Tired Ford 3000 engine......

   / Tired Ford 3000 engine......
  • Thread Starter
#101  
Well, the "old" gal is back home. I suppose 'old' isn't an accurate descrption any more. The frame and other mis. stuff is original, but the engine/tranny are rebuilds.

The trip back was uneventfull. I just had to learn how to shift a SOS. I'm use to the JD "Powershifts"...same difference I would thing. They didn't finish everything 100%. The tach was unhooked, so I didn't know how fast the RPM's were. I think I had it at the "stops". It did take some time getting back. About the same time when we towed her over, maybe less/maybe more... I didn't catch the time.

They ran it 4 hours originally, then another 3 today. And the trip was at least 3 hours. Not much time, but better then nothing.

I noticed that the thing shifts quite smoothlly in the lower gears... you can't tell it changing speed. Mid range, there is a slight sence of change and then in the high range (9/10) you can tell for sure. I usually came up to a stop light, throttled down in 10th trying to just creep w/out stopping. When green came, I just throttled it up from 10th gear. Some black smoke came out. I was a little jerky at first....was afraid I'd snap the drive chain (GASP).

I can tell that the engine is very different then the original (or what I was used to hearing over the years when I rode it when it was owned by the last owner). When the PTO was engaged, there was an audible sound change in the engine. The "lugging" down when it first turns on. I didn't sence any of this. I had to look at the PTO just to see it turning. Engine didn't change RPM/sound. Same with the gear switching. The low gears always changed the engine RPM, but not any more.

Chatting w/ the mechanic who did the tranny, they personally beleived that there wasn't much differnce between teh 4600 to the 4630. Or even a 4100. The used a Massy Fergason as an exmaple...two models... one was rated at like 48 HP vs one rated at 38HP. The engines were the same they said and sometimes, the 38 could reach 48. Just minor stuff. I understand that sometimes two engines w/ the same displacment can be rated two different powers. It's just a matter of the injection system, timing, etc.

But it brings up a question.... does it mean that if my old engine (what ever the displacment maybe)... can be "uppped" to the next HP rating of the SAME displacment? Can it be done by just swapping out the injectors, pump and timing it? Assuming the compression is the same..... I'll have to get the engine casing number to see if it is a 3000 or a 4000.

Nice to have it home and running. Now crunch, crunch time starts. A few bearings have to be replaced on the rollers/belts still....then install the belts...AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

(And I still have two semi's being fixed- waiting on one part.....helped a buddy replace a semi refigeration unit the other day- so nothing was done on them. Yes, that big thing on the semi trailers.... his went out- trailer being used as stationary road side fruit stand cooler).
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #102  
Kaliburz said:
Chatting w/ the mechanic who did the tranny, they personally beleived that there wasn't much differnce between teh 4600 to the 4630. Or even a 4100. The used a Massy Fergason as an exmaple...two models... one was rated at like 48 HP vs one rated at 38HP. The engines were the same they said and sometimes, the 38 could reach 48. Just minor stuff. I understand that sometimes two engines w/ the same displacment can be rated two different powers. It's just a matter of the injection system, timing, etc.


I'm vaguely familiar with Massey Ferguson (Perkins diesels) and John Deere, in regards to different HP ratings on essentially the same engine(s).

Massey Ferguson started using the AD152-3 (3-cyl) back in the mid 1950's and continued using it for another 50 years. It started off rated at 35 HP. Later on, it came with a factory rating of 38. That's what was O.E.M. in the ledgendary MF 135. Further on down the line, that same engine came in several other models, rated at 43, 47, and as high as 52 HP. (And with the addition of a turbo, even higher HP ratings) From all indications (and a little "tuning" on a Perkins 152 of my own) those increases in power were mostly achieved with fuel screw and RPM settings.

So the story goes, Perkins was limited by import/export regulations in the early years of production. There was a HP "break point" of 39.99 and lower OR 40 and above that would determine export tarrifs on their engines. (Got this from a former Massey employee from merry ol' England) Perkins "de-rated" and/or de-tuned some of their engine to slightly below the 40 HP point to beat that tarrif.

On my MF 150, and it's 1971 version of the Perkins AD152-3, I've done a bit of tuning (Turned up fuel screw/set RPM stop for 250 more RPM at max throttle setting) to go from stock HP of 38, to where it now dyno's at 46.something. It uses MAYBE a few ounces more fuel per hour under heavy load, but handle a load MUCH better. I've ran it that way for almost 25 years with no ill effects. (No clue as to changes in torque numbers/level. The tractor handles a load at rated PTO RPM's MUCH better also.)

Deere offered a few tractors over the years that had "de-rated" engines in one model and full power output from the same engine in a "bigger" model. In the particular cases I know of, lower powered models had different transmission options where the higher powered model had only one. (I'm guessing some of the options on the lower powered models weren't up to the output of the "big motor".

In all likelyhood, Ford (New Holland) probably did essentially the same thing with various HP ratings on same engine(s).
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #103  
Sometimes you get a basic block out of which 2 similar CID engines are built. Depending on what the manufacturer does.. one engine may actually be detuned.. etc.

I'd imagine injectors/fuel and timing are changed.. perhaps rpm and gov settings.

Might also be oiling issues with the pistons, turbocharging for breathing, and many times there are crank changes for the extra ponies.

Soundguy

Kaliburz said:
Well, the "old" gal is back home. I suppose 'old' isn't an accurate descrption any more. The frame and other mis. stuff is original, but the engine/tranny are rebuilds.

The trip back was uneventfull. I just had to learn how to shift a SOS. I'm use to the JD "Powershifts"...same difference I would thing. They didn't finish everything 100%. The tach was unhooked, so I didn't know how fast the RPM's were. I think I had it at the "stops". It did take some time getting back. About the same time when we towed her over, maybe less/maybe more... I didn't catch the time.

They ran it 4 hours originally, then another 3 today. And the trip was at least 3 hours. Not much time, but better then nothing.

I noticed that the thing shifts quite smoothlly in the lower gears... you can't tell it changing speed. Mid range, there is a slight sence of change and then in the high range (9/10) you can tell for sure. I usually came up to a stop light, throttled down in 10th trying to just creep w/out stopping. When green came, I just throttled it up from 10th gear. Some black smoke came out. I was a little jerky at first....was afraid I'd snap the drive chain (GASP).

I can tell that the engine is very different then the original (or what I was used to hearing over the years when I rode it when it was owned by the last owner). When the PTO was engaged, there was an audible sound change in the engine. The "lugging" down when it first turns on. I didn't sence any of this. I had to look at the PTO just to see it turning. Engine didn't change RPM/sound. Same with the gear switching. The low gears always changed the engine RPM, but not any more.

Chatting w/ the mechanic who did the tranny, they personally beleived that there wasn't much differnce between teh 4600 to the 4630. Or even a 4100. The used a Massy Fergason as an exmaple...two models... one was rated at like 48 HP vs one rated at 38HP. The engines were the same they said and sometimes, the 38 could reach 48. Just minor stuff. I understand that sometimes two engines w/ the same displacment can be rated two different powers. It's just a matter of the injection system, timing, etc.

But it brings up a question.... does it mean that if my old engine (what ever the displacment maybe)... can be "uppped" to the next HP rating of the SAME displacment? Can it be done by just swapping out the injectors, pump and timing it? Assuming the compression is the same..... I'll have to get the engine casing number to see if it is a 3000 or a 4000.

Nice to have it home and running. Now crunch, crunch time starts. A few bearings have to be replaced on the rollers/belts still....then install the belts...AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

(And I still have two semi's being fixed- waiting on one part.....helped a buddy replace a semi refigeration unit the other day- so nothing was done on them. Yes, that big thing on the semi trailers.... his went out- trailer being used as stationary road side fruit stand cooler).
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine......
  • Thread Starter
#104  
I knew that Deere had several engines that were the same CID but different ratings.

Looking online, the Fords/Ford-New Hollands: (all should be 3 cylinder diesels, if I read right). Info is from TractorData.com.

4000 a 192CID (46 PTO HP)
4030 a 179CID (51PTO)
4100 a 183CID (45 PTO)
4110 a 201CID (48 PTO)
4130 a 201CID (55)
4600 a 201CID (52 PTO)
4610 a 201CID (52)
4630 a 201CID (55)

I'm sure if I would have looked "harder", I could have found a 201CID engine that was turbo charged. So instead of 60HP engine, it 'could' be in the 65-70 HP range. But I figure 55 at the PTO is enough.....

OH, the repair shop I went to is an "authorized" Perkins Diesel dealer too....
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #105  
Kaliburz said:
I knew that Deere had several engines that were the same CID but different ratings.

Looking online, the Fords/Ford-New Hollands: (all should be 3 cylinder diesels, if I read right). Info is from TractorData.com.

4000 a 192CID (46 PTO HP)
4030 a 179CID (51PTO)
4100 a 183CID (45 PTO)
4110 a 201CID (48 PTO)
4130 a 201CID (55)
4600 a 201CID (52 PTO)
4610 a 201CID (52)
4630 a 201CID (55)

I'm sure if I would have looked "harder", I could have found a 201CID engine that was turbo charged. So instead of 60HP engine, it 'could' be in the 65-70 HP range. But I figure 55 at the PTO is enough.....

OH, the repair shop I went to is an "authorized" Perkins Diesel dealer too....

Once upon a time, Perkins was a "stand-alone" company. Then Massey Ferguson bought them. Now Caterpillar owns Perkins, with AGCO (Massey's parent company) building CAT's "Challenger" line of wheeled AG tractors and compacts.

PErkins had to update to stay in the market, but their older diesels were as simple as simple gets. That AD152-3 is the cheapest engine on earth to rebuild, seems to last as long, if not longer than any small diesel I know of, and is the most fuel efficient diesel I've ever had my hands on.

Biggest issue with a diesel when you go wringing ever horse out of one it has to offer is dealing with the excess heat. Like my dad used to tell me when I tried jacking up the horses on a tractor. "If you need more power, go get yourself a bigger tractor". He said that to me as I was installing an M&W turbo kit on my short-lived 5000 Ford. (Went from 67 to 100 HP, and nuked a piston while plowing 2 years later)
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine......
  • Thread Starter
#106  
Speaking of Perkins.....

look at this on Surplus Center.com

Surplus Center Item Detail

* Perkins engine family 3PKXL04.2AR1
* Perkins type 1996/2004
* Engine # AR70419
* 86 Hp @ 2,400 RPM Power Ouput intermittent
* 2,400 RPM rated speed
* 207.5 ft-lb @ 1,400 RPM peak torque

They only want $3,595.00

If my machine was the "newer" 800 model, I could have retro fitted the engine. The 800 used a Dutze Allis (spelling) air cooled engine. Would have taken some time to add a rad and mount the hydro pumps (it's a pure hydro model- engine connected to the pumps), but much cheaper.
 
Last edited:
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine......
  • Thread Starter
#107  
Well, she's picking grapes now.......

Wiring is still 'so-so' but it lights up for night work. Gonna "fix" it to my liking. Been busy..... I'm the fool who drives the semi to deliver.

A lot of the belt roller bearings were changed. Putting the belts were a pain.... especially when time was not a luxtury.

I'll try to get some pics...... of it going....
 
Last edited:
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #108  
Kaliburz said:
Well, she's picking grapes now.......

Wiring is still 'so-so' but it lights up for night work. Gonna "fix" it to my liking. Been busy..... I'm the fool who drives the semi to deliver.

A lot of the belt roller bearings were changed. Putting the belts were a pain.... especially when time was not a luxtury.

I'll try to get some pics...... of it going....


HooRAY!!!! Any time I've every got so involved in a project like yours, there was this tendency to hold my breath until it actually got back up and running. I always had this doubt in the back of my mind that it would work like I wanted. Now that it's running, you get to take a big deep breath, then dig in to all the rest of the "fixes".

Good job! It's been an interesting journey following along with your project. We've all learned a lot from it. Thanks for sharing. (Just don't expect us to share the COST! ;) )
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #109  
I echo FWJ's sentiments.

Soundguy
 
   / Tired Ford 3000 engine...... #110  
There is a company in India that builds a lisensed version of the 3.152, and still meets emissions, use an inline pump instead of CAV rotary type. There are some engines being imported and sold as power units, and I have seen them installed on older Masseys with bad engines, or one instance, a 3.152 gas engine was replaced, good price. They are the engines used in the TAFE tractors.

Chuck
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

Wilrich Field Cultivator (A50515)
Wilrich Field...
2008 CAT 287C (A50854)
2008 CAT 287C (A50854)
ALL TITLED ITEMS HAVE A $35 TITLE FEE!!! (A50775)
ALL TITLED ITEMS...
2025 LandHonor LHR-CIA200 200lb Cast Iron Anvil (A49461)
2025 LandHonor...
2018 FREIGHTLINER CASCADIA TANDEM AXLE SLEEPER (A51219)
2018 FREIGHTLINER...
IH Farmall 706 Tractor (A50514)
IH Farmall 706...
 
Top