Toyota vs. Ford

[EddieWalker]

I have no experience or knowledge of the auto makers management, but I do have some knowledge of air and groung freight. Some of the things that I've always been amazed at was the degree some managers are protected regardless of there ability to do there job. We had a senior vice president retire that had done a very poor job. He had no knowledge of what the employees actually did, so he came up with these things that took extra time, but increased the workload. As a result, the customer wasn't being serviced and we lost money. Then after a year or two, he gave up and tried something different. His wife was the daughter of a major stockholder and it was common knowldege that his position was safe because of that connection. They cut his area down after each of his disasters to the point of having the same title and pay, but only managing a dozen barns instead of a dozen states. We always joked it was because he couldn't hurt the company as badly with less barns. hahaha

When he retired, the company promoted one of his managers. He was the only one to have never passed an audit and was under investigation for taking kickbacks for outsourcing deliveries and ten times the rate of paying the drivers to do so. Outsourced work didn't come out of the barns budget, so a manager could save money by paying another courier to deliver the package at $30 each instead of an employee who can do ten to 15 packages an hour at $20 an hour. About a month after his promotion, he was suspended for two months for this. Three other supervisors that worked for him were fired.

It turned out that he was very good friends with one of the company presidents. There were four or five presidents of the company. I was a Union Steward, so I was privy to allot of this information.

He decided to cut payroll and institute a 25% increase in deliveries to the drivers without any regard to how it would get done. It didn't. Packages sat around the barn for weeks and sometimes months. We would put the date on a package and see how long it sat there. One time we named a package Bob and drew a little face on it with a tie to look like a manger. Bob was there for months. We lost millions of dollars over that and Dell Computer and at least a dozen other national accounts.

He recieved a raise and additional area. When I quite, he was in charge of the entire Western States. I think it was 7 or 8 states. They were promoting him for losing money and accounts.

I wonder if other companies have this going on too. A person is in charge because of his relationships, or friendships with those already there. How many managers are kept on because of the protection of those more powerful who wont admit to the reality of those mistakes and bad decissions.

There is no accountability for incompatence. Nothing happens to them if they screw up, lose millions of dollars in revenue or future earnings. Just look at some of the cars Detroit puts out. It's not the Union workers who come up with some of those pieces of junk. It's the company and there stupidity that they can sell it to us.

One of the things that I've always admired about Nissan was how they turned themselves around. I guess it was about 15 years ago that Nissan was for sale, but nobody wanted it. From what I read, they were trying to sell the company cheap just to cut there losses, but not one single offer. Then a new CEO took over. He realized that Nissan was putting out too many models of cars in the same market. They were competeing against themselves, AND the other car builders. He picked the best model of each market and cancled the others. One luxery car, one family car, one compact and so forth. Then he had his engineers focus on makeing those cars the best they could.

Now Nissan is one of the top auto makers in the world with a very solid reputaion. Why does Ford and GM make so may models? Why not build fewer models and build them better? Fewer models woudl be cheaper and easier to build and support. It worked for Nissan.

Eddie

 

[Volfandt]

You stated you had a Vega, Chevette ect. How long ago was that, 30 years? Your perception of small american cars started 30 years ago and now, to you, its so ingrained that you consider it fact. Then to help make your point, you throw in praise for a Corolla with only 80000, and the RAV4 with only 20000 miles on it. Is 20000 or even 80000 miles even enough to draw a conclusion? No. but you throw it in there anyway.

So are you calling me an old phart?

Actually, those sub-compact cars (& Tbird) I mentioned do cover a time span of over 30 years.

The Vega was a 1977 (lost #1 cylinder at approx 50k miles)
The Chevette was a 1979 (@45K miles, bottom pulley came off which made it jump time which caused extensive topend damage, used oil afterwards)
The J2000 was 1984 (less than 36k miles, defective cooling fan sender design caused overheating twice which required a new head both times, under warranty thank goodness.)
The Thunderbird was 1988 and the famous blown headgasket was the 1st to happen at around 40K. Then teh AC compressor failed and the starter followed suit) I really liked the car though but the Mrs didn't. She thought it was too big.
The Saturn was a 1992. It lost a timing chain at 60K but thankfully no other damage was done. It started using oil big tiome after that. We gave it to my daughter in 1996 and she kept it until 2001 (and put 110k on it) when we traded it for a Honda Civic that was manf. in Ohio. I made sure she kept track of the mileage so I could out in a qrt very 500 mles.

Other than the Saturn, I lost my butt on all those vehicles and they all stranded me at one time or another. I had enough!

I know it seems I'm knocking good ole American made cars and in reality I'm not, I'm knocking our poor attempt at competeing against the compact & sub compact cars made by others than the big 3.

In the same time frame of my wife's car's I owned 2 different Ranger pickups and 2 F150's and for the most part I was happy enough with them that I continue to buy Ford trucks today (but that may be changing too as now the venerable F150 is beginning to lag behind)

My 1985 Ranger was a very good little truck for me for over 100k miles but those noisey solid lifters in the 2.8 V6 drove me crazy. I'd personally adjust them every 15K miles and they'd remain quiet for about 5 k then start clacking. The truck ran great tho.

My 1984 F150 4x4 was a tank. The 302 V8 w/the C4 tranny was like the energizer bunny, only problem was the choke assmebly wouldn't work very well on the 2bbl carb when it was VERY cold but it had over 100k when I traded it also.

My 1988 Ranger 4x4 was one of my favorites. It had the nice and quiet 3.0 V6 and it not only ran better than the 85 but got better gas mileage too. I traded it with 120k on it for the truck I have now and it's a 98 F150.

The 98 F150 Off Road has 118k trouble free miles on it but like I said earlier it cost 2 to 2.5 times more than those sub compacts that gave me nothing but trouble so thats why I equated Fords ROI with quality, i.e. the higher the price range of a vehicle the better it's built.

As for my praise of the Corolla at only 80k miles, well all the other cars had MAJOR engine problems well before the 80k benchmark I'm using so thats a pretty good indicator for comparison.

Granted we haven't purchased An American branded sub compact since the turn of the century but that is primary due to our previous "hands on" experience with the pre 2000 offerings.

If in fact the Big 3 have caught up with the "imports" then I'm very glad for this. I do notice rateings but unfortunately the BIg 3's improvement isn't reflected in most. Good quality will definitely be reflected in the various pub's that track this as well as word of mouth. The Japanese were able to overcome a bad cheap image of their products and are now a major manufacturing force in the world as well being considered the benchmark for good quality.
American manf's can also do this but it ain't gonna happen with just outstanding marketing. We may be ohhh and awe'd by their great commercials but word of mouth ain't matching those entertaining 60 sec video clips.
Sometimes I think that our institutions of higher learning just don't get it in the real world as their primary product, the MBA's etc are the ones choosing marketing over manufacturing excellence.
( I really don't have anything against MBA's on a personal level. In my job I get out and about quite a bit and after I started to see the same MBA's in high level management positions in TOTALLY differing and types of companys, i.e from a trucking outfit to a warehouse to a manufacturer for example, I can't help but wonder if these individuals even know what it is their new company does for a living. I applaud their success at pursueing the American dream but it's obvious their companys products aren't benefiting from their success......)
It seems there are less youngsters enrolling in Engineering programs and more taking Business administration. Thats fine I rekon except, we're loosing our manufacturing expertise at alarming rates and are totally dependant on the world now to provide for our needs.

This brings me back to one of my remarks where I've asked in several threads just what is better for us as consumers, to buy products made in factorys based in the USA or buy products with traditional American names that are produced in other countries?

 

[mjarrels]

Eddie,

Sounds like your managers are ready to lead home depot...

mark

 

[Bird]

I started to see the same MBA's in high level management positions in TOTALLY differing and types of companys

I think you and I may have something in common, even if we are in the minority. I don't have an MBA; just a BS, but in management courses I took over the years, they taught that a manager is a manager. If you can manage one kind of business, you can manage another. So, yep, it used to be that a person started at or near the bottom of a business, learned that business from the ground up, and moved up to management positions. If an employee had a question, he/she went to the boss for an answer. I'm afraid that's not the case in many companies anymore. And the same is true in government, and even law enforcement.

As a rookie lieutenant in 1970, I was pretty confident that I could correctly answer almost any question the sergeants and patrolment had, and if I didn't know the answer, I could tell them "I don't know, but I'll find out" and I could ask my boss and get an answer. But by the time I retired in 1989, after having been a captain the last 13 years, I knew that it would be ridiculous to ask a question of anyone who outranked me, because if I didn't know the answer all ready, they certainly would not know.

 

[RayH]

So are you calling me an old phart?

This brings me back to one of my remarks where I've asked in several threads just what is better for us as consumers, to buy products made in factorys based in the USA or buy products with traditional American names that are produced in other countries?

I guess no older than I. My first car was a 73 Vega. What a POS that car was.
My first NEW car was an 84 Ford Escort. I had it for ten years. It was a very reliable car. Looked and ran like new when I sold it with 130000 miles.

The question of consumer loyalty is a hard one.
Example: Jeep, a legendary american brand name, owned by a German company, assembled in Canada using mostly Japanese parts.
If it turns out to be a POS, who do you blame? The Germans who are running the show, the Canadians who put it together, the Japanese who made the components or the U.S who owns the name?
I had a Mazda pickup. Everything under the skin was Ford. Your Rangers probably had several Mitsubishi parts and a couple Peugeot parts under it.
Remember the Ford Fiesta and Aspire, joint manufacturing ventures between Kia and Ford.
Remember when German cars were the top of the quality food chain. The U.S. comsumer traded high priced quality for economy back in the 80s and decided to buy Japanese. The same thing will happen to the Japanese. Now that the prices of Toyota and Hondas are going through the roof, the U.S. consumer will eventually go away from them for something cheaper, in steps Kia and Hyundia.
The U.S. had been the only way to go as far as full sized trucks are concerned but if I were shopping for one right now, I would be negligent if I didnt at least look at the Tundra and Titan.
Sadly, geographic loyalty is a thing of the past.

 

[Kubotasrking]

So what do you think the difference between the Toyota plant in Georgetown KY and the Ford plant in Dearborn is? Do you think the union workers and lower/middle management in KY are just better than the ones in MI?

I think the main difference is that there isn't an entrenched culture in the new plants Toyota has built. They started up the plants and created the culture they wanted as an organization. In Dearborn, changing the culture of 5K employees in a plant would be extraordinarily difficult. Both workers and managers lack the energy and commitment to strive for never-before-seen heights. They would rather blame eachother for the woes of the company.

Another point to consider is unionized labor. You asked about union workers in Toyota vs. those in Ford. It is my understanding the people who work for Toyota do so without a union. I'm sure many would argue (I personally don't care either way...) that is one of the huge differences in quality and productivity.

 

[cp1969]

I think you and I may have something in common, even if we are in the minority. I don't have an MBA; just a BS, but in management courses I took over the years, they taught that a manager is a manager. If you can manage one kind of business, you can manage another. So, yep, it used to be that a person started at or near the bottom of a business, learned that business from the ground up, and moved up to management positions. If an employee had a question, he/she went to the boss for an answer. I'm afraid that's not the case in many companies anymore. And the same is true in government, and even law enforcement.

That is the very heart of the matter, where it all went south: When we decided that the people in charge did not have to know or understand anything about the work their people are doing. All you need as a manager, is to be a "people person."

There is so much wrong with that that I don't know where to start.

First, it creates a situation where the worker can pull the wool over the boss's eyes. Second, it dumps the responsibility for answering questions into the lap of co-workers. If they don't know, you are sunk.

Second, it creates a short cut to the top of the corporate ladder because you never have to learn anything about the business. Why toil proving your competence, THEN your ability to lead others, when you can just jump to the top because you're a "people person" with an MBA?

This cannot work. It did not use to be this way. It will surely correct itself but by then who knows how sad of a state American business will be in.

I will be flabbergasted if anyone tells me the Japanese companies management structure is anything like this.

 

[_RaT_]

That is the very heart of the matter, where it all went south: When we decided that the people in charge did not have to know or understand anything about the work their people are doing. All you need as a manager, is to be a "people person."

There is so much wrong with that that I don't know where to start.

First, it creates a situation where the worker can pull the wool over the boss's eyes. Second, it dumps the responsibility for answering questions into the lap of co-workers. If they don't know, you are sunk.

Second, it creates a short cut to the top of the corporate ladder because you never have to learn anything about the business. Why toil proving your competence, THEN your ability to lead others, when you can just jump to the top because you're a "people person" with an MBA?

This cannot work. It did not use to be this way. It will surely correct itself but by then who knows how sad of a state American business will be in.

I will be flabbergasted if anyone tells me the Japanese companies management structure is anything like this.

Interesting comment Charles.

 

[Donnyj]

Toyota has there share of quality issues as well. I find it very interesting how the media keeps these issues as quiet as can be. Let it be a domestic auto maker and it is all over the news.

Toyota Agrees to Sludge Settlement for Consumers

Consumer complaints about Toyota Engine Problems


Consumer Complaints about Toyota Airbags


Is Toyota's Quality Slipping?


Facing Massive Recalls, Toyota Executives Promise to Do Better


Japanese Probe Recall Delay at Toyota


Toyota recalls another 553,000 Tundra and Sequoia models - Autoblog

 

[HomeBrew2]

... When we decided that the people in charge did not have to know or understand anything about the work their people are doing. All you need as a manager, is to be a "people person." ...

In some circles, THAT is known a "east-coast management".

 

[Bob_Young]

You all have valid points. Every one of the issues you describe detracts materially from the competitiveness of American companies and products. Still, you're not seeing the forest for the trees....nor could I when my day-to-day work was as a manufacturing engineer.

Having been away from manufacturing for about 5 years now has given me a different perspective. The common denominator to each item mentioned and the main issue that differentiates us from the Japanese is RESPECT in all its several manifestations:
1)management for workers
2)workers for management
3)management and workers for the process they are a part of
4)management and workers for the product they produce
5)management for the skills & technology required
6)management and workers for the sacrifices that others have made
7)management and workers for the work itself
8)management and workers for basic honesty and moral behaviour
9)management and workers for the customer
We lack it; they have it.

Every one of the glaring industry shortcomings you all have mentioned can be traced to a lack of respect in one form or the other.

Respect is ingrained in the Japanese from an early age....it's a vital part of their culture and a default attitude among the majority of the people. Here it's laughed at or regarded as a sort of mental defect. As a result, every point of interface which requires respect to work smoothly becomes instead a point of conflict and prone to breakdown. The 'Why' behind this is a subject for another discussion...might have something to do with who's raising the kids these days.

It's surprising, really, that U.S. industry does as well as it does with this albatross hung around its neck.
Bob

 

[Bird]

Bob, it's interesting that you mention the "respect" issue. I thought about posting a response in this thread earlier, but just couldn't remember enough details. I never actually saw or read the books, but in one of the management courses I took in college, a book was mentioned that was written by an authoritative American author who went to Japan to study their management techniques. His book supposedly contained the same conclusions that you have posted; that respect was at the core of their success. He said managers didn't order workers around; i.e., instead of telling someone to sweep the floor, a manager would simply say the floor needed sweeping, and someone would hop to it.

Sounds good and makes sense, right? But then later another author wrote a book agreeing with what was done and said, but concluding that it was for a different reason; FEAR instead of respect. As I believe has been mentioned, in Japan workers start with a company and stay their entire working life. If a worker should be fired in America, he'll go to another company, but if a worker should be fired in Japan, he's out of luck; no one else will hire him, so his entire livlihood depends on keeping the boss happy.

Now of course this was many years ago, so I know that much has changed since then, and I don't know for sure which of the authors was right even back then.

 

[riptides]

You all have valid points. ....

... The common denominator to each item mentioned and the main issue that differentiates us from the Japanese is RESPECT ....

Interesting point, but I'd go against it.

My word is EXECUTION. American business, medical, engineering schools and higher learning in general is still amongst the most sought after educational experience in the world. Unfortunately, the risk models and general company/governmental bureaucracy stagnate or bury the change direction needed for success. Those that adapt, thrive.

-Mike Z.

 

[rox]

I write from a different perspective. I happen to think that American companies are world class. You have no idea how good they are until you move away and have to deal with other non American companies. I swear in France the most used word is the word "no." Well actually it is two words, "Ahhh no" If you want any type of product that is half way out of norm "Ahhhh no" You can never call and jsut order something, sales territiories dictate everything. No way to call and get a price on a widget. Must have sales rep in your area quote you and they typically get the job done in about 5 to 6 days. Eventually you get worn down to their time line. What i do is shop over the internet, i get answers much faster, I get better service and I have various ways to reduce my shipping costs to France. I bought beautiful vinyl signs from a manufacturer in Canada, our printer is in Ohio, found them over the internet. Through TBN I found a good prunning saw, Silky saws, called it was shipped the next day. You jsut cna't get that kind of service in France. There are many small businesses but they carry no stock, everything has to be ordered. Even my local computer store, wanted a wireless DSL modem/router. Had none in stock they had to order. I was in on Saturday and they did have the item on Monday and installed it on Monday so actually their service is great that way. I do like the fact that I jsut leave my laptop with them no IDing the computer with a work order number or anything. Much les complicated. These guys are good and I always bring them olive oil, I know 3 bottles since there are 3 owners. I paid for the part but they installed it at no charge as they did appreciate the olive oil. With the exception of this computer shop I would gladly deal only with American companies. Thee is no "at will" employment in France, thus you get to hear "ahhhh no" a lot!

 

[_RaT_]

I write from a different perspective. I happen to think that American companies are world class. You have no idea how good they are until you move away and have to deal with other non American companies. I swear in France the most used word is the word "no." Well actually it is two words, "Ahhh no" If you want any type of product that is half way out of norm "Ahhhh no" You can never call and jsut order something, sales territiories dictate everything. No way to call and get a price on a widget. Must have sales rep in your area quote you and they typically get the job done in about 5 to 6 days. Eventually you get worn down to their time line. What i do is shop over the internet, i get answers much faster, I get better service and I have various ways to reduce my shipping costs to France. I bought beautiful vinyl signs from a manufacturer in Canada, our printer is in Ohio, found them over the internet. Through TBN I found a good prunning saw, Silky saws, called it was shipped the next day. You jsut cna't get that kind of service in France. There are many small businesses but they carry no stock, everything has to be ordered. Even my local computer store, wanted a wireless DSL modem/router. Had none in stock they had to order. I was in on Saturday and they did have the item on Monday and installed it on Monday so actually their service is great that way. I do like the fact that I jsut leave my laptop with them no IDing the computer with a work order number or anything. Much les complicated. These guys are good and I always bring them olive oil, I know 3 bottles since there are 3 owners. I paid for the part but they installed it at no charge as they did appreciate the olive oil. With the exception of this computer shop I would gladly deal only with American companies. Thee is no "at will" employment in France, thus you get to hear "ahhhh no" a lot!

Rox, thanks for that perspective. I have long known that about certain countries but since this is an "international" website (not sure if China is allowed to receive TBN) I refrain from comment. I understand your post well.

 

[Kubotasrking]

You all have valid points. Every one of the issues you describe detracts materially from the competitiveness of American companies and products. Still, you're not seeing the forest for the trees....nor could I when my day-to-day work was as a manufacturing engineer.

Wow, thanks for the lesson . I'm certain we could begin discussing cyclicality of business cycles and economies and maybe better understand that demand changes, and the larger the business the more lethargic the reaction time. Or, we could talk economic/political systems whereby a prime minister can dissolve congress and create a pseudo-monarchy. There is no NLRB, there is no litigation to excess, there is no ability for dissent. Advantage Japan!

We also could talk about the most productive workforce and most effective economic systemthat has ever existed. It allows for the most fluid wealth transfer the world has ever seen. We could mention that the reason that Toyota is successful is because of American wealth and innovation. We could talk about the fact that in 20 years, a labor shortage in the US will drive more manufacturers overseas, or increase automation exponentially...or both! I'm no engineer, nor am I a holder of any prestigious degree, but it is obvious to me that we simply are the greatest country on earth, and our automakers happen to be struggling through a much needed cultural change. The parochial days of "us vs. them" are over. I hope that my employer learns from Ford's inevitable changes and forces us to change how we do our business too. That way, I'll get to work for my company for 40 years .

 

[mjarrels]

Edward Deming

mark

 

[hazmat]

...most effective economic systemthat has ever existed. It allows for the most fluid wealth transfer the world has ever seen. ....

This is one of the few remaining (and likely the largest) advantages that America still has in the global economy. But what happens when all our wealth has been distributed around the world...

There is book out there called "The world is flat" by Thomas Friedman - it details the rise of the global economy.

 

[cp1969]

Wow, thanks for the lesson . I'm certain we could begin discussing cyclicality of business cycles and economies and maybe better understand that demand changes, and the larger the business the more lethargic the reaction time. Or, we could talk economic/political systems whereby a prime minister can dissolve congress and create a pseudo-monarchy. There is no NLRB, there is no litigation to excess, there is no ability for dissent. Advantage Japan!

We also could talk about the most productive workforce and most effective economic systemthat has ever existed. It allows for the most fluid wealth transfer the world has ever seen. We could mention that the reason that Toyota is successful is because of American wealth and innovation. We could talk about the fact that in 20 years, a labor shortage in the US will drive more manufacturers overseas, or increase automation exponentially...or both! I'm no engineer, nor am I a holder of any prestigious degree, but it is obvious to me that we simply are the greatest country on earth, and our automakers happen to be struggling through a much needed cultural change. The parochial days of "us vs. them" are over. I hope that my employer learns from Ford's inevitable changes and forces us to change how we do our business too. That way, I'll get to work for my company for 40 years .

Degree or not, you certainly have remarkable insight and an eloquent way of expressing it.

Many a holder of a prestigious degree (myself included) cannot reason or write as well.

 

[Kubotasrking]

Degree or not, you certainly have remarkable insight and an eloquent way of expressing it.

Many a holder of a prestigious degree (myself included) cannot reason or write as well.

Thanks, I appreciate your compliment... I have a lot of respect for those who have completed college, and hope to join the ranks prior to age 50.

BTW, I love your quote...funny stuff.