Tier 4 Machines

[curtisfarmer]

Looked at new machines yesterday, specifically M7040, M59, and the M8560/9660. The new emmission stuff is scary to contemplate buying. I have a newer Ford F450 dumper with all the emmission stuff and wish it didn't and now looking at tractors I feel the same way. The last batch of M7040s without the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and other junk are still available but not so for anything bigger. As I consider what to do about my ailing L48 (fix/sell) I am now concerned if I don't do something soon I will be forced into one of these DPF tractors as I was told very shortly anything but 25HP and less will all be the DPF way. Don't have the $ to fix L48 if big fix and buy new machine. Thoughts on the new DPF machines Tier 4?

As a side not, I just finished plowing 3 hours with my new L48 and it did remind me that HST is the way to go when doing repetitive tasks such as plowing and loader work. I had been wondering how a shuttle shift would tickle my fancy in this application and I am convinced HST is better for me. BUT.....L48/M59 are the biggest machines with HST and anything else will be shuttle.

 

[kuboman]

Can't imagine why you would say that HST is the way to go for plowing?? Loader work yes but even at that a hydraulic shuttle works ok but for plowing hst is not the answer. As for tier 4, it as an absolute nightmare that not only costs more initially but will have huge costs later on. Thank your EPA.

 

[ozley]

Edit sorry

 

[curtisfarmer]

I plow front and back, incredible effeciency and productivity. While plowing this AM I realized the response time is much faster. I use a spinner nob on the wheel, control forward and reverse with right foot, and loader/ rear blade with right arm. I think shuttle tranny would increase that time. I can go forward and back almost instantly while still controlling loader/ rear blade. I plow about 17+/- driveways and roads, so time makes a difference. Same with bush hogging which I do alot of, back up, go forward, back up, go forward while raising lowering mower. I cannot see how a shuttle would improve that.

Regarding Tier 4, your comment about huge costs later is a major point that I forgot to mention. I agree 100% and that is why I am afraid. I am assuming these DPFs and other emmission stuff will fail out of warranty leaving an owner open to huge repair bills. As these tractors get more fancy, HST, DPF, everything electronic it seems that the days of owning a tractor for 20 years with repairs that can be done in house or by a qualified mechanic are gone. I am starting to think owning a tractor then getting rid of it after 5-7 years or 1,500+ hours is the only way to go to avoid these expensive maintenece issues. If you face a HST, DPF, or other major repair you have taken/ incurred a financially fatal ownership challenge.

 

[gwdixon]

curtisfarmer: I think kuboman thought "plowing" meant dirt work rather than snow work.

 

[ovrszd]

I searched and found my 9540 last Fall. Then it was getting hard to find a non-Tier IV. Sure it's worse now.

I really don't have a fear of it. I was just trying to escape the additional purchase cost.

I run a JD770G grader that's Tier IV. Each manufacturer controls the particulate filter cleaning process a little different so this statement only applies to Deere construction equipment. The filter automatically cleans about every 15-20 hours. When I'm doing normal road maintenance I run in 5th gear, 1500rpm. When the clean cycle comes on if I continue to run at that low of rpm it goes into a HP robbing phase to create enough heat to clean. It starts the cleaning process and then after a couple minutes detects that it can't create enough exhaust heat. So it goes into phase II which robs about 20% of the available power. This process lasts for about 15 minutes. I've figured out when it starts cleaning if I gear down and ramp up the rpms to full throttle it will clean without a loss of power. I'm creating the necessary heat thru engine speed so it doesn't need to alter the fuel timing or whatever it does to heat up. All of this is rather complicated and I wouldn't want to have to deal with it in my utility tractor. But eventually we all will.


Edit: After reading Curtis' post I want to add. John Deere says the particulate filter on our grader costs $5000. They also recommend it be replaced at 5000 hours.

 

[kuboman]

Yes I thought you meant dirt. I retract my comment about hst. It is far superior for you use.:thumbsup:

 

[cmbertrand]

I just hauled off and bought the m6040 for some of the same reasons you mentioned. My tc40das was needing the 3pt cylinders rebuilt, starter was needing replace and a few other things but most of my decision was the increase in hp which would allow me to get my cutting done faster. The emmisions stuff also helped sway me but not that much because there is plenty of second hand stuff out there. Big hurdle was to give up hst. Will pickup tractor next week and hook the cutter up.

 

[SDT]

I will not touch any of the Tier IV stuff or anything that requires DEF, particulate filters, etc.

Last fall I bought a new 62 HP Massey Ferguson that I do not yet need because I could still get Tier II.

Currently I am sitting on a NH T4050 Deluxe with 46 hours rather than selling it because its value is being driven up quickly by the emissions nonsense. I expect it to be worth 2 - 3K more next year than now and may sell it then.

SDT

 

[DutchHenryBrown]

Can this tier 4 system be removed or disconnected once you get the unit home?

 

[kuboman]

Can this tier 4 system be removed or disconnected once you get the unit home?

I doubt that all this can be deleted at least not yet. Most the emissions on the new T4 engines are electronically controlled which makes getting rid of the mechanical stuff impossible. Until someone comes up with a work around for the electronics we are all hooped. On top of that it won't be long before big brother makes it a crime to mess with the emissions on tractors like they have on vehicles.

 

[bandit67]

The biggest problem is going to be the lack of aftermarket options for removing that emissions stuff. Vehicles have aftermarket companies spending their own money on R&D and working out the kinks. Doubt there will be many options for that on tractors, so there will be a lot of experimentation by individual owners.

I made a trade this past November because I didn't want a Tier 4 tractor. Bad enough I have it on my F250, and have no idea if I'll be able to keep that for 10 years. I used to work on my old 7.3L, but am not too excited about the thought of having to dig through all that junk on top of the motor before I can even see the valley on the new one, and am very concerned with the parts costs for the newer truck. I like my "old fashioned" 2012 pre-Tier 4 tractor.

 

[Herkypilot]

Edit: After reading Curtis' post I want to add. John Deere says the particulate filter on our grader costs $5000. They also recommend it be replaced at 5000 hours.

Well isn't that just grand of the EPA adding $1 to each hour of tractor use. Pure Genius.

 

[rScotty]

Looked at new machines yesterday, specifically M7040, M59, and the M8560/9660. The new emmission stuff is scary to contemplate buying. I have a newer Ford F450 dumper with all the emmission stuff and wish it didn't and now looking at tractors I feel the same way. The last batch of M7040s without the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and other junk are still available but not so for anything bigger. As I consider what to do about my ailing L48 (fix/sell) I am now concerned if I don't do something soon I will be forced into one of these DPF tractors as I was told very shortly anything but 25HP and less will all be the DPF way. Don't have the $ to fix L48 if big fix and buy new machine. Thoughts on the new DPF machines Tier 4?

Yes, I've got some thoughts on Tier 4 and would like to hear others too.
I was suspicious of the Tier 4 standards myself so I read up on them and that made me feel better. Mainly I couldn't understand how our M59 could call itself any kind of Tier 4 and still not have particulate filter or really anything much in the way of emissions control hardware at all.

Reading into Tier 4 made me feel sort of odd. Call me a crank, but I've can't remember the last time I read any regulation that made me feel better.

But as I understand it, Tier 4 sets standards for particulate emission, but doesn't specify how the manufacturer has to meet those standards. It just sets limits how many particles emitted and defines how to count 'em. For an old independent engineering cuss like myself I like that kind freedom in meeting regulatory requirements. And speaking frankly..... as much as I like diesels, I do hate the traditional diesel smoke and stink.

What I like about Tier 4 is that along with less smoke there is freedom to explore new ways of doing things. That means one manufacturer can decide to invest minimal R&D dollars, and still use a traditional well-respected diesel motor that they already know inside and out. Such an older engine may not be all that efficient at burning fuel, but it has other advantages. All they have to do is to filter out the particles before they get out the smoke stack. That works for me.

Another manufacturer can spend more R&D dollars into changing the way that the fuel burns in the combustion chamber in order to burn it more completely. Those guys are trying to meet Tier 4 by producing less smoke in the first place. There are never any guarantees with any R&D, but apparently it worked for the M59 because it doesn't have a particulate filter and not much in the way of any emission control hardware. That works for me too.

YMMV,
rScotty

 

[rbargeron]

Thanks for the lucid post.