Tractor Tranny Tracking: From HST to GST to ...

JerryG · Apr 27, 2004

I'm willing to bet that you get an experienced operator with a power shuttle and an operator with a hydro, work them side by side you would not see much difference other than the fuel bill of the hydro being more.

I agree. I know that I can go for long stretches at a time with out using the clutch with my PowerShuttle. The turbo really helps to keep me from shifting as often also. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TBone · Apr 27, 2004

"I've said this before, but I guess it bears repeating. Whenever the subject of hydro vs. gears comes up, the gear folks always sing the praises of shuttle shift. All that proves is they don't like to use the clutch any more than the hydro folks. " 

Don, my shuttle shift (as others I have seen) requires the use of the clutch, rather than eliminates it. As someone else said the shuttle just simplifies the forward/reverse process by allowing you to change directions with one smooth movement (and without stopping the tractor).

I don't think anyone's mind will be changed on their transmission preference but I do think we will see more and more hst tractors and they will slowly become the norm just like automatic transmissions have in automobiles.

However, some of us old diehards will probably still be chugging along on gear tractors till we get too old to climb up on 'em. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I rented a small Kubota with HST several years ago and used it for two days clearing a building lot and moving some dirt around. After the normal learning curve I actually got pretty proficient with it but when I returned it to its owner I swore I would never own one of those screaming things /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif and I never have (or will).

To each his own. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TBone

Tractors4u · Apr 27, 2004

( All that proves is they don't like to use the clutch any more than the hydro folks. )

Like someone else mention, it just makes forward to reverse quicker. I still use my clutch, sometimes I have to remind myself that I don't have to use it. The shuttle lever allows me to shift blindly so to speak. To go forward to reverse I don't have to look at the shifter to find reverse or the right gear. I just flick that lever on the steering column and GO.

catsco · Apr 27, 2004

Interesting reading regarding HST vs. gear.

My brother pointed out to me (in his 'different' way of looking at things) that my road vehicles all have manual transmissions and my tractor is HST. He thinks I am bit daft.

HOWEVER, having done quite a bit of work over the years on transfer cases, transmissions, and differentials, one advantage of HST is the simplicity (usually).

Somehow, it's fun to rebuild a Muncie manaul gearbox in a vintage Chevelle, but drudgery to fix a differential on a Ford 8N, what with the preloads, etc. on the pinion and all the careful work required.

On the HST (depending upon brand) it's more fun to swap hydro pumps and/or gear motors and keep on having fun while the offending parts sit on the workbench waiting for placement in the 'to do' list.

For me, at least, it's the difference between going for a Sunday drive in the mountains as opposed to driving to work.

Same operation, just no inclination to turn wrenches to be able to do the second one as opposed to tinkering being an integral part of the first.

Mark H.

Egon · Apr 27, 2004

The great debate!! My very small tractor has HST which is perferable to me for the work I do.

If I was sitting 15 feet plus up in the air and looking at 8 driving tires in front of sixty feet of implements the gear version would be my choice.

If I was pulling equipment that had to dispense seeds or chemicals at a controlled rate the gear tractor would again be my choice.

If I was doing 12 hour day loader work the HST would be my choice regardless of size.

If I was only doing occasional loader work HST for the small tractor, gears for the large one.

It's all a situational situation.

Egon

CTyler · Apr 27, 2004

( What I mean is if you are using a pto device and it is requiring most of your hp and the resistance for the hydro increases (going up a steep hill) you will need more power but there not much there due to the PTO using it up. So the options are to slow down youe speed or decrease the resistance on the PTO. The machine then becomes less effeicient. )

Then you undersized the machine to begin with. If you know the requirements then buy the hp to cover it and don't blame the HST. It doens't matter what you have gear, hydro, etc.. if there isn't enough hp it will be slower and/or less efficient.

My L3130 is a hydro with 25 PTO hp. If it needed 25 PTO hp to run a mower and bogs and crawls up a hill then its my own fault for not getting more hp or a smaller mower.

DAP · Apr 27, 2004

Dr. Rich ...

( First of all there is absolutely no reason for a hydro in the 8000 series. They already have IVT, Infinitely variable transmission. But on this tractor it's imperative to be able to match the ground speed to the implement with planting, plowing, discing, chisel plow, etc. Once you find the right gear range then you don't have to find it everytime. With one touch of the button I set the tractor basically on cruise control. I don't press any hydro pedals or anything. A hydro just isn't necessary in these bigger tractors. There's no need to put one in a tractor this size.))

Functionally, that IVT has much more in common with an actual hydrostatically controlled transmission than a Shuttle or a GST tranny, sounds to me, and you like (nay, need) em for the same reasons HST people like HST.

( As far as finesse goes if we're talking about something you do for a living then I can or any other farmer or rancher can finesse a tractor with gears just the same as anyone with a hydro. Finesse is really a non-issue to anyone that has operated a machine for any length of time. If you're talking about someone who has never operated a tractor before you may have somewhat of an argument. )

Aw mulebread ... controlling the machine to as exacting amount as possible is an issue for ANYONE who uses it for ANYTHING. The HST type trannies (your IVT included) will decrease the learning curve for folks with less experience, making them more productive, sooner and safer.

( In your world I'm sure a hydro makes all the sense in the world to you and you couldn't see how it could be any different. But for a row crop tractor, not a chore tractor, there is absolutely no need for a hydro and there would be absolutely no benefit to having one. )

Pay attention Rich. Those were my words in the first post. And take a tip, generally, it's bad form and not very neighborly to make statements like ( ... and you couldn't see how it could be any different. )

Some folks (certainly not me) might thing you meant that like it came out. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

slowrev · Apr 27, 2004

HST machines are very nice till they break, then a 2.50 O ring can cost 1,200 to install ! If you just keep them for several years and trade them in, no problem, if you buy them to keep forever than it will be a costly repair down the road.

Towing a Hydro tractor can also be a problem. Pull starting ?? A gear transmission does not quit pulling if the fluid gets a bit low or suck air and quit on some steep slopes.

There is considerable debate on doing draft work with a Hydro transmission as well.

Well that is all of the potential problems I can think of with Hydro's.

Tractors4u · Apr 27, 2004

( Some folks (certainly not me) might thing you meant that like it came out. )

I have to wonder if you meant these these things to sound the way they do?

( I will say this: GST (as opposed to Hydro or Variable Speed Trannies) are dated technology and a neanderthal-like hold-overs from the technology of yesteryear.
)

( In this day an age however, GST remains as a relic to the past as far as engineering goes )

This thread sounds like it was meant to do nothing more than stir the pot. Most of the HST vs Gear discussions innocently spin off from another discussion where as this one was started intenionally. We might as well go back to talking about bringing the draft back.

ljh2 · Apr 27, 2004

DAP,
Sounds to me that you are describing a standard Gear Shift as opposed to Kubota's Glide-Shift (GST) transmission. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif The Glide Shift has a Hydraulic Shuttle that does not require the use of the clutch peddle for speed or direction changes. I first had the opportunity to use a GlideShift transmission on a friend's tractor a few years ago and thought it was a LOT easier than the old Gear jobs that I grew up with for loader work. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My M6800 has standard clutch/gear for speed/range selection, but also has a Hydraulic Shuttle. It does not require clutching to change directions. I sometimes still catch myself clutching when I don't need to though. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I agree that using the loader on a standard Gear Shift tractor takes a toll on your left leg real fast, but the Hydraulic Shuttle makes loader operation pretty smooth... maybe not as smooth as Hydrostatic, but pretty nice. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

OkeeDon · Apr 27, 2004

my shuttle shift (as others I have seen) requires the use of the clutch, rather than eliminates it. 

I guess that just shows my ignorance. First, I assumed that GST meant "Gear Shift Transmission" as opposed to "Hydraulic Shift Transmission." I confess I have no technical knowledge of the differences, other than one requires a clutch, and one doesn't (for most purposes). I don't even know if those are the correct expansions of the acronyms.

Second, I assumed that all, or most, shuttle shift transmissions worked the way as the big Cat 416 that I used last year. I don't know the technical name for what it's called, but once I had it moving, I didn't have to use a clutch -- I could shift from forward to reverse, shift to higher or lower gears, etc., just by pushing levers. Now that I think about it, it probably had some sort of electronic clutch that was activated by the levers. I know that it had a button on the loader joystick that would throw the clutch momentarily, making it easier to dump the load. It was as much fun to drive as my hydro. In my ignorance, I assumed all shuttle shifts worked that way.

But, my bottom line remains the same. For the purposes that most of use our compact tractors, I believe hydro is more controllable than basic gear shifting. And, in the case of my little tractor, I didn't have the option of shuttle shift, IVT, Glide Shift, electronic clutches or anything but a straight, old-fashioned gear shift, and I'm glad I don't have it.

_RaT_ · Apr 27, 2004

"HST machines are very nice till they break, then a 2.50 O ring can cost 1,200 to install ! If you just keep them for several years and trade them in, no problem, if you buy them to keep forever than it will be a costly repair down the road.

Towing a Hydro tractor can also be a problem. Pull starting ?? A gear transmission does not quit pulling if the fluid gets a bit low or suck air and quit on some steep slopes.

There is considerable debate on doing draft work with a Hydro transmission as well.

Well that is all of the potential problems I can think of with Hydro's."

Why do I have the feeling this post is purely subjective rather then objective. My experience as well as those of many others with HST will probably not allow this post to hold up to scrutiny.

Not being able to pull start a tractor, is that a big deal? Do you have issues where you do this routinely? I have yet to get my wife out to have her drag my gear International around to start it, I use jumper cables. If the starter went bad which since 1974 has never happened, I would simply replace it since in all likelyhood, you would do it anyway. My L3830 with HST could not have a more accesable starter. I could tow it, but where? Again, a 2 person job. Any distance and I'd put it on a trailer. Sucking air? wow, at the angles I have been on, my International would loose diesel before my Kubota would suck air. At that angle, sucking air might be a good thing because any more angle and I'd rollover or do a flip, what a great safety device. Splitting any tractor requires a great deal of labor be it gear, shuttle or HST. I doubt you have any data to support failure rates on HST. My 3 local dealers do and they would certainly bring what experience if any you have into question. HST or shuttle, both work exceptionally well. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Rat...

CTyler · Apr 28, 2004

If my L3130 hydro won't start pull start when needed then I'm going to chuck in the river right after I jump start it.

DAP · Apr 28, 2004

( Nothing I can do to stop a thread from going where it's gonna go so ....
)

Thanks to all for your comments, founded, unfounded, intelligent or ..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Knowing (and not really caring) where this thread would go, I'll merely reiterate its original intent.

That being to relate my 1st hand experience with the GST doing hours of loader work. I could have used a NH/Ford HST for those hours but purposely chose the GST machine to acquire the actual experience. I didn't kill me. (I did sustain some very minor injury to my r. hand because of a stubborn throttle which would only move with a sharp wrap with the palm or a 2 handed clench. If I owned this machine, the linkage would be first on the list.) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

All the BS aside (the auto truck tranny was a good one! People seem to forget that you can control what gear you'd like whether you have a clutch or not - HOW it shifts is the center of the debate, not that it DOES), I know one can save some money in today's tractor market by side-stepping the HST option in almost all cases - or you can apply those savings and opt up for a lil larger machine.

As far as GST operations, I know I needn't clutch to change speeds or directions, but it is simply not that simple. Clutch work is mandatory for GST and loader chores. Gradual stops and starts require the clutch. In the short time I used this unit (11 hrs) I learned in the first 5 minutes to approach a load full in low gear slowly, and transport the load in a higher gear and finally dump in a lower gear due to the dump location. For my tasks, even 1st gear was not slow enough in practice - the clutch was needed for transition speeds. Period.

Additionally, I had a 7ft. landscape rake on the hitch and had to place that implement in some exacting positions (fence lines, slopes, etc.). Doesn't matter what gear your in for this, just better be going in increments of inches or the fence will buy it.

Next question: when are the non-blue makers gonna standardize those swivelling seats. My neck is sore! I know a lot has been posted here over the years regarding the 'backwardness' designs of tractors - how everything needs to be out front. Some gizmos will always need to be PUSHED and others will always work bet PULLED is my take. I think it will be a long wait for an afordable bi-directional compact tractor - as in that big NH machine folks are talking about - a tractor that has no front nor back ... I'm likin that idea more. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DAP · Apr 28, 2004

I too made this point in the original post. Unfortunately, many, not all, but many folks who sell this type of equipment are not knowledgeable enough to pass this information along to prospective buyers at the point of sale disucssions.

art · Apr 28, 2004

As a sales person I always talk of pro's and cons of all three brand compacts we sell. To add a little more fun with this thread for the die hard BIG farmers here all major brands either have introduced or will be introducing new transmissions that are a called IVT,CVT or some other designation but still a hydro varient. The difference from the old IH's that were built in the sixties and seventies is they have more ranges then the old IH design to better utilize the engines power. The flexibility of speed do to conditions or crops is the advantage, the same as the mowing, tilling or loader work. Like what you want, it's tough to beat progress unless you think it's the other way!

_RaT_ · Apr 28, 2004

Oh Art, your going to make some folks mad talking like that! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rowski · Apr 28, 2004

( For my tasks, even 1st gear was not slow enough in practice - the clutch was needed for transition speeds. Period.
)

Have you ever seen someone very good at using a power shuttle? Or for that matter had proper instruction on how to use one? Seem like you haven't. Last I new there was netrual postion on the shuttle lever. Ever think of putting the shuttle in netural?

JerryG · Apr 28, 2004

the clutch was needed for transition speeds. Period. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

_RaT_ · Apr 28, 2004

Derek, that neutral position to me is what makes a shuttle work so well. When backing up, I generally coast, in neutral, come almost to a stop and put the shuttle in forward. The reverse is true as well. Mark