building is 72ft wide, 36 ft deep. If the would have been 2 stories, it would have been like 30ft wide x 50ft into the hill. Yes a 2 story building would have some great benefits like running dust collection and electrical underneath the floor, the head aches for the design and lack of a large enough hill, I am stuck with a single story. But that allows me to have in floor heat. I don't want forced air flow in my wood shop. Just some thoughts. Good luck with your design. Jon
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Just a few random thoughts as someone with a two level downslope garage.
Mine is 22 x 30 with 8' 3" ceiling above the top floor slab and 7' 4" above the ground floor slab.
Top floor concrete slab is supported by wood joists with plywood subfloor.
Ground level is concrete slab over drain rock with drain lines to daylight that work very well.
I did not build the top floor as it was existing when I bought. I did concrete the ground floor.
Like everyone... often thought just a little more elbow room say 24 x 36 deep or even 32 deep would have been great for restoring cars... 22 is a little narrow but Model A and T Fords are not big cars... I can get 6 in for storage with no room to work or two and have room to work.
The downslope is steep and the farther out one goes the more the slope and rear wall height is an issue... we have limits on downslope rear wall heights here too. I drop a little over 7' in 30'
Would rotating your shop 90 degrees be possible?
A 36 wide x 30 deep would give you 1080 square feet and reduce the immense height at the back...
Never having a wood working shop I can't comment on ceiling height but the lower level with a 7' tall garage doors is immensely usable for many things and home to my BX23, landscape tools, saws, pumps, etc.
The 8' 3" high interior height of the top floor works well for pulling engines and I have a strategically placed beam for this.
It would seem 9' would be enough to work and help with the winter heating?
One thing I did that helped a lot was building a stacked block retaining wall 18' out from the lower level which provides a nice gravel area for those projects you don't want to do inside... degreasing, painting, taking things apart... it was one of the fastest projects I did after being inspired by you terrace work when you picked up your BX.
The aesthetics might* be more attractive without the 30' high rear wall... of course going with a hip roof helps to lessen the visual impact...
My top concrete slab floor is supported by 2 posts below... really has not been a problem for the lower level.
Trees... I love the idea of trees and it makes the PNW such a special place... after the severe windstorm some years back where large firs toppled left and right I had to get aggressive as I viewed each as a potential threat and acted accordingly... plus, my roof surface requires much less maintenance since trees were removed.
Do you need to bore for piers to meet code where you are? Here any slope at all requires piers... often the rebar and concrete piers go down 24' to meet seismic requirements... my garage was built before seismic code but neighbors that built in the last 20+ years have spent a fortune on foundation work... drilling, rebar and concrete
The old way of thinking is a foundation supported the structure and today is flipped in that the foundation holds the structure down in earthquake country.
Square footprints tend to give the most bang for the buck... a 36 x 36 shop is 1296 square feet with 144 lineal feet of exterior wall...
A 25 x 40 is nearly 300 square feet smaller at 1000 square feet but still has 130 lineal feet of exterior wall...
Mine is 22 x 30 with 8' 3" ceiling above the top floor slab and 7' 4" above the ground floor slab.
Top floor concrete slab is supported by wood joists with plywood subfloor.
Ground level is concrete slab over drain rock with drain lines to daylight that work very well.
I did not build the top floor as it was existing when I bought. I did concrete the ground floor.
Like everyone... often thought just a little more elbow room say 24 x 36 deep or even 32 deep would have been great for restoring cars... 22 is a little narrow but Model A and T Fords are not big cars... I can get 6 in for storage with no room to work or two and have room to work.
The downslope is steep and the farther out one goes the more the slope and rear wall height is an issue... we have limits on downslope rear wall heights here too. I drop a little over 7' in 30'
Would rotating your shop 90 degrees be possible?
A 36 wide x 30 deep would give you 1080 square feet and reduce the immense height at the back...
Never having a wood working shop I can't comment on ceiling height but the lower level with a 7' tall garage doors is immensely usable for many things and home to my BX23, landscape tools, saws, pumps, etc.
The 8' 3" high interior height of the top floor works well for pulling engines and I have a strategically placed beam for this.
It would seem 9' would be enough to work and help with the winter heating?
One thing I did that helped a lot was building a stacked block retaining wall 18' out from the lower level which provides a nice gravel area for those projects you don't want to do inside... degreasing, painting, taking things apart... it was one of the fastest projects I did after being inspired by you terrace work when you picked up your BX.
The aesthetics might* be more attractive without the 30' high rear wall... of course going with a hip roof helps to lessen the visual impact...
My top concrete slab floor is supported by 2 posts below... really has not been a problem for the lower level.
Trees... I love the idea of trees and it makes the PNW such a special place... after the severe windstorm some years back where large firs toppled left and right I had to get aggressive as I viewed each as a potential threat and acted accordingly... plus, my roof surface requires much less maintenance since trees were removed.
Do you need to bore for piers to meet code where you are? Here any slope at all requires piers... often the rebar and concrete piers go down 24' to meet seismic requirements... my garage was built before seismic code but neighbors that built in the last 20+ years have spent a fortune on foundation work... drilling, rebar and concrete
The old way of thinking is a foundation supported the structure and today is flipped in that the foundation holds the structure down in earthquake country.
Square footprints tend to give the most bang for the buck... a 36 x 36 shop is 1296 square feet with 144 lineal feet of exterior wall...
A 25 x 40 is nearly 300 square feet smaller at 1000 square feet but still has 130 lineal feet of exterior wall...
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dragoneggs
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I could reduce the ceiling heights for each floor I suppose. I just know that I am shy of 8ft in my existing garage shop and I hate it. In adding any kind of gantry whether now or in the future, I feel a 10ft height is minimum. The grade seems to be dictating a 12ft lower floor but that has not been confirmed.
I could rotate the footprint 90deg but I would be creating more of an eye sore and means wiping out another 'defining' tree not to mention additional distance along the high side of the foundation. I totally get the maintenance issues and potential damage as I lived with this issue at three properties, most all my life (except apartment life in the Bay Area). Note all of the surrounding trees have been topped several times to preserve my above neighbor's view (at their expense). Not worried at all about trees coming down... more the issue of droppings and shade on the roof... so I am considering metal and maybe a steeper than 4:12 roof that matches the main house.
Having a flat (thanks Eddie) for the downhill side is planned but currently only four feet. I could build another wall similar to my other terraces to get to 8ft width. Just wasn't part of the plan prior to build. Maybe should be. Crap!
Hip roof is more expensive than gable and does lessen the monstrosity. Maybe I don't hip on one side?
Foundation is what has me worried. Some of you may have followed my 'Building the Wall' thread of my neighbor's project replacing a railroad tie bulkhead with concrete block. The cost was crazy expensive because of code, geotechnical requirements, etc. I am hoping my foundation design doesn't amount to anywhere near the ordeal my neighbor went through. Of course he was dealing with 150ft or so wall I am 'only' talking about 25ft.
Keep encouraging me and be patient. This will be an ordeal if I don't chicken out.
I could rotate the footprint 90deg but I would be creating more of an eye sore and means wiping out another 'defining' tree not to mention additional distance along the high side of the foundation. I totally get the maintenance issues and potential damage as I lived with this issue at three properties, most all my life (except apartment life in the Bay Area). Note all of the surrounding trees have been topped several times to preserve my above neighbor's view (at their expense). Not worried at all about trees coming down... more the issue of droppings and shade on the roof... so I am considering metal and maybe a steeper than 4:12 roof that matches the main house.
Having a flat (thanks Eddie) for the downhill side is planned but currently only four feet. I could build another wall similar to my other terraces to get to 8ft width. Just wasn't part of the plan prior to build. Maybe should be. Crap!
Hip roof is more expensive than gable and does lessen the monstrosity. Maybe I don't hip on one side?
Foundation is what has me worried. Some of you may have followed my 'Building the Wall' thread of my neighbor's project replacing a railroad tie bulkhead with concrete block. The cost was crazy expensive because of code, geotechnical requirements, etc. I am hoping my foundation design doesn't amount to anywhere near the ordeal my neighbor went through. Of course he was dealing with 150ft or so wall I am 'only' talking about 25ft.
Keep encouraging me and be patient. This will be an ordeal if I don't chicken out.
ultrarunner
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Depending of roof chosen you can often carve out more interior space by being creative.
On a very small scale with 1920's detached garages I was able to raise the ceiling joists to the lower 1/3 of the rafters and gained 18" of very usable headroom except at the perimeter walls...
The challenge is coming up with a design that checks all boxes...efficient, suits the topography and compliments existing structures...
It is hard to comment on costs because everything is prohibitively expensive here... the land of 40k bath remodels and 100k kitchens... skilled labor has all the work it wants with all the rebuilding post Northern CA fires... the name is not wages but profit...
I found Olympia to be very similar with 60 to 80k bids to rebuild 12 year old decks... nearly keeled over because when it was all said an done I actually had less than what I started with in square footage.
On a very small scale with 1920's detached garages I was able to raise the ceiling joists to the lower 1/3 of the rafters and gained 18" of very usable headroom except at the perimeter walls...
The challenge is coming up with a design that checks all boxes...efficient, suits the topography and compliments existing structures...
It is hard to comment on costs because everything is prohibitively expensive here... the land of 40k bath remodels and 100k kitchens... skilled labor has all the work it wants with all the rebuilding post Northern CA fires... the name is not wages but profit...
I found Olympia to be very similar with 60 to 80k bids to rebuild 12 year old decks... nearly keeled over because when it was all said an done I actually had less than what I started with in square footage.
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dragoneggs
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I attended Berkeley for the purpose of becoming an architect. I quickly learned I was no artist as I struggled to think outside the 'box'. Thankfully UW granted me an ME degree. Funny now that my profession involves lots of curved structures (aerospace). Thinking out loud here so bare with me... but it seems efficiency... when it comes to the air, is a totally different shape than if on the ground! Need to sleep on it some more. Hopefully I don't end up contributing to the 'weird dreams' thread tomorrow! :laughing:
ultrarunner
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I have no doubt you will overcome and can't wait for the build thread!
