Tractor losing power after loader attached

[borisvonf]

Hello brain trust
I borrowed my dads Jd 5210 with loader to work on my farm.
For some time I had noticed lack of power such as not being able to go uphill in C 1 and not able to get to full speed on flat ground in highway gear C3. Issue got progressively worse over last 2 weeks.
Initially, my thought was air or fuel issue.

Cleaned air filter and changed fuel filter. Spend 1/2 a day priming fuel system, checking flow to all fuel components and venting air from all lines but would lose power and shut down still.

Finally decided to remove loader and take to dealer on trailer for suspected injector pump issue.
Once loader removed, machine ran like a champ. Good power. Maintained rpm. Ran for an hour doing misc farm work.

Reconnected loader and lost power again but able to get back into shop and parked.

Now my thought is loader hydros.

Loader still works.

Loader valve has 2 lines coming in then splits to 2 valves lift and curl functions and has float on lift.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[buickanddeere]

Is the open Center tractor hydraulics dead heading against something that is blocking the normal open circuit flow path. Is there a loader valve in "closed Center mode".
The hydraulic oil is probably getting hot ?
If that 11.4 gpm pump is dead heading against a 2855psi relief valve there will be approx 23HP of load added to that 55HP engine .

 

[ovrszd]

Maybe the FEL hydraulic connections are reversed if possible? Definitely a flow blockage somewhere.

My neighbor installed his 3pt backhoe on his JD4440. Came to me complaining of power loss?? I went to investigate. No squealing or whining coming from the system which uses it's own PTO pump...... Hmmmmmm...... Took about 30 minutes of tedious investigation...... Found it. He had the 3pt lever in the raised position. The backhoe hitch system prevents the 3pt arms from lifting. Odd that the tractor displayed no odd noises. Just didn't have as much power.

 

[SPYDERLK]

There is some compact point dissipating a lot of power.
,,,,,,, With tractor idling @ ~1500 feel for rapid heating in some part of hyd circuit.

 

[borisvonf]

Will take pictures of loader valves today.
Have internet in town but tractor is at farm.
Sorry for delays.
Appreciate help and ideas.

 

[JD5210]

Here is a manual for the 5210, what loader do you have? Have you ever had the loader on the tractor before and working?

I would try and see, if the loader arms or the bucket is the issue. Disconnect the bucket and leave disconnected and see what happens. If this makes a difference put the loader arms on the bucket SCV and see what happens.

Try putting the 3PT level in the middle position, incase the 3PT is the issue. The hydraulics for the loader and 3PT for lack of a better term use the same hydraulic circuit. I have attached a picture of the hydraulic system that might help.

5210
http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMRE71736_19/
540 Loader
http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMW44993_19/

 

[borisvonf]

The machine has the 521 loader.
I ran the tractor yesterday and started up fine but again started losing power and unable to maintain rpms.
Disconnected the loader hydraulics and tractor ran fine.
Did note heat buildup at quick connects where hydraulic lines come into loader valves.
If it matters, the loader works fine and seems to be less load on engine when loader being moved up or down or curl without a load on it.
In these pictures the hydraulic lines to the loader valves were disconnected.
Again, I am very grateful for all the help.
I have never worked on hydraulics but it seems like a relief type valve in the loader controls are my problem but I may be way off base. Do I need to just take this in to repair shop or is there something I could clean out and get it functioning.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The machine has the 521 loader.
I ran the tractor yesterday and started up fine but again started losing power and unable to maintain rpms.
Disconnected the loader hydraulics and tractor ran fine.
Did note heat buildup at quick connects where hydraulic lines come into loader valves.
If it matters, the loader works fine and seems to be less load on engine when loader being moved up or down or curl without a load on it.
In these pictures the hydraulic lines to the loader valves were disconnected.
Again, I am very grateful for all the help.
I have never worked on hydraulics but it seems like a relief type valve in the loader controls are my problem but I may be way off base. Do I need to just take this in to repair shop or is there something I could clean out and get it functioning.

View attachment 480608View attachment 480609View attachment 480610View attachment 480611

The out port on the valve block appears to be plugged. The fluid has to flow back to the sump when not being used to control the loader - and the out port, if connected to the return line, would do this. You need to find the return line and tee the valve out into it. Do not continue running the tractor while this remains unresolved.

,,,,,Have you asked your dad about it?

 

[borisvonf]

When I disconnected the hydraulic lines to the loader, I connected the IN line to the OUT line and put the rubber caps over the exposed quick connects on the loader valve. In the second picture you can the IN and OUT lines connected to each other. I assumed that was the thing to do because when I disconnected the loader I lost 3 pt lift. Once I connected the IN line to the OUT line, 3 pt lift arms started working again. I think that is what you meant when you said the out was plugged.
Again I don't know much about hydros. I'm trying to learn and solve a problem.
I apologize if I'm not making sense.
Also, what does "open center" mean?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Open center lets fluid flow through the valve unimpeded when the valve levers are centered. ... From your explanation above Ill then assume the loader valve is not hooked up to pressure in the pics. -- When the loader is hooked up (blue IN, yellow OUT I assume) does the 3ph work?

 

[borisvonf]

Yes. 3 pt works fine when loader connected to IN and OUT lines.
Also 3 pt works fine when loader disconnected if in and out connected to each other.
I guess that means I have open center.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Yes, should be a special case of open center, properly termed "tandem center". ... That other port on the valve next to the yellow is plugged. It is probably a Power Beyond port. In normal hookups both ports are used. The out is hooked to an unvalved [open] line straight back to the sump. The PB is hooked to a line leading to whatever loads are downstream. -- That said, I am confused at what is happening with the loader valve in and out of the circuit. I have heard JD uses a closed center setup, at least on some of its tractors. Im surprised no one familiar with JD hydraulics has responded.

,,,,,I think you should probably post on the JD forum so youll have a better chance of reaching JD people.

 

[ovrszd]

And amidst all the confusion, you have indicated this problem progressively got worse? That indicates to me that in the past the tractor has performed as it should??

Incorrectly plumbed or hooked up wrong would cause an immediate problem and deterioration.

Not sure which type of condition we are chasing?? Can you clarify if the tractor/FEL has ever worked properly?

 

[borisvonf]

Tractor and loader have worked fine according to my dad. Last fall when we had the flooding in South Carolina I had to drive down to dads place and move his equipment to high ground. I definitely noted lack of power as I couldn't use the highest gear when driving it down the highway. But then it didn't lose power, just could not get the Rpms up in high gear.
Dad mostly uses the loader with pallet forks on flat ground moving tree limbs and some equipment and doesn't work it very hard.
I brought his tractor up to move free recycled Asphault around my drive way on my hilly farm so I have been working it harder. I have had it on my farm for a month and running reasonably well. Just in the last week would it start dropping rpms when I got it up to pto speeds.
Only thing on back was cyclone spreader with 100lbs fertilizer and not a heavy load.
On Sunday I was able to pick up a hay rake and load on my trailer with the forks.
Once I ran the tractor for a while with no loads it started losing power and when I unplugged/bypassed loader valve the machine ran well and kept up rpm.
I just hate screwing up equipment. I have been greasing religiously, checking fluids, and generally treating it better than my own machine.
I don't even know what question I am asking.
Again thanks for thoughts.

 

[jb1390]

When I had my JD300 Industrial, I replaced the loader valve. The setup looked very similar to what you have here, 2 levers and associated lines, an in and out port, and a Power Beyond Port. That machine had a closed center pump, so the PB port had to be plugged for the system to work. The valve I bought was set up for open-center, but able to be converted for closed center. I had to replace the provided power beyond plug with an extended plug that had an O-ring, to seal off oil. The open center plug that was provided with the valve directly connected the PB fluid to the outlet port. I'd bet that you have a closed center plug installed. Take out the plug labelled power-beyond, and take a picture of it. If it has an o-ring in a groove that extends into the valve, that is your problem. If that is the case, you'd just need to get a new plug for open center, or cut off the end that extends into the valve.

 

[JD5210]

Do you have it connected to power beyond or to the end part after the SCV(s) in the back of the tractor by the right rear wheel? If it is the last that is how my neighbor has it and it works. Part after SCV(s) two hoses to the open center control valve/.controls and four hoses to his 541 loader. If this has never worked before, make sure you valve is open center and not close center. The 5210 is an open center (see tractordata URL). Some valves have a plug to change them from open to closed center or closed to open to center. If you do not know the difference between open/closed or want to learn more about hydraulics, here is a great set of videos to watch.

I suggest checking the valve to insure its open center. Is there a name on the control valve/controls?

If a couple pictures from my neighbors tractor (it does have a different control valve/controls) might help let me know.

TractorData.com John Deere 521 tractor information

Hydraulics Math - YouTube

 

[buickanddeere]

I suspect it's possible the hydraulics were never plumbed correct from the dealership?

 

[borisvonf]

Just wanted to update the situation. The tractor kept acting up and finally took it in to a shade tree tractor mechanic.
What he found was not hydraulic related at all. It was a fuel issue.
The manual priming pump was leaking air through the diaphragm and causing loss of power.
He installed an electric priming pump and removed the manual one. He told me this is the 40 ish one he has replied in a John Deere 5000 series.
I just wanted to give an update and thank everyone for their thoughtful responses.
I will be running the tractor hard next week so will give more updates
Thanks again.
I haven't picked it back up yet but wanted to show my thanks

 

[ovrszd]

This is why we should all hold the reins on quick judgements about problems. We only know the problem as described by someone we don't know that might view it differently than us. This is a classic. Very glad you figured out the problem and hopefully the tractor is now productive again.

 

[RLstangs]

This is a link to your loader valve. If the tractor has open center hydraulics, gear pumps on the side of the engine, you need to hook the valve up per the directions in this link. It is on the last page.
http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/valves/RD5000Manual.pdf