Tilt on a BX

[sailnseagulls]

I have a BX23 and for some time now I've liked the idea of a top and tilt set up for my tractor. Problem is, from what I've read, that there is no ready made solution for the sub-compact tractors. Additionally, I've read all the pros of have the double piloted check valve, which also isn't available from CCM to fit. I've finally decided to try a cylinder from Surplus Center for the Top Link which looks like a good fit, minus the check valve.
The side link looks like more of a challenge as the solid side is approx. 15.5 inches pin to pin. The adjustable side is about 12.5" closed and 18" open. I have not found a cylinder small enough that, when welded with the mounting clevis at each end, would work. By my measurements, the cylinder would have to be about 9.25" closed before the brackets were welded on.
So now my question. Is it possible or practical to get two cylinders, approx. the size of the solid link (15.5") , and hook them up on each side? This would allow me to use the boxblade level when each are drawn up or tilt to either side. I have rear remotes (2) now and would also have to add a third, which is supposed to be stackable. What do you think? Thanks for your thoughts.
Larry

 

[8561]

Its possible. Henro has two tilt cylinders on his B2910. Look up his past threads, he has a very detailed thread with many, many photos showing his twin tilt link set-up.

 

[MadReferee]

Why not just replace the fixed link with the hydraulic link. That is what I did. At installation all you really have to do is make sure the lift arms are level when the tilt cylinder is half way extended. You will be surprised that how much tilt you will get with a 5" stroke cylinder. You really don't need a second cylinder, it's just overkill. BTW, I fabbed my own cylinder ends to match what was originally on the tractor.

 

[MadReferee]

One more thing. Mark, CCI, has posted that CCM will once again have cylinders with the check valves for sale in February 2007. It seems that they had issues with their supplier that have now been fixed and that a new orders have been placed with more reliable suppliers.

 

[Henro]

Sailnseagulls,

As 8561 mentioned I had similar concerns with my B2910 (which is a bit larger than the bx) and opted to go with two tilt cylinders. The main reason I needed to do this was so I did not lose 3PH lift. This is even a greater concern with the smaller BX.

If you can find that thread that 8561 referred to it will be worth a read I think.

You don't need check valves on the cylinders, you can use a prince valve with check valves built in and the net performance will be the same. You only lose the "burst hose protection" that check valves on the cylinders offer. More important to have this protection on a man lift than on a 3PH application.

I can tell you that it is nice having PO check valves, as they DO lock the cylinder in position.

It IS possible and very common to apply only one Tilt cylinder to a 3 PH. But if you want even tilt left and right, you have to use the adjustable lift rod, and extend it to equal the mid-stroke lenght of the hydraulic tilt cylinder that you choose. Net affect is that you lose lift on your 3PH. I don't think this this would be a satisfactory situation on a BX. I know on my BX I need every inch that I can get (and more, I drilled the clevis end of the lift rods so I could get a little more). (I have a BX2200 and the B2910)

As MadRef illustrated, a single tile cylinder works for a lot of people, expecially on larger tractors.

In my case, using dual tilt cylinders actually gave me a little more lift on my 3PH, if both cylinders are fully retracted. A second useful feature is if I either fully extend or fully retract the tilt cylinders, I don't have to guess and know for sure that the lower arms are level with respect to each other.

Sorry I don't have that thread that 8561 mentioned bookmarked or I would point you at it. Lost all my favorites when TBN transitioned to the new look.

Hope this helps...

 

[sailnseagulls]

Tim :

Thanks for the reply. I did read the post quite some time ago posted by Henro and it is what gave me the thought that I may be able to do the same thing to my tractor, even if it is smaller. It's the size of the tilt cylinder that is the problem.
Larry

 

[sailnseagulls]

Mad,

Thanks for posting your pics. I also believe that a 5" stroke would work perfectly well on one side. The problem I seem to run into is finding a cylinder small enough to fit the BX23 side link. I would need a cylinder in the range of 9" closed in order to fit the ends on (allowing for the same size clevis as the factory links). As I can't locate one this small that would do the job, my second option was to replace both sides, which when retracted would be the same as the fixed link and extended would create the tilt.
I saw that CCM is getting a new supplier but haven't seen any info on getting smaller sizes than already available. When I called a few months ago, I was told they were not available.
Larry

 

[sailnseagulls]

Henro,
I just typed a long reply and apparently wasn't fast enough...message lost !
Thank you for your reply. I did read your post but need to find it to refresh my memory.
My thoughts were since I don't have enough room for a cylinder big enough to extend it halfway to get tilt both ways, that I could create the same effect by getting two cylinders the same length as the fixed cylinder closed. I then could extend either to get tilt in that direction.
I hadn't thought about the lift as you mentioned which is important on the BX.
Would it be wise to get acylinders slightly shorter ( an inch?) than the factory link to get extra lift? I'm still learning the dynamics of the 3 point system.
Also, I'm probably too late to get the Prince valve as I have already installed the Kubota remote kit with two valves. I can easily add a third, but without check valves. Actually for the small amount of work I need to do, I'm not sure how much the lack of check valves will affect me. Of course, in the best of all worlds I would like to have them. So what do you think? Is it worth the trouble and will it accomplish what I'm trying to do?
Thanks, Larry

 

[JSUnlimited]

Maybe this post will help,

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/74761-tc24da-top-tilt.html

 

[Henro]

Would it be wise to get cylinders slightly shorter ( an inch?) than the factory link to get extra lift? I'm still learning the dynamics of the 3 point system...

...Actually for the small amount of work I need to do, I'm not sure how much the lack of check valves will affect me.

Thanks, Larry

I would suspect that if you compare the length of the fixed lift rod to the adjustable one, you will find that the mid point of the adjustable one is the same lenght as the fixed lift rod. If this is the case, then you could have two tilt cylinders that were the same lenght(when extended) as the adjustable lift rod at its mid-point length, and still have the same tilt capability as the original design offers. But in addition, you would have more lift available, as when both cylinders were retracted, they would be shorter than the original mechanical lift rods were. This is what I did on my B2910.

Now for a potential problem. You may not be able to find cylinders that have the stroke/lenght you need. I know it was a bit difficult to get what I wanted for my B2910, and the b2910 is a bit larger than the bx. It has been a while now though, and I just have this lasting impression, for what it is worth.

There is a time/benefit relationship with PO check valves I think. The shorter the job, the less important they are in my estimation. I mean, leakdown is a function of how tight your control valve is. If you happen to have one that lets little fluid leak through, when the valve is centered, then the issue is smaller than if you have a control valve that leaks more. Since you already have your control valves...and probably cannot find a short cylinder with PO check valves on it like the CCM ones have (those cylinders are too long for the BX I am almost certain) why not try what you have and see if for your needs some kind of check valve is needed on not.

I guess what I am trying to say is if you were doing 15 minutes of work EVERY day it would be one thing, as compared to doing 12 hours of work one day, and not using the T&T until a month later when you did 12 hours of work again in one day. Leak down during exteded use periods would require repeated readjustment, while leakdown during a 15 minute period might not be noticed at all.

Hope this makes some sense and helps a little...

 

[sailnseagulls]

MegaMe,
Thanks for the link to your post. I remember reading it some time ago and was impressed by the workmanship. My valves are not quite as handy strapped to the rops.
I looked at your pics and tried the Baum Hydraulics website but was unable to see the size (length) of your sidelink cylinder before the brackets were welded on. Do you know offhand?
I also saw that you did not use pilot operated check valves on the cylinders or valves. So, after you have had a chance to use the set-up...have you had any problems with leakdown or constant readjustments?
Thanks for taking the time to help.
Larry

 

[sailnseagulls]

Henro,
Thanks for going above and beyond in answering my questions. I read your last answer several times. You are right that the fixed link (15.5") is about the same as the midpoint of the adjustable link. But, to have a hydraulic cylinder extended be the same length as the adjustable midpoint it would need to be 15.5" extended. Giving a throw of say 4" and about 5" for the clevis ends means the cylinder can only be 6.5 " long and still fir the BX. Like you said, hard to find.
That is why I asked your thoughts on two cylinders closed the same lenght as the fixed link. I wouldn't be able to raise either side beyond the midpoint length of 15.5", but I could extend either to get the tilt. Does this make sense?
In reality, I probably don't have a real need for this setup...it's just a convience that I would really like to have. The actual use would only be an hour or two a few times a year to maintain my road. I agree I will just have to try it to see if leak down is an issue as there arn't any real choices.

Larry

 

[JSUnlimited]

sailnseagulls,

This link should give you what you are looking for. The cylinders I used are the Prince "wizard" line.
http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/cylinders/catalog/cylindersWizard.pdf

The side link is model# F200040 2" bore, 4" stroke. It was 9 1/2" closed length WITHOUT any ends welded on. I went with the 90 degree ports on my side link to eliminate stress on the lines.

Here is the Baum Hyd. page I think you need to reference, also if you call them I think the guy you need to talk to is Jerry (not sure though).
Baum Hydraulics Corporation

As far as any leakdowns, absolutely NO problems at all. I use this tractor for various applications as a side job and use the top and side link without any constant adjustments. Even when using the box blade with the rippers down going through tough shale, both links stay where I've set them all day.

 

[JSUnlimited]

sailnseagulls,

I just wondered if you had any luck with Baum Hydraulics?

 

[sailnseagulls]

Mega Me.

I printed all the info u so kindly sent the link for. I've been agonizing what exactly to order as of yet. I did recieve the Surplus Supply Top link and it seems like it would workk ok. But after looking over the info, I like that the Prince Wizard cylinder is 2" and seems to have a lot more force that the 1.5" surplus cylinder. Also I liked that you have not experienced any leakdown.
I think the 2X8 Wizard cylinder would work, it is about .25 inches longer that the surplus and 1" longer that the original toplink fully retracted.
I've come to the conclusion that there is no other viable way to get tilt without having two tilt cylinders on my BX. The 2X4 Prince Wizard cylinder would be about 14.75" fully retracted..about .75" shorter than the fixed link lenght of 15.5". This would give more lift. The two cylinders would give me tilt in either direction.
The cost will be a lot more...with the cost of two cylinders, hoses, connections, and another valve and installation kit. Such is life when you want something.
So my next step is to contact Baum and order, then make up the clevis brackets ( stock steel ok?) and get things welded.
Let me know if I am missing anything...thanks...
Larry

 

[JSUnlimited]

Larry,

Yeah I studied the Surplus Center catalogue far many hours trying to decide on a cylinder and then I stumbled across the Baum company. I have always liked the looks of the Prince cylinders and fortunately Baum got me what I wanted.

I'm not for sure how the cylinders will mount on the BX, but I used the swivel ends from TSC and fabbed the clevis out of stock steel. Works fine!

I know that my NH TC is larger in size than your BX, but the 4" stroke works great for me. I put the tilt cylinder on the right side as I usually look over my right shoulder. Having said that, I adjusted my fixed (adjustable) link on the left side such that when the implement in use is level, I have 2 inches of travel either way on the tilt cylinder. This has worked out for me well when building swales and such with the box blade, adjusting plum on the post hole digger, etc. If I need more tilt than the cylinder can give, then I usually can use the adjustable link to compensate for the short stroke. I too really like the set-up of the guys who used two cylinders, but I was on a tight budget for the whole thing. I am more than pleased with the whole project.

Hopefully as the valve and cylinders wear, mainly the valve, I won't have any bleed down issues. In over a year of hard use, it is still pretty tight and the cylinders stay where they are put.

I say call Baums' and get the Prince cylinders. Make sure whoever welds on them, they know what they are doing to avoid burning the seals out of the cylinders! The guy who did mine working in the coal mines for years on dozers, and he knew what he was doing!

Good luck. If you need any more detailed pics or info, don't hesitate to PM me or post a message. I have a daily routine that includes checking this site!

 

[Henro]

sailnseagulls,

Just a couple more thoughts that relate to the above discussion.

Tilt cylinder diameter is not really a concern, because there is no down pressure on the 3PH until you reach the end of the stroke of the 3PH mechanism. This has never been an issue in my case. I actually ended up with 2.75 inch tilt cylinders, because they were available cheap from Prince at the time. An advantage of larger diameter cylinders is that they move slower and may be easier to control, than smaller diameter cylinders. On a BX maybe not an issue. Some people have stated they needed to install flow restrictors to prevent jumpy movement on their tilt/top link cylinders on tractors the size of mine. With larger diameter cylinders like I ended up with, I have found no such need. A negative might be that the larger diameter cylinders are bulkier. I have found this to be true, but not an issue for me. They also take more fluid to fill them, so the smaller the tractor the more you need to pay attention to HST fluid level when you first use (read fill from the tractor) them.

Something to keep in mind is that there are a lot of people out there that have ONE tilt cylinder with 4" stroke, and they are quite happy with it. At least that is what my memory tells me. If I am wrong someone will speak up I am sure.

With two tilt cylinders you can get the same tilt as someone with one tilt cylinder, using cylinders that have half the stroke that someone with one cylinder has. So if 4" stroke would work with one cylinder, you could get the same tilt with two cylinders that had a short 2" stroke.

One issue with a short 2" stroke cylinder that may be a concern is heating that occurs when welding the clevis ends on. I know with mine I had to take care and cool things down between beads to prevent seal damage on the rod end, and that was with 4" stroke cylinders. At that time I thought to myself that I was glad I had the extra 2" of rod length.

For small tractors like we have, common mild steel seems to be satisfactory for clevis ends welded on the cylinders. No problem in my case anyway.

I am not sure if it was referred to above or not, and I don't post here enough anymore to remember how to insert a URL....but anyway, here is the link a thread that shows the path I took to get my T&T up and running. Note that some of the links I referred to in this thread no longer work after the TBN transition to new and better...

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/44732-never-ending-t-t-path.html?highlight=ending+path

Hope this helps...

 

[sailnseagulls]

Henro,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I understand what you mean about down pressure maybe not being an issue but I was also thinking about the other cylinder holding the weight in a retracted position. My way of thinking was bigger is better.
With the bigger cylinder (2") I was going to order 1/4" hoses which from reading here should help with the flow.
I have a provonost dump trailer which has a pretty big cylinder on it. I did worry about filling that, but it turned out not to be a problem. I will fill one cylinder at a time and add fluid as needed to the tractor.
The problem I seem to be having is that I have about 4" of downstroke with the original manual adjust linkage and can adjust up also. With the cylinders, I can only find them small ennough to fit retracted with a 4"stroke. Now...if I put the manual adjust on the other side and adjusted it so 2" of stoke were in the middle, it would work with 2" up or down. But, I lose some tilt in either direction and it sort of defeats the purpose of not having to leave the seat to adjust. Also, by adjusting the manual linkage to the length, I lose some lift height which is important to a BX. That's why I thought 2 cylinders with 4" stroke each.
What do u think?
Larry

 

[sailnseagulls]

Henro,

Forgot to add : I don't have the steel yet for making the clevis ends. Not too sure if its ok to just shape in a vise or if I have to heat and bend, etc. I was going to take the parts and have them welded by a professional as I don't have a welder.
Thanks for the link and I will enjoy reading it.

Larry

 

[3RRL]

Henro,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I understand what you mean about down pressure maybe not being an issue but I was also thinking about the other cylinder holding the weight in a retracted position. My way of thinking was bigger is better.
With the bigger cylinder (2") I was going to order 1/4" hoses which from reading here should help with the flow.
I have a provonost dump trailer which has a pretty big cylinder on it. I did worry about filling that, but it turned out not to be a problem. I will fill one cylinder at a time and add fluid as needed to the tractor.
The problem I seem to be having is that I have about 4" of downstroke with the original manual adjust linkage and can adjust up also. With the cylinders, I can only find them small ennough to fit retracted with a 4"stroke. Now...if I put the manual adjust on the other side and adjusted it so 2" of stoke were in the middle, it would work with 2" up or down. But, I lose some tilt in either direction and it sort of defeats the purpose of not having to leave the seat to adjust. Also, by adjusting the manual linkage to the length, I lose some lift height which is important to a BX. That's why I thought 2 cylinders with 4" stroke each.
What do u think?
Larry

Personally, I like the idea of having 2 hydraulic tilt cylinders. You have the ability for so much more control and literally take away getting out of the seat to adjust the fixed link. I am not familiar with your BX so this may not apply? How do your upper lift arms attach? Is there a splined shaft that runs through your hydraulic lift box where you could take the upper lift arms off and re-position them? If so, you could take them off the spline and re-position them so they are lower than they are now. That would lift the three point higher than now and you could use those longer cylinders, giving you the same upwards clearance. I don't know that you can do that on your BX or not, but that's what I did and I ended up getting longer stroke cylinders to boot....and they were big too. Of course, my tractor is larger than yours though. Anyway, just a thought. Here is a link to the thread where I did mine. Might give you some added information or stuff to think about.
Adding Hydraulic Side Links